would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

Zoom

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Does anyone else agree with the notion that this thread is operating from two different ideas of what constitutes "dog aggression"? Is it a correct assumption that bully-breed DA is a little different from say, Golden Ret. DA, by virtue of the breeding genetics?
 

adojrts

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Does anyone else agree with the notion that this thread is operating from two different ideas of what constitutes "dog aggression"? Is it a correct assumption that bully-breed DA is a little different from say, Golden Ret. DA, by virtue of the breeding genetics?
Yes absolutely.
I think there are some breeds that have been bred over all these years to go into a zone of auto aggression or at the very least to have the ability to go into this state. They have little or no regard to their own safety or well being. It can be compared to what is called reptilian, no thinking only a auto respond to a hardwired trigger i.e slap the water and the gator attacks and snaps its jaws. I also believe that some dogs have been born this way with or without the help of man breeding a dog for a specific job and thinking it is 'prey drive or fight drive'.
I too have seen the disassociated state of glazed eyes and no awareness of their surroundings with the intent of one goal...........get to prey.
I have seen this in horses (not many), a few dogs and people........dangerous.
I believe (although not sure) that this is called a Manic espisode/state in humans.
 
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. AN RA dog can easily be inspired to be a DA dog with careless handling. AN RA dog is most likely an alpha. I have had many alphas and they can learn to go beyond their gut instinct.
. QUOTE]

I don't agree with this at all, on any level. In my experiences RA are non confident and very unsure of how they should behave. RA dogs are often the product of many (or one) bad experiences. I also believe that even with the best training and understanding of DA/RA, that one too many bad experiences (to be clear the RA being jumped) can push the RA dog past its threshold with the end results being a DA dog.
In my experiences Alpha dogs/bitches are not aggressive. They know they are alpha and they know from birth, imo. If challenged they will fight but typically it doesn't go that far, they start with warnings. Or if it does it ends quickly. I have also found that if they are constantly being challenged by another dog, the fight is messy and if allowed to continue, it will be a fight to the death.
True Alpha's are generally the easiest to live with, its the subordinates that are trying to climb to a higher position within the 'pack', that often cause the most problems.
My reactive dog??? Never causes problems with his housemates/pack or with dogs that he knows. And his social skills with those dogs are excellent.
I completely agree with you, Ado . . . You're describing Bimmer and Kharma perfectly. Both of them totally self-confident, tolerant within certain parameters and they'd prefer to discipline without bloodshed.

Tallulah seems to be shaping up to be another version of the same thing, and I'm very glad of it, as a confident dog is MUCH easier to live with than a fearful one.

Something that really torques me is how we love to label defensive behavior as aggressive. There's a big difference, and there are few truly AGGRESSIVE dogs. Most of the behavior we label as such is really the dog reacting in a defensive manner.
 

Saintgirl

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But the trigger is different. ONe responds to triggers, one does not need one a trigger to be set off.
No, I disagree. Both need a trigger to be set off. Just because you can't see the trigger or do not understand it does not mean it is not there. The trigger could simply be the other dog, but either way it is a trigger.

Adojrts, I couldn't agree more with you on the alpha, reactive issue.

Behavioral studies are not nearly as simple or cut and dry as "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck- then it must be a duck".
 

Dekka

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I don't agree with this at all, on any level. In my experiences RA are non confident and very unsure of how they should behave.
Very true. Dekka is reactive do to her fear. She is afraid of new dogs. And with good and valid reason. She has exemplary manners and is one of the most tolerant dogs I have ever met with dogs she knows and does not fear.

Kaiden is very confident. Knows he is 'the man' and get along well with others. Due to a few incidents with a yellow lab (with HORRID manners that kept showing up here) he is very 'strict' with yellow retrievers-but is in no way DA. That could change-he is a terrier. But as he is going to be 5 soon, I am hoping not.
 

corgipower

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Something that really torques me is how we love to label defensive behavior as aggressive. There's a big difference, and there are few truly AGGRESSIVE dogs. Most of the behavior we label as such is really the dog reacting in a defensive manner.
Yea, there's aggression and there's aggressive behavior. Aggressive behavior can stem from unwarranted rage, from alpha status that isn't respected, from fear/defensiveness, from prey drive, from reactivity and uncertainty, from gameness, from misdirection and frustration.

