would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

[Maxy24]

I just don't like the assumption that a DA dog is bound to attack another dog someday, that's not true. The problem is that when someone sees another dog they don't know he's DA unless they see him attack another dog, so who knows how many very well behaved, well trained DA dogs you've seen who you think are just the greatest little dogs.
I would put money down that Ella will never get the chance to attack another dog again, and is Chewbecca gets another DA dog I bet that dog would never ham another dog. Yes Chewbecca made a mistake, she was unaware of her dog's potential, I assume Ella is her first DA dog, but she will never make that mistake again, Ella and any other DA dog she might get will not be a danger to society because Chewbecca will not let them be. That goes for anybody who owns a DA dog responsibly.
I know i could never own a DA dog in a multi-dog household because I do not trust myself to properly handle the situation. But a single DA dog, for me, would not be a problem. He would not be a danger to society. No I cannot predict the future and say there is absolutely no possibility he will get out anymore than someone can say there dog will never get out and be hit by a car, but the chances would be soooo slim (for me) I feel I could say with confidence my dog will not harm another even if he is DA. He would never be given that chance.

Smikie, I understand you not wanting to own a DA dog obviously there is nothing to be angry with about that, and you've had bad experiences with those that you've known to be DA (but as I said, who knows how many DA dogs you've met that you did not know were DA, maybe that Mastiff being trained the other day in the parking lot was DA) but it hurts people when you tell them that their dogs are bombs waiting to blow and that their dogs in your hands would be a dead dog. That is why people are upset, that you would not have given their dog a chance and that maybe you don't think they should have either. That you feel they are risking other dogs lives by keeping theirs.

I hope to someday own a rescue APBT, he will be my only dog and may or may not be DA when I get him. he would start training as if he were that day i got him. If he is DA, no one will have anything to worry about.

 

[smkie]

a dog that only responds to a threat...is a reactive dog not a dog aggressor. THere is a football field of difference between the two. A person can be careful with a REactor dog...a dog aggressor is the touch down. It is the dog that is enraged by the presense of another dog. It is hot as fire, a taunt wire, and fast, it attacks to cause HARM not to WARN. AN RA dog can easily be inspired to be a DA dog with careless handling. But there are dogs that are born with a flipped chip. I am not saying it is their fault, i am not saying it is fair. A whole lot of dogs are suffering now because idiots bred high ra dogs to da dog and created this whole madness to begin with. It can happen just as easily in a mixed breed of many questionable backgrounds. It is mental wiring IMO that creates a DA Dog. AN RA dog is most likely an alpha. I have had many alphas and they can learn to go beyond their gut instinct.
. Just because you didn't see the trigger doesnt' mean that the other dog didn't "snarl a lip" or stiff leg..or shoot a look that says my butt looks better then your face and your mama loves your brother more then you. A DA is an instigator of explosion. If for say i think i can keep a da dog here with all my good intentions. Knowing fully well what the potential of that is. AND that DA dog did harm the jack russell or the chi that doesn't stay in it's own yard next door, or the basinji that lives across the street. AND i ended up being sued, what kind of a person/owner/gaurdian does that make me for Victor and Mary? I put all of us at risk. I personally cannot do that to them or to me and that is how i base all my decisions.


here we go again..the mastiff in the parking lot..was not DA he may hve been from a breed that has DA tendencies..but that little wisp of a woman would not have had a dog that weighed more then her in a parking lot on a cool day where people leave dogs in their cars all the time..it would have been perfectly insane for her to do so. Her dog was not DA...because a dog comes from a breed that has da tendencies, doesn't mean it IS DA. If your dog sees another dog from a distance and the whole everything changes, you got a problem. If you know in your heart that if you turned loose of your dog, it would run in to maim and or kill the other and you would be helpless to stop it. you have a problem. And usually those problems because other people's problems. IT means the potential is there and it is the responibility of the owners and breeders to temperment breed. If a person has managed to never have a dog escape, we had a fire, if it hadn't been for my neighbors i might have lost Mary she was that frightened, imo they have been very lucky indeed.

 

[Sweet72947]

I do not think that glazed rage can be trained out and i wouldn't even attempt it. .

Hmm...I believe in some instances it can. FOHA had a young doberman who had been kept in a crate for 22 hours a day. He was never socialized, and when I took him out for a walk and he saw other dogs he FREAKED. Barking, lunging, slobbering, the whole shebang. I started taking him on the back trails where there were almost no dogs and gave him treats for being calm around the barking. We soon got to the point where he was laying beside me and a dog walked by and he only looked at it. This doberman was eventually adopted by people with a beagle. So, it can be fixed sometimes.

