Cropped/Docked or Natural?

[Kat09Tails]

I've never really understood the whole cropping/docking/circumcision parallels. Apples to Oranges, I say.

I agree with that.

My main objection to cropping will always be how unneeded it is vs the amount of pain it causes. When I worked at the vet office in Colorado the old doc who ran the place was a very skilled cropper and would get people traveling a decent number of miles to see him. For some reason that summer we got in a ton of mini schnauzers and dane pups for crops. So I'd take a happy healthy perfectly normal puppy back, drug it, shave and clean it's ears, watch the vet slice off that ear, slice off that other ear, cauterize the big bleeders, compare the two to make sure they match and clean up any bad edges and watch them stitch up the edges. Then I would have to be the one who sat with them as they woke up and started the head shaking. The worst that just hacked me off were the dogs coming in for their second, or even one time a 3rd crop because the last vet didn't cut it just the way they wanted, for some reason the last vet didn't quite get it matched enough, or posting failed.

After that vet passed away that particular clinic no longer did crops but would assist with taping ears if it was needed.

Docking I don't consider in the same boat as cropping because it still most of the time has an actual purpose outside of how it looks.

 

[HayleyMarie]

I love this point!

Someone was recently debating me regarding docking of Rottweilers, and one of his major points was that having tails gave rotties a better public image and made them more approachable. To me, that is a ridiculous reason to change a long standing breed standard. I did not chose this breed because of what other people would think of my dog. If people are ignorant enough to think that a dog is "different" just because it's tail was left intact, then those aren't folks I want around my dog anyways! Education is the key to combating breed bias - not changing the standard to make the breed more appealing to Joe Public.

I agee with Leah and MKHT.

When I was thinking about getting a Cane Corso. I decided I wanted to look for a breeder that D/C. I find the dog who have natural ears look to approchable and goofy to me.

They are suppose to look like fierce protectors not a dog that enjoys everyone and their moms coming up to the him. I dont want a dog that looks approachable.

And also I pefer the look of cropped ears and docked tail. I like how it makes the dog look more edgy and hard.

One of the main reasons I was looking into CC is because they are a protector/guardian breed and I want it to look like one. Same goes with Dobes

 

[Chewbecca]

To my understanding, most APBT people that show their dogs and crop only do so because their dog's ears won't sit correctly.
Natural APBT ears are typically always preferred natural by most reputable APBT people, but crops are necessary if the dog's ears do not sit right. This is for show, I believe.

I might not even know a dobe is a dobe if its ears are not cropped. hahahaha.
Ben prefers dobes with natural ears (he's owned one cropped and one with natural), I, however, do NOT. Dobes must be cropped. Yes. And properly so.

 

[Renee750il]

Gotta say I am SO glad my breeds aren't in the crop/dock pool. I really don't know how I feel about it, other than I think it's something that needs to be left up to those who deal with those breeds.

 

[SizzleDog]

Oh - and my personal preference for the APBT.... natural eared. I don't mind if someone crops, but there's just something about that correct ABPT head with those non-pointy ears.... yummy!

 

[Chewbecca]

I won't personally crop any APBT's ears I ever get (the wonkier, the better, imo).
Terriers, in general, have some of the best natural ears, EVER.

 

[PitBullLove]

I agree with that.

My main objection to cropping will always be how unneeded it is vs the amount of pain it causes. When I worked at the vet office in Colorado the old doc who ran the place was a very skilled cropper and would get people traveling a decent number of miles to see him. For some reason that summer we got in a ton of mini schnauzers and dane pups for crops. So I'd take a happy healthy perfectly normal puppy back, drug it, shave and clean it's ears, watch the vet slice off that ear, slice off that other ear, cauterize the big bleeders, compare the two to make sure they match and clean up any bad edges and watch them stitch up the edges. Then I would have to be the one who sat with them as they woke up and started the head shaking. The worst that just hacked me off were the dogs coming in for their second, or even one time a 3rd crop because the last vet didn't cut it just the way they wanted, for some reason the last vet didn't quite get it matched enough, or posting failed.

After that vet passed away that particular clinic no longer did crops but would assist with taping ears if it was needed.

Docking I don't consider in the same boat as cropping because it still most of the time has an actual purpose outside of how it looks.

I agree with you and see where you are coming from. I worked with a Boxer breeder of 40 years for a while, and also worked with an APBT breeder of 30 years. I have seen a home docking job. And the APBT breeder I worked with had pictures of a home crop job...not done by the breeder I worked with, but done by a breeder she knew who offered to do it to her puppies for her, claiming it was relatively painless. So he did it on his litter for her to see first. He was experienced with it and had done it many times, but their poor tiny ears were chopped off and in the pictures they were cowering together in a corner. Now that is terrible, and people DO do it, because crops are expensive. While I had good experiences with the APBT breeder, and the puppies did not seem to be in too much pain (she required that if the new owner wanted the ears cropped she would get it done by her experienced vet so it wouldn't be painful and so the dog wouldn't be "ruined" as she called it), although some did seem to dislike the feeling quite a bit - seeing, experiencing and hearing about the practices done to Boxers was not a good experience for me. It is actually the reason I stopped showing dogs in AKC (besides the fact that the Boxer show ring in AKC is absolute BS, the people and the judges). AKC, not too long ago, required all white puppies to be killed. Not adopted out to pet homes, killed. And the breeder I worked with used to drown them the moment the were born. I have seen some beautiful crop jobs done to Boxers, but it WAS painful for quite a few, including a gorgeous fawn boy that I finished. He had to have a cup on his head and he hated it, and he was in a lot of pain from it. Although the crop was perfect and he was gorgeous and did wonderful in the show ring...it's sad he had to go through that pain, and said AKC prefers (almost requires) a crop in Boxers, Dobes & Danes.