As far as a description of my dog, I refer to any aggressive behavior towards dogs as DA. I act accordingly in managing my dog and his environment regardless of the reason for the aggression.

From a training perspective, I assess the type of aggression I'm dealing with and address it depending on the underlying cause.
 

Chewbecca

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I wasn't talking about biting people?
Sorry, I get confused sometimes as to whether or not some people here really KNOW there is a difference between human aggression and dog aggression, and whether or not they know that one can exist without the other.

So, when you said, "aggressive dog", I just wasn't sure if you knew the difference. And that's NOT an insult to your intelligence, either. Some people who post here don't believe there is a difference.
 

SizzleDog

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I know that many MANY people have multi-dog households with DA dogs; Sizzle, Elegy, Dekka, Marty just to name a few. It can be done. I guess the question is, where is the balance between "know thy dog" and "exception to the rules"?
Yep - Ronin is a wonderful pet. He's a great house dog, and he's under control when we're outside the house. But he is MDA. He also cannot be trusted around little yappy dogs, but that's more of a prey thing.

His DA is under control, but I *never* forget it's not there, or lie to myself by saying it's not there anymore. His trigger is proximity - if a dog he doesn't know gets too close to him, he WILL try to start something. And he cannot be trusted around other males, with the exception of young puppies. It has taken him two years to get used to Jack the English Setter, and when they play it's highly controlled.

Now, Ronin also has situational HA - he's a Doberman, it's what his instincts tell him to do, and no amount of training will make that HA go away. I say situational because as long as you're not trying to break in or hurt me, he's A-OK. But he is vigilant for any shenanigans... and as Sada's hubby knows, he has no problem charging someone who is sneaking around. If there hadn't been a very tall baby gate between Ronin and Sada's hubby that night... hubby would have been bitten.
 

smkie

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IF ra dogs were labed ra at shelters and not DA they might have a chance. IF people knew what they were approaching and how to work with it. I agree with REnee that there really are very few true DA dogs.
THat is what i am trying to say. I was over at my mom's discussing this with her. SHe said there was a pitty that my dad brought home long before i was born. SHe said that dog was no sooner out of the car then it was on the dog across the street. THat fast. WHat VIrgo did with the toy here with Pepper was be food agressive. ALl of that can be worked with, with strong leadership and diligent obedience.

She said my dad took the dog away and dumped it somewhere. Sounds about right for my dad. :(:mad: I watched this video on line and i started to post it here and then retracted because i do not want to suggest a man's training methods i haven't seen from beginning to end. But in the partial video he showed a litter of puppies, and explained pack theory. He showed three of those puppies removed into a small room and given one bone. He showed that even at that young of an age you can see "agression" and he stated this behavior is NOT BREED SPECIFIC. There is a great deal he said that i found myself in full agreement with..however i can't say what his methods are because he doesn't show them. THe beginning tho would be very informative to anyone trying to understand how a pack is set up, the ranking, and why it is so critically important with dogs that tend to be leaders and strong willed to be trained very carefully. IF i can find out more about him and see if i agree with how he goes about it i will come back and post.

WE did have two labs, two siblings that were at the kennels that came in from Wyoming for training. THey were slanty eyed maniacs. ANd were sent back because both were seriously dA. I think some bad bad breeding went into that mix. IMO a part of it is hard wired but only part. DOgs that are strong willed can be worked with but you have to be ultra insistant acceptable behavior. WHen Pepper and Virgo got into a fight here...i put both of their noggins on the ground. I was furious. I had had a very small squirrel in my hands and am bruised up pretty good from breaking it up. I had a headache and went and layed down. Sawyer MAry and Victor were on the bed with me. Pepper was in the other room because she was scolding and knew she was in trouble. Virgo was under my desk..thinking OMG I SCREWED UP BIG TIME..you should have seen her. So i called Pepper first. SHe is in my pack, above Virgo who is our guest. I was watching Virgo with one eye and she was watching me..with them...i waited about 5 minutes then i called her in and welcomed her beside me where i started t touch massage. A dominant dog needs to know it doesnt' run the show. ANd there was peace in my house from then on, even tho i did not remove the toy that caused the problem. I picked it up and tossed it to Victor. For all to see. ANd he didn't want it so it sat there by itself the rest of the day. I had made my point as the big not to be messed with boss of this house. All that can be carefully worked out. THat is different from what my mom described about the dog my father brought home. THe dog across the street she said didnt' even see it coming and the damage was bad.
 

