If dogs can be classy, Oki was one of the classiest dogs I know. He was fiercely loyal and loving with his family, and so in tune with what was going on around him; he knew when to be gentle, and he was often breathtakingly gentle, and he knew when he should take action. This was Oki's way with humans. There is no way his aggression to dogs diminished his beautiful nature with those that mattered to him.
would you own a dog-aggressive dog?
- Thread starter elegy
- Start date
I'm pretty passionate abotu this subject.
I can put Buster's DA down to a few things, lack of socialisation early on and a few bad experiences. But there are always moments I see hope.
Like the offleash dogs he's met, he's dominant, but he's not agro and he listens amazingly well int eh presence of other dogs when he's offleash, I no longer risk it though.
Yesterday at the vet, he was sore and we were leaving,t ehre were 2 staffies int he waiting room and he completly ignored them as we walked out, times like that I know we can make it. I will never trust him with strange dogs and I will never expect him to play, but I know we can work till he doesn't react to other dogs.
Then we have Harry, always socialised, met a lot of dogs, met a lot of people when he was young, was taught to behave. And while he will walk controlled on leash when other dogs are in sight, if they approach then they better watch out, and even worse. He has developed issues with the dogs he lives with. It seems either his genetics, or whatever happened to him in those first 4 months of life has left a lasting impression that he will never shake off.
Yes we have a good fence, but not Buster nor Harry attempt to get through the fence to get to dogs. Tehre was a losoe dog out the front yard today, Buz stood at the front door and looked.
I have to say Chewbecca is the most responsible dog owner I think I've ever seen, her devotion to Ella because of her DA amazes me, she takes no chances, she won't allow issues to arise because of the DA, she is the perfect example of what to do and she is a massive inspiration for workign through Buster's issue.
I can put Buster's DA down to a few things, lack of socialisation early on and a few bad experiences. But there are always moments I see hope.
Like the offleash dogs he's met, he's dominant, but he's not agro and he listens amazingly well int eh presence of other dogs when he's offleash, I no longer risk it though.
Yesterday at the vet, he was sore and we were leaving,t ehre were 2 staffies int he waiting room and he completly ignored them as we walked out, times like that I know we can make it. I will never trust him with strange dogs and I will never expect him to play, but I know we can work till he doesn't react to other dogs.
Then we have Harry, always socialised, met a lot of dogs, met a lot of people when he was young, was taught to behave. And while he will walk controlled on leash when other dogs are in sight, if they approach then they better watch out, and even worse. He has developed issues with the dogs he lives with. It seems either his genetics, or whatever happened to him in those first 4 months of life has left a lasting impression that he will never shake off.
Yes we have a good fence, but not Buster nor Harry attempt to get through the fence to get to dogs. Tehre was a losoe dog out the front yard today, Buz stood at the front door and looked.
I have to say Chewbecca is the most responsible dog owner I think I've ever seen, her devotion to Ella because of her DA amazes me, she takes no chances, she won't allow issues to arise because of the DA, she is the perfect example of what to do and she is a massive inspiration for workign through Buster's issue.
If a dog I raised changed from non-dog-aggressive to dog-aggressive (whether because of a scary incidence or because of genetics), then I would keep the dog and deal with it, but I would never knowingly adopt a dog-aggressive dog, or a breed that I knew had dog-aggressive tendencies. It's not something I would ever want to deal with. Ditto with aggression towards cats . . . I would never risk my cats, so I would never get a sighthound, for example, even one that SEEMED 100% safe around them. It only takes one incident to end up with a dead animal . . .
I think we're having a disconnect in our personal definitions of "Dog Aggressive". There are dogs that are DA and then there are dog that are *DA*. I think that Smkie's latest experience with a ridiculously DA dog is what is on the fore of her mind...the dog that went from laying down to snarling threats at two dogs that were a good 20 feet away and then redirected that aggro/frustration onto the dog next to it, since it couldn't get at the target it wanted. That is a supremely DA dog in my mind and one that really doesn't have any business being out in public...that particular dog was/is a loose cannon and a danger to those around it. That's one level.