They're just innocent little puppies, ya know?

I know someone who literally left her job being a vet because she was so traumatized from cropping a litter of Cocker Spaniel's tails. They are not put to sleep, it's done while they are completely awake and aware of what is going on. And it is painful for them. They scream. They have nerves in their tail, even when they are tiny. My opinion on docking depends on how it is done. I don't oppose to tying them with rubber bands and cutting off the circulation, but I do oppose to other ways it is done.

I have also seen some really HORRIFIC things done to dogs that have to do with cropping & docking when I worked at an animal shelter in Illinois.

Now, even after saying all of these things, I cannot say I am completely "opposed" to it...but I do think it is unnecesary. I think dogs with properly cropped ears are GORGEOUS...and I don't really know where I stand with this.

 

[Xandra]

I lurve bat ears on pit bulls

I also like a short crop where there is a crop. Dobe and dane crops aren't my favorite.

And Boxers I like natural. Kangals I like cropped. If I had a corso, it would definitely be cropped but definitely not docked.

 

[Ratboy]

I saw a Doberman at Petsmart yesterday with natural ears and a tail! I liked it. The owners said it was a purebred dog, and he sure looked like he was. I've never seen one that was "natural" before. There's a Rott in my neighborhood with a tail, and I greatly prefer it over the "normal" Rott look.

 

[SizzleDog]

None of our dobe puppies have ever minded the cups. In fact, the siblings would usually use the cups as something to grab onto for better wrestling holds!

I do wonder if it comes down to the pain tolerances of certain breeds... because for everyone saying how painful and traumatic it is, I've seen tons of Doberman puppies after they've been cropped... and they're all running around and playing afterwards. Running into walls and not so much as a peep from them.

Tidbit about the American standard - when it says "ears normally cropped" - it means "cropped in the normal fashion" - doesn't mean "usually cropped." So technically, the Doberman standard doesn't make room for natural ears.

Will America ban cropping? I'm sure it'll happen, someday... and for me, that'll be a sad day. Not because cropping itself will be banned, but that another one of my rights will have been taken away.

 

[kady05]

To my understanding, most APBT people that show their dogs and crop only do so because their dog's ears won't sit correctly.
Natural APBT ears are typically always preferred natural by most reputable APBT people, but crops are necessary if the dog's ears do not sit right. This is for show, I believe.

I might not even know a dobe is a dobe if its ears are not cropped. hahahaha.
Ben prefers dobes with natural ears (he's owned one cropped and one with natural), I, however, do NOT. Dobes must be cropped. Yes. And properly so.

Well, ADBA style APBT's are generally never cropped, just not their style. UKC/AKC APBT/Am Staffs generally are.. it is very rare to see a natural earred dog showing in AKC (in UKC I've seen a few).

You really never know how a pups ears will turn out, which is one reason people crop them. Since it's so popular and the majority of breeders DO crop, Am Staffs aren't really bred for nice ears anymore. When I was talking to my breeder about Sako, and on the fence about whether or not to crop, I asked her if she knew what any of his relatives ears were like. She had no clue because they had all been cropped, so it would've been a huge risk to leave him natural and end up with "bad" ears (which judging by how they looked at 9wks., and how his sister with natural ears looks, would've been bound to happen). So, I chose to crop. I really do love how it looks on him.

 

[Laurelin]

No it wasn't hard at all. Really he was one of the first ones I considered when I started seriously looking. It doesn't seem uncommon for some puppies in a litter to be left natural and some to be docked/cropped. I don't think PyrShep are cropped prior to sale, unless you get an older pup or request the breeder have it done. I could be wrong about that though. Savvy's brother is a docked and cropped RF. His parents are both cropped/docked but his mother's littermates are all natural. The PyrShep standard says natural vs. cropped/docked are equally acceptable. I see them all different ways at the shows here. Today an all natural RF was BOB over a decent entry at a local show.

That's good to know! I noticed it seemed more optional in pyr sheps than most breeds. I wish other breeds there was more of an option. It seems like you can get stuck cropping and docking if you really want a well bred dog of certain breeds.

I wouldn't totally rule out the perfect pyr shep pup if it was docked and cropped but I just really prefer them not to be. Especially the smooth faces.

 

[puppydog]

For the record. Dogs have no emotional preference about being natural or altered, so therefore the foreskin debate is moot.