adojrts

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IF ra dogs were labed ra at shelters and not DA they might have a chance. IF people knew what they were approaching and how to work with it. I agree with REnee that there really are very few true DA dogs.
THat is what i am trying to say. I was over at my mom's discussing this with her. SHe said there was a pitty that my dad brought home long before i was born. SHe said that dog was no sooner out of the car then it was on the dog across the street. THat fast. WHat VIrgo did with the toy here with Pepper was be food agressive. ALl of that can be worked with, with strong leadership and diligent obedience.

She said my dad took the dog away and dumped it somewhere. Sounds about right for my dad. :(:mad: I watched this video on line and i started to post it here and then retracted because i do not want to suggest a man's training methods i haven't seen from beginning to end. But in the partial video he showed a litter of puppies, and explained pack theory. He showed three of those puppies removed into a small room and given one bone. He showed that even at that young of an age you can see "agression" and he stated this behavior is NOT BREED SPECIFIC. There is a great deal he said that i found myself in full agreement with..however i can't say what his methods are because he doesn't show them. THe beginning tho would be very informative to anyone trying to understand how a pack is set up, the ranking, and why it is so critically important with dogs that tend to be leaders and strong willed to be trained very carefully. IF i can find out more about him and see if i agree with how he goes about it i will come back and post.

WE did have two labs, two siblings that were at the kennels that came in from Wyoming for training. THey were slanty eyed maniacs. ANd were sent back because both were seriously dA. I think some bad bad breeding went into that mix. IMO a part of it is hard wired but only part. DOgs that are strong willed can be worked with but you have to be ultra insistant acceptable behavior. WHen Pepper and Virgo got into a fight here...i put both of their noggins on the ground. I was furious. I had had a very small squirrel in my hands and am bruised up pretty good from breaking it up. I had a headache and went and layed down. Sawyer MAry and Victor were on the bed with me. Pepper was in the other room because she was scolding and knew she was in trouble. Virgo was under my desk..thinking OMG I SCREWED UP BIG TIME..you should have seen her. So i called Pepper first. SHe is in my pack, above Virgo who is our guest. I was watching Virgo with one eye and she was watching me..with them...i waited about 5 minutes then i called her in and welcomed her beside me where i started t touch massage. A dominant dog needs to know it doesnt' run the show. ANd there was peace in my house from then on, even tho i did not remove the toy that caused the problem. I picked it up and tossed it to Victor. For all to see. ANd he didn't want it so it sat there by itself the rest of the day. I had made my point as the big not to be messed with boss of this house. All that can be carefully worked out. THat is different from what my mom described about the dog my father brought home. THe dog across the street she said didnt' even see it coming and the damage was bad.
Sorry but you are not making a lick of sense to me, guess I must be missing something.
As for a litter of pups and a bone, to deem a dominate pup that gets the bone as aggressive is ridiculous, that pup could very well be an alpha as it matures but that doesn't mean it's DA. Puppies at that stage of life are learning boundries and what works for them etc. If that pup was truely aggressive it would take on an adult and not back down.
A truely aggressive pup is the one that picks on the weaker, submissive pups without cause, the alpha pups rarely do that.
 
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smkie

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i will try one last time...a dog that is reactive aggressive which is most of the dogs i know, with proper leadership and diligent training can learn to control their gut reaction and be good canine citizens. A dog that reacts without being provoked over not territory,not food, not possession, not insult, imo has something much more wrong with it and deserves the label DA. IF all dogs that get in disagreements are labeled DA that would include most of the dogs i know in one way or another. A true DA dog is not like a reactive dog. I believe it is dangerous to society as a whole. IF that doesnt' make sense i give up.
 

doberkim

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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?

would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?

what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?

what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Agreeing with some others, WOW!!!!