 

[mrose_s]

Smkie, what about the DA dogs that don't "explode with rage" at the sight of another dog? I think there is a world of difference between the levels of different DA dogs, and imo, there are a lot of levels to this complex issues, maybe to the point where no 2 DA dogs fit into the one level, depending on how far you venture into the issue. Saying all DA dogs are loaded guns or time bombs relaly isn't fair.
Buster is only DA when he is outside the yard, on leash, in the presense of dogs. 98% of the time he will strain and whine and if they get closer, his reactions will get worse. The other 2%, he ignores them completly. Usually when he is stressing abotu something else, which shows me that while his DA is very bad at this point, it ibvisouly isn't unsolvable.

 

[smkie]

Being abused is not the same thing as being DA. Victor had issues those can all be worked on he would get so "high" after a toy he would bite right through you and this is just to start. It took months and months. Good
for you for working with this dog and releasing it from what no dog should ever have to endure.

If they don't explode their not DA DOGS. DOg agressors start hte fight, they attack the innocent, it doens't stop when the other animal tries to get away if it can. IF the dog REACTS to an insult, that doesnt' make it DA. A DA dog doesn't slap fest, it bites hard.
I don't know how to say that any differently..they are reactor dogs. YOu can work with a reactor dog.

 

[Chewbecca]

Hmm...I believe in some instances it can. FOHA had a young doberman who had been kept in a crate for 22 hours a day. He was never socialized, and when I took him out for a walk and he saw other dogs he FREAKED. Barking, lunging, slobbering, the whole shebang. I started taking him on the back trails where there were almost no dogs and gave him treats for being calm around the barking. We soon got to the point where he was laying beside me and a dog walked by and he only looked at it. This doberman was eventually adopted by people with a beagle. So, it can be fixed sometimes.

And that can happen, and often DOES happen.
A perfect example of "depending on WHY the dog is DA and what caused it".
See, for me, it's hard to tell if Ella's breed caused her to become dog aggressive (by genetic nature, of course), or if there were environmental issues that caused her to become DA. All I know is, around the time of the boxer incident, two weeks prior to that, we had taken her to a REALLY BAD trainer/behaviorist. Ella would react when she saw dogs, but she wouldn't "attack". In fact, she pulled me off my bike once when I was bike riding with her, just so she could go sniff the basset hound that we were riding by. She didn't attack the dog, she sniffed him/her.
But once we went to this trainer/behaviorist, he popped her prong collar everytime she so much as looked at another dog. Then about two weeks later, that's when the incident with the boxer happened. But before we even went to the trainer/behaviorist and before the incident with the boxer, Ella and I would cross paths during our morning walks with this boxer. Now, this boxer was (I cannot imagine, anyway), very polite in her communication with Ella. I would put Ella in a sit next to me (which she did so well), and this boxer would get on her hind legs, snarl, growl, bark and lunge at Ella.

Ella forgets NOTHING. NOTHING. I know this from other things she does. She doesn't forget where she saw a rabbit at in our yard. She doesn't forget exactly where in the tree that squirrel ran. And she'll look for it the next time we are out.


But now? Now if Ella sees another dog (depending on how far away the dog is), she gets...riled. It's gotten a tad better because MY confidence has built, but she used to throw Ella fits.


But anyone's guess is as good as mine as to whether or not her dog aggression is genetic or environmental.
It could very likely be both. She could have been on the fence genetically, but the environmental things threw her over to the DA side.
Who knows.

 

[corgipower]

a dog that only responds to a threat...is a reactive dog not a dog aggressor. THere is a football field of difference between the two. A person can be careful with a REactor dog...a dog aggressor is the touch down. It is the dog that is enraged by the presense of another dog.

In the case of Ares, and most likely many other dogs, he is DA. He is the aggressor. But he will ignore other dogs unless they get within a few inches of him. He ignores dogs that are 5 feet away. You could easily walk past him and never know that he's DA. IMO, to call a dog like Ares reactive or defensive is a dangerous sugar-coating. He is DA, he has caused injury.

 

[Dizzy]

I have to agree, I find this whole "reactive" vs "aggressive" business a bit stupid.

It's introducing PCness into the dog world, and PC and aggression doesn't mix.

 

[smkie]

I believe that is alpha behavior and he has a space around him he wishes respected. If it isn't he clears that up. He doesn't go out of his space because a dog is present. IF i understand what you are saying. THAT is not DA. Just because a dog loses his temper and feels his rights are violated and defends himself doesn't make him DA. I am sure he has a warning albeit quick. A DA dog doesn't need to warn. That just isn't the point of being a DO.

 

[smkie]

Understanding the difference would save a number of good animals from being put down. Many dogs are mislabeled from the get go and never get the chance. Just because a dog gets in a dog fight doesn't mean it is a dog agressor. Most fights i have encountered are spitty and scarey, but i have to appriciate the control that ws used to not dent the skin or leave welts or if blood is raised it isn't serious. . It is all bluff. A DA dog isn't going to do that.there is no bluff. no warning. IF dog behavior was better understand by the masses we wouldn't be in the situation we are in with banned breeds.

sorry to double post i mean to add it to the previous.

I wish i could see this man's dvd. http://www.leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

 

[Dizzy]

If a dog has attacked/gone to attack under ANY circumstances, more than once, it is an aggressive dog.