Another level is with dogs like Ella, who would love nothing more than to eat any dog she sees (from Chewbecca's own statement in another thread). Ella does not, however, fly off the handle to the point that she would inadvertently take out a person just because she couldn't bite a dog...it sounds like so long as another dog is a certain range away, Ella is able to keep her cool and keep walking? Correct me if I'm wrong here. But that's another level.
Some dogs are only DA in certain situations or with certain types (big black dogs or intact males). For the most part though, they aren't looking at every other dog around them as something to rend to pieces.
Dog Aggression is a tricky, tricky thing. I know that part of me would love to own an APBT some day, but the DA aspect is forcing me to take a long, hard look at the idea. Like I said, I like having more than one dog at a time and I don't want to have to crate/rotate all the time or have to worry about when/if my dog was going to "turn on".
Another level is with dogs like Ella, who would love nothing more than to eat any dog she sees (from Chewbecca's own statement in another thread). Ella does not, however, fly off the handle to the point that she would inadvertently take out a person just because she couldn't bite a dog...it sounds like so long as another dog is a certain range away, Ella is able to keep her cool and keep walking? Correct me if I'm wrong here. But that's another level.
Some dogs are only DA in certain situations or with certain types (big black dogs or intact males). For the most part though, they aren't looking at every other dog around them as something to rend to pieces.
Dog Aggression is a tricky, tricky thing. I know that part of me would love to own an APBT some day, but the DA aspect is forcing me to take a long, hard look at the idea. Like I said, I like having more than one dog at a time and I don't want to have to crate/rotate all the time or have to worry about when/if my dog was going to "turn on".
S
I have only owned one APBT, but I think people have misconseptions about pit bulls in a multi-dog home. People immediately think that since most APBTs are DA that they wont get along with fellow canine family members. From everyone I know who own multiple pit bulls, DA isn't a problem inside the pack. There is a pecking order, but all canines are pack oriented, even pit bulls.
Of course common sense says to get a puppy and the opposite sex of the dogs already in the home, so DA within the pack will least likely occur. When I get another pup myself, it will be female.
I am not referring to anyone here. Zoom just kind of reminded me of the misconceptions a lot of people have about adding a pit bull to a multi-dog household.
Thats all!
Of course common sense says to get a puppy and the opposite sex of the dogs already in the home, so DA within the pack will least likely occur. When I get another pup myself, it will be female.
I am not referring to anyone here. Zoom just kind of reminded me of the misconceptions a lot of people have about adding a pit bull to a multi-dog household.
Thats all!
That's the other thing...Virgo sort of threw off my pack addition plans. I was goign to get another male Aussie, since for the most part they're pretty laid back goofballs and don't much care about same-sex aggression and then add in a female of a "harder" breed.
I know that many MANY people have multi-dog households with DA dogs; Sizzle, Elegy, Dekka, Marty just to name a few. It can be done. I guess the question is, where is the balance between "know thy dog" and "exception to the rules"?
I know that many MANY people have multi-dog households with DA dogs; Sizzle, Elegy, Dekka, Marty just to name a few. It can be done. I guess the question is, where is the balance between "know thy dog" and "exception to the rules"?
You can add me to that list. My previously cohesive dogs "suddenly turned" aggressive. It was a day of reckoning that I figured would come eventually because let's face it, they're Pit Bulls. One day one guarded a high-value toy I forgot was in her crate, then the other decided that a lower-ranking position in the "pack" wasn't good enough.
We crate and rotate, gate and separate. Its aint the end of the world. My breed, my dogs, are worth it.
We crate and rotate, gate and separate. Its aint the end of the world. My breed, my dogs, are worth it.