Would I willingly own a DA dog? Absolutely - because I have, and currently do.
Would I adopt one known to be? I wouldn't go out seeking one, and because I have a multi-dog household, getting along with the other dogs and animals (cats, caged pets) in the house is the priority. If the dog got along with them, but not other dogs, I would be fine with this.

If my dog suddenly became aggressive, I'd have to reevaluate. Was it really suddenly, or did I miss warnings? Do a full physical, rule out medical reasons. And then train and manage, manage manage.

If my dogs caused damage in public, I would take responsibility.



Now, I'm living with 3 dogs who to some degree, have aggression issues. My 13 year old male came into the house almost a year and a half ago with no issues with my own younger male, but he will and has gone after other dogs - he adores Rah and Berlin, but barely tolerates Mercury and that's as far as his circle goes. I didn't seek him out - and by some miracle, he adores his "brother and sister" - but other dogs are a no no for him.

Hell, I've got three males here - the male-male aggression is written in the breed standard, it's cautioned against everywhere. I already manage them and crate/rotate (or some variant of). Just yesterday, Mercury and Tyler almost got into it when they were accidentally left in the same room together for a few seconds because Mercury slipped through a gate.

Mercury will not tolerate another strange dog coming in his face, and he will react to that. At the same time, the dog can go to shows, the dog has titles, the dog can work off leash, has great attention - but if a dog invades his personal space, he will not tolerate it. He completely ignores all dogs otherwise.

Rah is happy go lucky and does incredibly well for a male - but he is very territorial and will not allow strange dogs in his yard, his house, or around things he considers "his" - and he will not start a fight, but he will certainly respond to one, especially from intact males.



And if my dogs were somehow too aggressive to compete in the sports I like to compete in, then oh well - I love them more than the sport, I can deal with it. I like my multi-dog household and strive to maintain it as peacefully as possible. Do I want DA dogs, do I want multiple males that I cannot leave together, that cannot run together, etc? Nope - but that's what I have right now, so we deal.
 
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Squishy22

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I haven't read the last few pages. This thread sure took off.

But anyway... I just hope that all pit bull owners are emotionally ready and capable to take on a DA dog if the aggression surfaces. You owe it to the dog when you knowingly bring that dog into your home as a family member. All dogs deserve a home of full of love, DA or not!! It upsets me when someone goes out and gets a pit mix and then drops the dog all together if DA surfaces. THAT is betrayal to your dog, period.

Its the same thing as going out and getting a border collie and then kicking him out of the family when his high prey drive becomes too much for you to want to take on. You need to be fully prepared for the breed that you take on. You owe it to the dog...

My dogs are like my kids, and if my neighbors feel threatened of my dogs, then so be it. Thats their problem.
 

Tahla9999

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i will try one last time...a dog that is reactive aggressive which is most of the dogs i know, with proper leadership and diligent training can learn to control their gut reaction and be good canine citizens. A dog that reacts without being provoked over not territory,not food, not possession, not insult, imo has something much more wrong with it and deserves the label DA. IF all dogs that get in disagreements are labeled DA that would include most of the dogs i know in one way or another. A true DA dog is not like a reactive dog. I believe it is dangerous to society as a whole. IF that doesnt' make sense i give up.
What I am trying to figure out is WHY is it dangerous to the society. That GSD mix I said in my other thread who would have killed that husky if he had the chance was friendly to other dogs. He was also a big goofy loverball who just loved on every human that passed him. I don't see how he is a danger to the society.
 

smkie

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I think the husky was just as important as the gsd and if people that have true what i consider to be DA dogs and that being a dog that rages at other dogs, it is capable of causing some of the harm that has been stated here in this thread. Everyone deserves a loving home, but everyone deserves to be safe out of the home too. If i am walking Pepper Mary and Victor down the road and a DA dog runs up and starts a fight becuase of whatever reason it is he got out, i hold the owner responsible. I see the dog as yet another victim of human error. THe thought that he could have been kept up and contained and never get out no matter how diligent they are. I doubt there are very many people here that have never had a dog escape. I don't see why this isn't just plain common sense. A dog has no right to inflict pain and injury on another dog outside of his yard or home. IF a person thinks that dog will never get out..i hope they are right. Adopting a dog that is dog aggressor is a responsibility best left to the pros.
 

