John Green, Father of the Little Girl Killed in Tuscon, is my New Hero

[Dekka]

It's really common sense. Where guns are banned and there are a lot of bad guys, the bad guys WILL still have guns.

If its common sense... then why is this NOT to be shown in countries where carrying is banned?

If you stop to think about if I am sure you can come up with some reasons. I know you are smart

Did you read my quote? It shows that crime rates are the same, but lethality of those crimes are less with out easy access to guns. Why might that be?

Interesting side note. My dad had an argument with a friend in the US on their trip (they spent 5 weeks driving around the US sight seeing and visiting friends) This person was SURE we Canadians all carried and it was just hush hush. He just couldn't wrap his head around the idea that we don't carry guns. And we don't WAN'T to carry guns. I have yet to meet a single person in Canada (perhaps cause those who do move south?) who wants to carry a gun or wants the population to carry

 

[Renee750il]

Real statistics on how many times guns are used in self defense would be impossible to ascertain, Dekka, especially if you throw how many times someone's home -- or person -- got passed on by a predator because attacking that person just might get the perp shot.

Coyotes are smart enough to pass up prey that might injure or kill them; surely at least some would-be robbers/muggers/rapists are that savvy?

I think, too, that by and large the average American isn't terribly passive, especially compared to other nationals -- or at least we weren't in the past. If we were, there would never have been an America and England would still be collecting money for nothing.

 

[Romy]

Well, lots of reasons, most of which actually don't have much to do with the ban. Note that I don't support the ban, just that I don't think it makes the gun crime here any worse, it just doesn't do any good.

The vast majority of gun killings are done with illegal guns, not legal, licensed ones. My guess, coming from Louisville, Dekka, not far from Lexington, is that those murders were by and large committed by *ahem* people of a certain race in a certain part of the city. Sadly, the murders were no big deal not because murders are no big deal in the US, but because that TYPE of murder is viewed as no big deal, tragically. But I'd also guess that the guns involved were not legally licensed guns.

Well, my point was the ban didn't make anything better. I find it ironic that their murder rate is the highest when it's the only place in the country where people aren't allowed any handguns.

Dizzy, maybe a gun ban on your little island makes you feel safe. Here where we have thousands of unprotected miles of borderland being used to ferry tons of illegal drugs and firearms to criminals (who aren't allowed to possess drugs or firearms right now, but they do) it doesn't make sense to disarm the law abiding population.

I used to live in Tucson. I kept two loaded guns in the house. There were too many people I KNEW down there who had been murdered by felons carrying illegally owned, smuggled weapons. I'm not afraid of being shot, but I am afraid of thugs breaking into my home and harming my family (this includes the dogs). It's my responsibility to be prepared to protect them if the need arises. The cops aren't going to get there in time to stop them from raping or murdering someone. By then it's too late. (sadly, I know this from experience. )

 

[Gempress]

Besides, its not about gun control that he's my hero. Its the recognition that bad things happen to good people, and that there is no defense against lunatics. The fact that bad people can do bad things is the price we pay for not living a police state. Its not just about guns. Its about pocket knives, carrying ID, groping on planes, letting your children play outside (and not being called a neglectful parent). Its about free speech. Its not just about the guns. I can think of all sorts of crazy restrictions this incident can result in, and I hope everyone takes the example of Mr. Greene and does not put those in place.

:hail: :hail:

My thoughts exactly! I didn't watch the video, so I don't know what context the quote was used in, but I'm not sure he was necessarily referring to gun control (although I'm sure tons of pro-gun people will interpret it that way). I think he was referring more to our nation's policies and freedoms as a whole. And I agree with him 100%.

 

[Dizzy]

Dizzy, maybe a gun ban on your little island makes you feel safe. Here where we have thousands of unprotected miles of borderland being used to ferry tons of illegal drugs and firearms to criminals (who aren't allowed to possess drugs or firearms right now, but they do) it doesn't make sense to disarm the law abiding population.

)

We have shootings.

But guns are... high end criminals, because they are not widely available.

And if you look at my prior post and the link - it shows ALL countries, not just UK or USA.