I think by now at this stage i am pretty good at reading the personality of my dog. I have experienced dogs that are Dog aggressive...aggressive being the key word, dog reactive, those that respond to a threat, alphas that are just being the boss and slap around to prove their point. If at any point in time i feel that my dog is a danger to society i will take the necessary steps to insure that my neighbors and friends both canine and human are safe. I do not have the right to endanger anyone's peace and well being with myself, my children, or my dog. My Mom's house is fort knox, i dont know one dog that has ever made it out of that yard, the fence is buried in concrete and there is wire beneath that, the fence is 8 ft tall. AND STILL i would not have a dog aggressive dog in there. I met Kharma and going by her and not her whole breed, i did not see a DA DOG. I saw a responsible wise woman that knew how to contain herself. I did experience a DA dog at the guild this month that just about ruined everything for every dog owner that likes to bring their dogs there. I do not want an animal that is going to put punctures in anything or whiplash omg. I love Pepper to bits but if she were to be like that, i would be handing her over. BEcuase i believe in what i am saying. SO we will keep with our obedience, we will keep with our socialization.our three times daily training and she will soon be starting her therapy dog workout because i believe she has potential. She was walked with 5 dogs last night and i was told "IT was an honor" by the young man that walked them to have her included. WE will keep up with her knowing to call off squirrels and cats and learning control just as i did with Victor. IT is not something i take lightly. I watched and read her for along time before i made up my mind that she can stay. I have meet wonderful dogs of breeds that have DA potential, but are not DA. I have seen ones that were DA were breed to be High DA and should not be in soceity but no fault of their own, they are victims ,but do not have the right to make more victims. ANd if that doesn't work, it doesnt' work and that will be the end of her being here. I don't think it will happen at this point in time.i have been given no alarms, no red flags she has shown control, even when she and Virgo got in a fight, no welts, no blood. I do not want to put her in a situation with Virgo where she would be hightened in her anger and have made the necessary steps to insure that. SHe is not allowed to be outside unsupervised, non of my dogs are, they go out, i go out and i watch how she reacts with the neighborhood dogs we have, both contained and loose, there is no DA in her. . I do not value my dog over other people's dogs. I do not have that right.
I tried for 7 years with a boston terrier mix that had more than 20 fight scars and had killed a sheltie, all before she was 15 months old, before I adopted her. Birdie was just too much dog for my dog owner skills. I miss her still but do not regret my decision to end her misery. She was so mentally ill.
With the liability issue and the fact that I enjoy taking my dogs out in public, I would never have another aggressive dog.
With the liability issue and the fact that I enjoy taking my dogs out in public, I would never have another aggressive dog.
UGH.
Smkie,
I'm having a REALLY hard time following you. You say you don't think that those with DA dogs should not have them, but in another post you say that you do not value your dog over other people's dogs, that you do not have that right.
But that sounds awfully a lot like an implication that those of us WITH DA dogs, value our dogs more over other people's dogs, in your opinion.
And in ways, yes, you DO value your dogs over other people's dogs, or you'd either own their dogs (which would make them your dogs) or you'd be training everyone else's dogs.
We ALL do in ways.
This high and mighty crap is BS, maybe I'm being a tad sensitive (I have stated this is a heated subject for me), but this is the impression I'm getting.
You watch your dogs and, uh, we'll watch ours, and let ME/US make sure our dogs "don't make victims".
Smkie,
I'm having a REALLY hard time following you. You say you don't think that those with DA dogs should not have them, but in another post you say that you do not value your dog over other people's dogs, that you do not have that right.
But that sounds awfully a lot like an implication that those of us WITH DA dogs, value our dogs more over other people's dogs, in your opinion.
And in ways, yes, you DO value your dogs over other people's dogs, or you'd either own their dogs (which would make them your dogs) or you'd be training everyone else's dogs.
We ALL do in ways.
This high and mighty crap is BS, maybe I'm being a tad sensitive (I have stated this is a heated subject for me), but this is the impression I'm getting.
You watch your dogs and, uh, we'll watch ours, and let ME/US make sure our dogs "don't make victims".
We crate and rotate, gate and separate. Its aint the end of the world. My breed, my dogs, are worth it.