Tahla9999

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I think the husky was just as important as the gsd and if people that have true what i consider to be DA dogs and that being a dog that rages at other dogs, it is capable of causing some of the harm that has been stated here in this thread. Everyone deserves a loving home, but everyone deserves to be safe out of the home too. If i am walking Pepper Mary and Victor down the road and a DA dog runs up and starts a fight becuase of whatever reason it is he got out, i hold the owner responsible. I see the dog as yet another victim of human error. THe thought that he could have been kept up and contained and never get out no matter how diligent they are. I doubt there are very many people here that have never had a dog escape. I don't see why this isn't just plain common sense. A dog has no right to inflict pain and injury on another dog outside of his yard or home. IF a person thinks that dog will never get out..i hope they are right.
A dog has no right to inflict pain? What are they, humans. A dog is a dog. Dogs have no morals. This is one of the reasons why people want to ban so many breeds. Because when a dog acts like a dog, it is unnatural. People now see dogs as thinking animals who would think twice before killing an animal. No, they are not angels nor should anyone expect them to be. People kill their dogs because there dogs killed a cat. They think that they are dangerous now because it killed another living thing. A dog who attacks another dog for no reason is not a ''bad dog.'' This is not a Disney World where all dogs get along and play with kittens and sings tunes.

You know what we did to that GSD. Kept that dog away from that Husky. Problem solved! He is still a sweet heart.

It is the owners responsibility to keep their dog out of the streets. I don't care if it is a friendly dog, keep it out of the streets!
 

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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?

I would. If it was as a case of already growing attached to the dog before DA surfaced. I would never never dream of getting "rid" of him, but it would make life (mine and his) more difficult and less enjoyable

would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?

I think that would be a NO. I have dogs already in the home, and children as well. This is not dragging HA into the equation, but rather KNOWING how careful I must be with a DA dog and the kids could easily leave a gate unlocked, let it run out of the house, etc, etc. All more stress than I would knowingly want to deal with.

what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?

Of course seek professional help, but from what I see it doesn't always solve much. I would just take more precautions and deal day by day.

what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?

First of all, if my dog was DA I can't imagine having them off leash in a public place. If that happened to be the first time I found out my dog was DA I would be adamant about financial responsibility. I suppose it would all depend on how viscous the attack was and quite possibly some other factors. I really can't imagine putting a dog down for one slip, but I just can't answer that honestly since I have never been there.
 

ihartgonzo

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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?
Yes. I would rather judge a dog as an individual than simply as a "DA dog". If I fell in love with that dog, oh well. I'm getting a dog as a pet, for myself... not as a pet for my dogs, or as an excuse to go to the dog park, or whatnot.

would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?
If either (a) I did not own any other dogs & didn't plan to own any dogs, or (b) the DA dog had met and got along with my current dogs, yes! I don't feel up to crating and rotating for life, though.

what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?
I would consult a behaviorist, and work on control/prevention above all else. Then I would enroll in advanced Obedience classes, and get my dog to the highest level of Obedience I possibly could. Gonzo is not DA, but he became fairly RA after getting attacked twice. It was really hard to work through that, and we're still in the process, but he's getting better. Obedience helped him learn to defer to me and calm down, tremendously.

what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
I would get my dog under control, check for wounds, apologize profusely to the other owner, and pay any Vet bills. Accidents happen... even with dogs who aren't truly DA. If I knew I had a DA dog, however, I would take every single precaution to prevent such a situation (a la Ella's Mom!). It's not like living in fort knox, and it doesn't take an army to keep a dog from running loose.
 

KatzNK9

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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?
No, but I might offer to foster a dog & try to resocialize the dog. It would include attending obedience classes.
would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?
No, but possibly foster (same as above)
what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?
I would work tirelessly at turning around that behavior & if I wasn't having success, I would spare no expense to find the best behaviorist I could possibly afford anywhere on the planet to help me.

As my dogs were raised from an early age attending obedience classes & socializing with other dogs, this is highly unlikely without significant provocation.
what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
My dog wouldn't be off-leash in a public place if I felt there was any possibility that my dog wasn't 100% safe & the other dogs in the vicinity weren't 100% safe.
 

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