US is right up there with a lot of undeveloped countries with regards to gun crime.

 

[Dekka]

Real statistics on how many times guns are used in self defense would be impossible to ascertain, Dekka, especially if you throw how many times someone's home -- or person -- got passed on by a predator because attacking that person just might get the perp shot.

Coyotes are smart enough to pass up prey that might injure or kill them; surely at least some would-be robbers/muggers/rapists are that savvy?

Some might be. But then you could just use more lethal force. Just shoot them and be done with it. The problem with firearms is that they have been shown repeatedly to escalate violence, vs difuse it. So lets say you are a desperate person. Here.. unless you are already fairly into the 'underbelly' of crime you aren't going to be able to easily get a hand gun.

It takes a lot more 'balls' to assault people with a knife than a gun. A gun you can stay out of reach. You can take someone much larger, and better trained than you from a distance with a gun. Much safer for the criminal if they (and possibly you) have a gun.

Even if you double it and say its about 1.5% of the time its used in self defence. Is that worth the 50% increase in lethality of typically non violent crime? That isn't even to say that those defence used guns were effective... just that they were used. And add to that the accidental deaths by guns in the home, or accidental shootings by scared people. Its an awful lot of risk for very little benefit.

As I said, I am glad these are risks I won't face here. This wasn't meant to be a gun control thread. (but is a good discussion...) I was just thinking at what point do people who say 'liberity or death' concider it too much? Living safely is much maligned by some of these people (not saying here.. its just a common comment) so why aren't these people trying to repeal things like age limits for drinking, driving etc. My brother could drive better at 14 than most adults I know... Why not abolish speed limits? Some people can drive fast no problem... those that can't just shouldn't right?

I am serious with this question. Why is owning guns when faced with the risks so much more important than many of the other laws in place that control how people can behave? How is it ok to have own a gun, but not ok to own a joint?

ETA I don't live in a police state.

The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

I have to say in some ways we have more freedoms (to marry who you want, control over your own body etc) than the US

 

[corgipower]

Coyotes are smart enough to pass up prey that might injure or kill them; surely at least some would-be robbers/muggers/rapists are that savvy?

The savvy robbers don't need guns to pull it off. And I'd much rather face a pack of coyotes than a human with a gun...then again, I'd rather face a pack of coyotes than an unarmed human too.

He just couldn't wrap his head around the idea that we don't carry guns. And we don't WAN'T to carry guns. I have yet to meet a single person in Canada (perhaps cause those who do move south?) who wants to carry a gun or wants the population to carry

*Contemplates the options of colder winters or risk of being randomly shot.*

 

[Dekka]

lol maybe its cause gun metal is too cold in the winter we have no guns LOL! Cold winters suck. BUT we don't really have ticks, killer bees, or poisonous snakes, nor do we have hurricanes risk of big earthquakes and only the slight risk of tornado. Makes up for having to suffer through the cold for 3 months IMO

 

[Renee750il]

How is it ok to have own a gun, but not ok to own a joint?

In my book, it's should be okay to own the joint, too

That may be why there seems to be less crime in Canada . . . .

Oh, and there are some excellent plastic firearms made now so you don't have to touch the cold metal parts

 

[Dekka]

LOL.. but you get what I am asking. Not on this forum, but many of the people who are HUGE into their rights to carry a gun, are the same ones who want to control others in other ways.

Or they claim they want all laws to go away. And well I can't see that ending well. So at what point is it ok to control the population and in what ways? I know what I think, but want to know what others think

 

[Doberluv]

Australia's crime has increased since their ban on guns. And Dekka, you miss my point (and Patrick Henry's) and all our forefathers who began our great nation. No one says there should be total lawlessness. There ARE laws. Our beautifully crafted constitution and bill rights lays it all out like a fine piece of art work. It is set up to prevent government or anyone else to make it impossible for people to enjoy freedom without disrupting the pursuit of happiness to others...to have the opportunity to make a decent living, to be able to breath and stretch without squashing the rights of others. There is nothing that refers to an absense of laws as being a part of our country. I don't know where that came from.