Zo is nervous reactive to Dekka and is never out with her. (the issue is Zo's not Dekka) Zo has other issues. (her mom was the one Lynn PTS for behaviour issues. She is the only dog of mine that makes me nervous as she is somewhat unpredictable.
The rest are fine, but aside from the whippets, only Snip/Dekka are really left alone together. Even then they have had moments where they have poked a few holes/tooth scratches in each other. (not seriously...I have seen serious)
Zoom I agree that Smkie is thinking of only the extreme forms. But the problem with saying that ALL DA dogs need to live in fort knox etc etc is that many RESPONSIBLE dog owners realize their dogs DR/DA and that not the way it needs to be.
I did have one dog that I fostered that turned HA, selectively but progressively HA. Was not in the least bit DA. The two IME are not the least bit linked-to me proving dogs know we are not dogs. That dog had to be PTS. It was hard for me as he was great with me, but I am sure there was something chemically/physically wrong with him. He would truly fly into a rage blind to all things if a person came within view of him. I have seen that glassy eyed altered state a few times, and would not like to ever see it again.
But not all DA dogs lack self control. Dekka has great control, even when she is 'aggressing'. It is still inappropriate for her to display her snarling hissy fits. Ferret the one who did all that damage did not snarl much, hardly ever growled. She never redirected her aggression. (dekka has snarked and snip when on leash and she reacts to another dog) She was scary as she was silent when she 'went for it'.
I think having set preconcieved notions about how a DA dog will/must behave to be 'dangerous' is dangerous. DA not 'fixed' training, though that helps A LOT. DA is not always prevented by socialization, though that too helps A LOT. To say you can read a young dog and know how it will turn out is risky (unless it is DA at a young age-which would scare me None of my dogs really got DR until about 3-I hear 5 is another milestone). It is a continual process of reading.
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CHewbacca in this thread you wanted to hear what you wanted to hear. I am not saying what you want to hear and you seem to be upset by it. I think DA dogs are dangerous. I do not think that all dogs of all breeds that have DA tendencies are DA., I believe a great deal of that is the responsiblity of the breeder and that temperment should be just as big of a concern in pairing two dogs together as confirmation. I believe that a mutt has just as much possibility of being da as a pure breed. IT is a CASe BY CASE situation not a blanket field. I believe that if a dog is serious DA not RA not Alpha, that it is a menace. I believe it should be a case by case not a breed by breed consideration. I believe that if a dog that is KNOWN DA attacks my dog while we are in public or in my yard, that it is the responsiblity of the owner and there is not enough money in the world to make up for that. NOw if that offends you so be it. I will not say otherwise. IF you think it is high and mighty since your making this personal, that is your opinion. Dogs can be mentally ill as one person here stated and a great deal of this presents itself with DA tendencies. I Dont' know how i can say it any other way. IF you don't like my opinion fine, move on, its a long thread. You have already stated that your dog has harmed another dog. I have never been responsible for something like that i will not put myself in that position because i think it would about break my heart. THe question was asked WOULD i go out and purposely adopt a DA dog ..not a RA dog, not an alpha, a DA d0g and i will say not for any amount of money or love in this world would i do that. THat is the my answer. IF you dont' like it, i am not sorry.
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I didn't start this thread.
You know, judge me all you want. I already know what went wrong that caused that situation. I've already taken responsibility for my split second of bad judgement. At the time, I had no idea that my dog would push past my knee and out the door since she hadn't done it before, but, YES, I was stupid not to be prepared for that possibly being a problem. And I don't mean that sarcastically, I seriously didn't have my thinking cap on that day. And I got D@MN lucky that my dog didn't inflict more serious damage to that dog. NO ONE knows this better than me. Even you, smkie. I take full responsibility for what happened. But what you don't know, is the history of communication that my dog had with the other dog. An excuse for my dog to attack that dog? No way. Maybe in the dog world, but NOT in the owner world. But mistakes DO happen, unfortunately. We're not all born perfect dog owners and prepared for EVERY situation possible.