Aggression doesn't mean seeing red and foaming at the mouth. It could mean nipping, snapping and being OVERLY dominant.

Throwing all these new fangled terms in does nothing to solve anything.

 

[smkie]

But the trigger is different. ONe responds to triggers, one does not need one a trigger to be set off.

 

[Dizzy]

But the trigger is different. ONe responds to triggers, one does not need one a trigger to be set off.

The result is still the same.

Just fancy pancy 'trying to get out of calling my dog aggressive' nonsence.

If a person likes hitting people they're called violent.

Doesn't matter if someone taunted them, or the just felt like it. If they do it often enough, they are violent people.

 

[Chewbecca]

Shall we get into types of aggression now?

How about dog tolerance levels? Or would that be too much...

 

[Dizzy]

I just think when your dog MAY bite and you KNOW it - it's black and white.

All this grey area is just there to confuse the matter.

 

[Chewbecca]

My dog doesn't bite people, though.

 

[Amstaffer]

I would prefer not to have a dog aggressive dog but if a friend or relative with a DA dog died and I was the only home available? yes I would. It would great restrict when and where I could go with the dog but yes I would.

If Sal or Athena, magically became dog aggressive and it wasn't medical and couldn't be changed...I of course would continue to love and keep them. I just wouldn't do some of the stuff I do with them.

I would look at DA as any other problem that could come up with a dog. I would (and have) bought breeds that are known to be DA because if I get them from puppies I am confident in my skills to minimize or eliminate and control the behavior. I have owned 5 dogs in my adult life and all of them were "DA" breeds and I have yet to have a problem even with intact males. Sal is the youngest of those 5 (3 are long gone) and he is over 7years old without any DA.

 

[Zoom]

Looks like we're headed that way.

I rather like these types of threads, just goes to show that dog behavior is not the cut and dry thing many people make it out to be. Parts of it, yes and for dogs with no aggression of any sort in them, sure they're pretty cut and dry. But then we have dogs that are DR, DA, HA, dominent, alpha, whatever and it can cloud the waters. The behaviors themselves can still be pretty straight forward while the reasons are vast.

Let's take Virgo for example. As best I can tell, she is an alpha female. Does not tolerate insults lightly and makes her space bubble very clearly defined and doesn't easily back off from a challenge. We're working on that and now she is/has learned that when I grab her collar and make her sit, that's that and things are now done. To the lay person, I have an "aggressive" dog because she snarks at dogs that get in her face and most people equate any showing of teeth with "aggression". Now, dog people will realize exactly what Virgo is saying, which is "leave me the hell alone and go away" and never lays a tooth on another dog. She is loud and obnoxious in her playing, lots of barking and bouncing and air-snapping which has instigated other dogs who weren't even involved in the play session, which then can get get out of hand. I realize this and take steps to ensure everyone's safety...which generally means she only gets to all-out play when it's just her and Sawyer, maybe Victor now that he's learned how to play with both my dogs. Which is ok, she doesn't really care to play with 99% of the dogs she meets anyway.

 

[adojrts]

. AN RA dog can easily be inspired to be a DA dog with careless handling. AN RA dog is most likely an alpha. I have had many alphas and they can learn to go beyond their gut instinct.
. QUOTE]

I don't agree with this at all, on any level. In my experiences RA are non confident and very unsure of how they should behave. RA dogs are often the product of many (or one) bad experiences. I also believe that even with the best training and understanding of DA/RA, that one too many bad experiences (to be clear the RA being jumped) can push the RA dog past its threshold with the end results being a DA dog.
In my experiences Alpha dogs/bitches are not aggressive. They know they are alpha and they know from birth, imo. If challenged they will fight but typically it doesn't go that far, they start with warnings. Or if it does it ends quickly. I have also found that if they are constantly being challenged by another dog, the fight is messy and if allowed to continue, it will be a fight to the death.
True Alpha's are generally the easiest to live with, its the subordinates that are trying to climb to a higher position within the 'pack', that often cause the most problems.
My reactive dog??? Never causes problems with his housemates/pack or with dogs that he knows. And his social skills with those dogs are excellent.

 

[elegy]

But the trigger is different. ONe responds to triggers, one does not need one a trigger to be set off.

really? what if the trigger is testicles? or being black? or being female? that's a trigger, too, no?

if i can take luce out to a dogfest on a leash and she behaves herself well even though there are tons of other dogs on leashes milling around, does that mean she's not dog-aggressive? she sees lots of other dogs, even exchanges sniffs with lots of dogs, but doesn't explode into any kind of rage or eat anybody's dog.

In my experiences RA are non confident and very unsure of how they should behave.

*nod* that has been my experience as well, with mushroom, who is very reactive on leash as a result of being attacked numerous times by off-leash dogs.

not to mention that every single one of the books i have about reactive dogs is built on that notion, not on the notion that they are alpha.