Unfortunately, America is not the America I use to know. It has become very over-regulated and our politicians are disregarding and trashing our constitutional laws which were designed so beautifully to protect us from our own government. These people in power should all be booted out whenever they go against the people...which they have been doing to a large degree more than ever lately.

Our right to keep and bare arms was put in place for the very reason of protection from a power grabbing, tyranical government. That's exactly how we won our independence from England, a tyranical gov. at that time and how we hung onto it. I, for one am not about to give up 2nd amendment rights to any **** politicians.

Renee, you explain many of my thoughts about statistics and such better than I can. Good posts.

Originally Posted by Lilavati
Besides, its not about gun control that he's my hero. Its the recognition that bad things happen to good people, and that there is no defense against lunatics. The fact that bad people can do bad things is the price we pay for not living a police state. Its not just about guns. Its about pocket knives, carrying ID, groping on planes, letting your children play outside (and not being called a neglectful parent). Its about free speech. Its not just about the guns. I can think of all sorts of crazy restrictions this incident can result in, and I hope everyone takes the example of Mr. Greene and does not put those in place.

Exactly.

And Renee's comment about why there is more "safety" (eh-hem) in a police state is a good point.

 

[Dekka]

Carrie.. so am I correct in assuming you think the laws put down when the US was created have no need to evolve as the population and the world evolves?

As for crime. Sure crime sucks. But there is a difference between crime rates and serious crime and personal damage. For example lets say you were having many lethal muggings and robberies with innocents been shot. You get rid of guns and drug trafficking and shop lifting go up. Voila an increase in crime, but safer people.

As I pointed out, guns simply make it more likely for people to be seriously injured or killed when crimes are commited. Over all crime rates are the same, as people are people everywhere. Someone who wants to commit a crime (ie rob a convience store) is still going to do so. But unless its ninjas who start throwing blades all over the place its much less dangerous for everyone if no one has a gun.

A subway (fast food) was robbed here in town last week. No gun, no one was at any risk, no patron had any chance of being caught in the cross fire. It doesn't happen very often and made our main news. They got 100 I think. And before you say well what if the worker had a gun... what if? Well could they have got to it? Some scared teenager working to save up for college... Even if a criminal here HAS a gun they don't have to get all trigger happy worrying that someone is reaching for a gun, as we don't have any.

So how is having guns helping you from tyrannical gov. I would say some of the things your gov has done is a little on the tyrannical side...

 

[Lilavati]

I don't think Canada is a police state, Dekka!

I do think that it varies from country to country what rights are viewed as really important and what trade off people are willing to make. In the US, gun rights are widely viewed as very, very important. I gather that is not how it is in Canada. But here many people would feel that they had lost a very important part of their freedom if they couldn't carry. And that matters.

But I think what matters more is the tendancy, after a tragedy, to trade off all sorts of freedoms, not just guns, because the world seems like a more dangerous place.

Its not. Its just as dangerous today as it was on Friday. Its just as safe as it was on Friday. Nothing about the world changed because of this sick young man. There were sick young men before, and there will be, alas, sick young men again. But I'm not going to give up my freedoms to protect myself from the extremely rare sick young man.

For example, there is talk about banning putting gun-sights over politicians faces, because of Sarah Palin's ad campaign. I oppose this proposed law strongly. Not becauce I approve of Palin's campaign . . . I thought it was silly and in poor taste (though not violent) when she ran it. But because I support the right to free speech, and that includes making tasteless, vitriolic comparisons.

 

[ACooper]

But I think what matters more is the tendancy, after a tragedy, to trade off all sorts of freedoms, not just guns, because the world seems like a more dangerous place.

Agreed. One need only look at the state of flying in this country to know that is the God's honest truth of it.

Because of 9/11, look how far they are allowed to LEGALLY go with 'airport security'.........right up to viewing us pretty well naked! And as we've seen, it hasn't increased our safety that anyone can show.

 

[ACooper]

So how is having guns helping you from tyrannical gov. I would say some of the things your gov has done is a little on the tyrannical side...