And as I said, I got lucky that my dog didn't do more damage than she did.
But from that mistake, I tell you what, I sure learned how to be WELL AWARE of everything related to my dog. I learned how to be a better owner. I learned my dog.
And, no, as I've stated, I don't keep my dog locked up in dungeon for DA dogs. She is on leash or in a fenced in yard if she is outside. But I don't keep her locked up.
And I'm not asking you for an apology. There's no need for that. You are surely entitled to your opinion. I just know where you stand now, where as I didn't before.
Thanks for clearing it up...
You know, judge me all you want. I already know what went wrong that caused that situation. I've already taken responsibility for my split second of bad judgement. At the time, I had no idea that my dog would push past my knee and out the door since she hadn't done it before, but, YES, I was stupid not to be prepared for that possibly being a problem. And I don't mean that sarcastically, I seriously didn't have my thinking cap on that day. And I got D@MN lucky that my dog didn't inflict more serious damage to that dog. NO ONE knows this better than me. Even you, smkie. I take full responsibility for what happened. But what you don't know, is the history of communication that my dog had with the other dog. An excuse for my dog to attack that dog? No way. Maybe in the dog world, but NOT in the owner world. But mistakes DO happen, unfortunately. We're not all born perfect dog owners and prepared for EVERY situation possible.
And as I said, I got lucky that my dog didn't do more damage than she did.
But from that mistake, I tell you what, I sure learned how to be WELL AWARE of everything related to my dog. I learned how to be a better owner. I learned my dog.
And, no, as I've stated, I don't keep my dog locked up in dungeon for DA dogs. She is on leash or in a fenced in yard if she is outside. But I don't keep her locked up.
And I'm not asking you for an apology. There's no need for that. You are surely entitled to your opinion. I just know where you stand now, where as I didn't before.
Thanks for clearing it up...
I have 3 dogs and 1 foster right now that all pile up together like little puppies when they sleep. It is such a joy to see and be around. 2 of these pups are puppy mill rescues and are poorly bred english toy spaniels. They all are so loving to each other and to humans too.
I did not realize how stressed I really was living with my extreme DG Birdie until I lived with my current dogs for a while. It's like night and day for me.
I applaud those who DO have the skills to handle mentally ill or poorly socialized, or poorly bred DG dogs. I just know they are beyond my skills and I wont have another aggressive dog.
I did not realize how stressed I really was living with my extreme DG Birdie until I lived with my current dogs for a while. It's like night and day for me.
I applaud those who DO have the skills to handle mentally ill or poorly socialized, or poorly bred DG dogs. I just know they are beyond my skills and I wont have another aggressive dog.
honestly it scares the hell out of me to see somebody with a pit/x so adamant that their dog will never ever be DA or out the door it goes. that kind of attitude leads nowhere good. if that is truly how you feel, then you have no business owning a bully breed dog. are all bully breeds DA? no, but there's a huge potential for it, and it's got as much to do with genetics as it does with upbringing.
I never said..i love the way words are put in my mouth that i didnt' think my dog could have da tendencies. I said I do not at this time see any da tendencies and WITH that as a jumping point i am training and socializing and being responsible for this pitty mix with her nose in my ear. I stated that IF she does turn dog agressive and i fear there is potential for her to harm or kill someone else's pet that first i will see if anyone is out there that has more skill then i do and can take the responsiblity for this. AND if there was not she would be pts. I know that glazed hot look all to well and i WONT have it in my home, i WONT inflict that loaded gun on my neighbors. ARE all banned breeds loaded guns..no i have meet a dauchsand that would make people have nightmares.Sorry i am not saying what you want me to say, but i AM saying what i believe is my responibility to my community. THat is all i can do for Pepper. WHo is now going out to do her am obedience. WHo now has learned not to run which ws her number one passion and has replaced that with a new game..of COME TAG BACK and fires off like a cannon. Several people here are trying to make this personal. I refuse to, it is not in my "rules" of debate. I will say the same thing 10 years down the line, i am not going to repeat the difference between DA and RA and alpha. I bet i train my animals better then think. I do not think that glazed rage can be trained out and i wouldn't even attempt it. . If at anytime i feel that this 2 year old child i am in charge of "turns" then i will have no other recourse, it would be sad, it would break my heart but i don't have a right to own an animal that puts other animals at risk. WOuld she turn DA because she is part of something..YOUR the one that is trying to say because you have a bully breed, all bullie breeds will be DA i am not. SHe has just as much chance (and a lot more in my care then she would be in the few people that have offered to take her off my hands) to be a successful representation of what they CAN be. Would i be putting in this much effort if she was already DA, NO. THere are too many dogs pts every day to justify that and they need me just as much as the DA dog, without the risk of harming people's pets.