 

[Saeleofu]

I generally prefer the look of a docked tail, but I am glad Gavroche has his tail. It definitely gives him more personality.

As far as ears, for the most part I can go either way. I do prefer SBTs with natural ears, and Dogos with natural ears. But otherwise, it really doesn't matter based purely on looks. That is assuming it's done well. A bad crop job is not attractive.

 

[PlottMom]

(bitches after a spay show more signs of pain than puppies when docked, and in both cases you are removing a part of them for human, not dog, benefit)

I'm really not trying to be snarky or anything, just to do the best by my dog.... my bitch will be 8 in September... I have no intentions of breeding her, and she goes through really (what I can only assume are, because she acts it) miserable false pregnancies after every. heat. cycle. (I'm talking lactating & just general grumpiness and lethargy). My vet has recommended she be spayed at this point before she needs an emergency spay for a pyo - do you have any information that would reverse my decision on this? Because I really feel like I'm making the best choice for my dog & the rest of the household....

ETA: sorry for hijacking

 

[kady05]

I'm really not trying to be snarky or anything, just to do the best by my dog.... my bitch will be 8 in September... I have no intentions of breeding her, and she goes through really (what I can only assume are, because she acts it) miserable false pregnancies after every. heat. cycle. (I'm talking lactating & just general grumpiness and lethargy). My vet has recommended she be spayed at this point before she needs an emergency spay for a pyo - do you have any information that would reverse my decision on this? Because I really feel like I'm making the best choice for my dog & the rest of the household....

ETA: sorry for hijacking

You are. Pyo is NOT fun and can be deadly. Yes there is some pain after surgery but it'll be well worth it to not have to worry about Pyo, etc. anymore!

 

[Aleron]

That's good to know! I noticed it seemed more optional in pyr sheps than most breeds. I wish other breeds there was more of an option. It seems like you can get stuck cropping and docking if you really want a well bred dog of certain breeds.

I wouldn't totally rule out the perfect pyr shep pup if it was docked and cropped but I just really prefer them not to be. Especially the smooth faces.

I sort of felt the same way as far as cropping/docking with them. Like I said, their crop is sort of odd and looks...different on smooth faces for sure. Of course, some have "bad" ears per the standard when left natural.

I really like the acceptance of natural vs. cropped/docked in the breed. It really is all about personal preference.

I'm really not trying to be snarky or anything, just to do the best by my dog.... my bitch will be 8 in September... I have no intentions of breeding her, and she goes through really (what I can only assume are, because she acts it) miserable false pregnancies after every. heat. cycle. (I'm talking lactating & just general grumpiness and lethargy). My vet has recommended she be spayed at this point before she needs an emergency spay for a pyo - do you have any information that would reverse my decision on this? Because I really feel like I'm making the best choice for my dog & the rest of the household.... )

I think this outlines the benefits and the risks of spaying/neutering pretty well:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

 

[Dekka]

I'm really not trying to be snarky or anything, just to do the best by my dog.... my bitch will be 8 in September... I have no intentions of breeding her, and she goes through really (what I can only assume are, because she acts it) miserable false pregnancies after every. heat. cycle. (I'm talking lactating & just general grumpiness and lethargy). My vet has recommended she be spayed at this point before she needs an emergency spay for a pyo - do you have any information that would reverse my decision on this? Because I really feel like I'm making the best choice for my dog & the rest of the household....

ETA: sorry for hijacking

if she is miserable etc then that could be seen as a benefit to her, but the same as people who have dogs who break open their tails all the time. I fixed Dekka after her c section with the Dekklets. But then I also have no issues with docking puppies. (and mine don't carry on and scream... other breeds may be different)

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I generally prefer the look of a docked tail, but I am glad Gavroche has his tail. It definitely gives him more personality.

As far as ears, for the most part I can go either way. I do prefer SBTs with natural ears, and Dogos with natural ears. But otherwise, it really doesn't matter based purely on looks. That is assuming it's done well. A bad crop job is not attractive.

Don't worry, no body crops SBT. Well, some people will crop anything (I've seen Shar pei and rotts cropped even) but SBT are not an option for breed.

Rebecca, you're correct, unless the ears are mismatched apbt tend to stay natural as they should be.

 

[Doberluv]

Who says cropped ears aren't expressive since they can't flop? Cropped ears can still flop when called for. lol.

The idea that copping and docking makes dogs less expressive is the most ridiculous misconception ever. Upright ears are incredibly alert and can zero in on sounds better than drop ears. The cone of hearing is much better. The tiniest nuances of signals...a little flick here, a little tilt there are so apparent to those who see. And those nubby tails are so telling. When I think of my heart dog, Lyric, whom I miss so very much, and someone implies that these alterations make dogs less expressive, I just have to laugh at how they're 180 degrees wrong. And as far as balance, there's hardly a dog any more athletic than a well put together Doberman. If their balance was off because of a short tail, they couldn't be the athletic dogs they are. I believe that's a wives "tale."

Hasn't anyone else gone for the turned up nose look? Here, we're working on it.