Scares me to think how much farther they would have already WENT if so many of us WEREN'T armed!

 

[Doberluv]

Dekka or anyone from another country. You can't compare your countries to America. Our history is very unique, relatively recent and put together from VERY different reasons. Our forefathers, the whole fabric of our nation is from fruit of a different color entirely. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Naturally, you won't have the same sentiments as we do or value the same things because of phenomena like habituation, what you're use to, what a long history you may have in the way your country is. Changes are more noticeable to many of us Americans because we're on a shorter spring board, so to speak. For a once very prosperous, very free country without too much gov involvement, without too much regulation, small changes are really a big deal...at least to the older generations who haven't been brainwashed or rather, desensatized by modern times.

Laws: There are too many laws. No, no one should have the right to interfer with other's pursuit of happiness or put others' lives at risk. Of course not. But do we really need all of the laws we have? Think of all the laws which really aren't protecting anyone. They're there for some other agenda entirely...usually to favor some politician or some bureaucratic or special interest group. Taxes...sure we all need to have some taxes, but come on....what they're doing is unadulterated, criminal-like robbery. They're no better than thugs on the street.

So yeah...when push comes to shove, I hope Americans will hang onto their hats and have their guns on their hips and stand up for our rights.

 

[Doberluv]

Oh, I missed your last post while I was typing. I'll get back to it....kind of busy right now. Yes, our gov. is being VERY tyrannical right now and I've about had it. I'll be ready, with guns a blazzing and my holsters on if and when there is a revolution. There will be a tipping point where Americans (patriots, anyhow) will say enough is enough.

Laws do evolve as time does. But our constitution does NOT. (or should not) It was never meant to. It was a safeguard put in place by the genius designers of this country. It is like our bible and it is not to be screwed with. It is timeless and designed to keep the country/gov. on the right track. Time does not preclude the constitution. And those who screw with it should be ousted.

I'll check back later.

 

[corgipower]

A subway (fast food) was robbed here in town last week.

What is this? Rob a Subway week? A Subway was robbed here a couple days ago...except it was robbed at gunpoint.
*sigh*

Laws: There are too many laws.

You do know in Florida it's illegal to shower while naked and in NJ it's illegal to slurp your soup?

So yeah...when push comes to shove, I hope Americans will hang onto their hats and have their guns on their hips and stand up for our rights.

Proud to be a hat wearing American who has zero interest in owning a gun.

 

[Dekka]

I don't think Canada is a police state, Dekka!

Oh that wasn't directed at you.. someone else had mentioned gun control and living in a police state.

I do think that it varies from country to country what rights are viewed as really important and what trade off people are willing to make. In the US, gun rights are widely viewed as very, very important. I gather that is not how it is in Canada. But here many people would feel that they had lost a very important part of their freedom if they couldn't carry. And that matters.

But I think what matters more is the tendancy, after a tragedy, to trade off all sorts of freedoms, not just guns, because the world seems like a more dangerous place.

Its not. Its just as dangerous today as it was on Friday. Its just as safe as it was on Friday. Nothing about the world changed because of this sick young man. There were sick young men before, and there will be, alas, sick young men again. But I'm not going to give up my freedoms to protect myself from the extremely rare sick young man.

For example, there is talk about banning putting gun-sights over politicians faces, because of Sarah Palin's ad campaign. I oppose this proposed law strongly. Not becauce I approve of Palin's campaign . . . I thought it was silly and in poor taste (though not violent) when she ran it. But because I support the right to free speech, and that includes making tasteless, vitriolic comparisons.

I totally agree with the knee jerk reaction after a tragedy often goes much farther than is necessary. Changes should be made from logic and 'proof' vs emotion.

As I said I think people should be free to do as they wish as long as it doesn't directly cause me or mine harm. The gun site thing is beyond stupid. It doesn't directly harm anyone, nor is it dangerous. Bad taste should never be legislated against.

 

[sparks19]

Proud to be a hat wearing American who has zero interest in owning a gun.

and isn't it wonderful that you have the option to choose to own a gun or not