Elegy never said that your dog will turn DA. She never said that because she's a bully breed that she will definitely turn DA.
She said that she has the POTENTIAL and moreso because she's a bully breed and what have they been bred to do for SO many years????
Just like what have greyhounds been bred to do? Bloodhounds? Collies? Labrador Retrievers?
If YOU feel you cannot handle (or simply won't handle) a DA dog, then that's your opinion/lifestyle/whatever choice.
I don't own a "loaded gun" waiting to go off. I own a DA dog that is manageable, and not only that, a DA dog that is an overwhelming JOY to me and my family. A DA dog that my vet said he wished HIS dog had her disposition.
I have a d@mn good dog. A dog whose "good" outweighs her bad.
Oh, and I do think you do an awesome job training your dogs and I commend you for taking in victoria pepperpot and training her so well. I don't think anyone is meaning to insult your ability to train your dogs.
But you cannot train instinct out of an animal that is there. You CAN, however, make it manageable. DA is a genetic trait in some breeds.
Ex: When we first fenced in our yard, Ella would go crazy when the neighbor's dogs were outside. She would run the up and down the fence, nose the fence, and bark like mad. She would even "scream" at them.
BUT, through work and training, AND NEVER LEAVING HER UNATTENDED OUTSIDE, I have managed to desensitize her (for the most part) to the dogs nextdoor when we are outside. We were outside last night playing fetch and the neighbor's dogs were outside, up against the fence, just barking and whining and running up and down the fence. She didn't even acknowledge them. I'm quite proud of her!
BUT, that is not to say that if I would trust her not to go up to that fence and take notice of those dogs if left unattended. Because that DA is there.
She said that she has the POTENTIAL and moreso because she's a bully breed and what have they been bred to do for SO many years????
Just like what have greyhounds been bred to do? Bloodhounds? Collies? Labrador Retrievers?
If YOU feel you cannot handle (or simply won't handle) a DA dog, then that's your opinion/lifestyle/whatever choice.
I don't own a "loaded gun" waiting to go off. I own a DA dog that is manageable, and not only that, a DA dog that is an overwhelming JOY to me and my family. A DA dog that my vet said he wished HIS dog had her disposition.
I have a d@mn good dog. A dog whose "good" outweighs her bad.
Oh, and I do think you do an awesome job training your dogs and I commend you for taking in victoria pepperpot and training her so well. I don't think anyone is meaning to insult your ability to train your dogs.
But you cannot train instinct out of an animal that is there. You CAN, however, make it manageable. DA is a genetic trait in some breeds.
Ex: When we first fenced in our yard, Ella would go crazy when the neighbor's dogs were outside. She would run the up and down the fence, nose the fence, and bark like mad. She would even "scream" at them.
BUT, through work and training, AND NEVER LEAVING HER UNATTENDED OUTSIDE, I have managed to desensitize her (for the most part) to the dogs nextdoor when we are outside. We were outside last night playing fetch and the neighbor's dogs were outside, up against the fence, just barking and whining and running up and down the fence. She didn't even acknowledge them. I'm quite proud of her!
BUT, that is not to say that if I would trust her not to go up to that fence and take notice of those dogs if left unattended. Because that DA is there.