John Green, Father of the Little Girl Killed in Tuscon, is my New Hero
- Thread starter Lilavati
- Start date
Exactly. In my mind, those people are in the same category as someone who turns their toddler loose, unsupervised, in a yard with several large dogs and gets upset when their child is killed.
Personally I think homes with children need to teach their kids EXACTLY what the guns are and do. I fired my first BB gun (with parental help) at 1 and a half years old. I fired my first .22 when I was three. It was awesome, but at the same time a big chore because my dad sat down with us afterward and made us take apart and clean the things when we were done. He showed us what it could do, how it worked, took all the mystery away and made it a chore. When the chore was over they were put away, and we played with our toys.
We NEVER would have dreamed of playing with a gun. We were taught to have a huge amount of respect for them. Not saying toddlers should all go shooting. That could be a disaster with ignorant parents.
We did because it's part of our culture, just like the respect of firearms is part of our culture. That played a huge role in avoiding accidents.
Corgi, there are a lot of ways to get shot and survive. My husband used to work at UMC, ironically, where Giffords is now being treated for being shot in the head. His job was babysitting the suicide risks, so has seen a lot of people who shot themselves point blank in the head with a gun and lived. A surprising number went home without any complications despite a bullet passing through the brain. My cousin's husband shot himself in the head with a .22 and lived. He's fine, no brain damage, no change in personality, no memory problems, etc.
If you've ever shot a handgun you'll realize pretty quickly how hard it is to hit things. I was on the varsity rifle team and can't get a consistent grouping on a target with most handguns (which is why my home defense weapon is a rifle). Law enforcement train very often with their weapons to maintain accuracy. Now, how often do muggers go out to the shooting range with their stolen firearms to brush up on target practice?
Your chances of being hit by a shot fired from a handgun if you're running away are pretty slim. The chances of being fatally wounded are even slimmer. Most self defense classes teach women to run if someone shoves a gun in your face and tells you to get in a car. Chances of getting out of the car alive are close to zero. Running, you've got a much better chance. And that's if they bother to risk drawing attention to themselves to take potshots at a potential victim running away.
Personally I think homes with children need to teach their kids EXACTLY what the guns are and do. I fired my first BB gun (with parental help) at 1 and a half years old. I fired my first .22 when I was three. It was awesome, but at the same time a big chore because my dad sat down with us afterward and made us take apart and clean the things when we were done. He showed us what it could do, how it worked, took all the mystery away and made it a chore. When the chore was over they were put away, and we played with our toys.
We NEVER would have dreamed of playing with a gun. We were taught to have a huge amount of respect for them. Not saying toddlers should all go shooting. That could be a disaster with ignorant parents.
We did because it's part of our culture, just like the respect of firearms is part of our culture. That played a huge role in avoiding accidents.Corgi, there are a lot of ways to get shot and survive. My husband used to work at UMC, ironically, where Giffords is now being treated for being shot in the head. His job was babysitting the suicide risks, so has seen a lot of people who shot themselves point blank in the head with a gun and lived. A surprising number went home without any complications despite a bullet passing through the brain. My cousin's husband shot himself in the head with a .22 and lived. He's fine, no brain damage, no change in personality, no memory problems, etc.
If you've ever shot a handgun you'll realize pretty quickly how hard it is to hit things. I was on the varsity rifle team and can't get a consistent grouping on a target with most handguns (which is why my home defense weapon is a rifle
). Law enforcement train very often with their weapons to maintain accuracy. Now, how often do muggers go out to the shooting range with their stolen firearms to brush up on target practice? Your chances of being hit by a shot fired from a handgun if you're running away are pretty slim. The chances of being fatally wounded are even slimmer. Most self defense classes teach women to run if someone shoves a gun in your face and tells you to get in a car. Chances of getting out of the car alive are close to zero. Running, you've got a much better chance. And that's if they bother to risk drawing attention to themselves to take potshots at a potential victim running away.
I know someone who lives in a concealed carry state and went grocery shopping one evening, armed. He left the store and was walking around the corner to where he'd parked on the street, and in the alley behind the store, he heard scuffling and turned to see a man attempting to rape a woman.
He set his bags down, pulled out his gun, and - not pointing it, just holding it where the guy could see it - said "Hey."
The guy glanced at him, completely unconcerned that some guy happened to be standing there and was apparently willing to try and stop him... then did a double-take when he saw he was actually ARMED, and immediately fled.
That's why.
He set his bags down, pulled out his gun, and - not pointing it, just holding it where the guy could see it - said "Hey."
The guy glanced at him, completely unconcerned that some guy happened to be standing there and was apparently willing to try and stop him... then did a double-take when he saw he was actually ARMED, and immediately fled.
That's why.
I really would much rather not test out that theory...considering how many ways there are to get shot and not survive.
The one time I attempted riflery I had a complete meltdown at the thought of picking one up. Never got to the shooting stuff.
Yeah, see, I'd most likely transform into a huddled mess of hyperventilating tears.
The one time I attempted riflery I had a complete meltdown at the thought of picking one up. Never got to the shooting stuff.
Yeah, see, I'd most likely transform into a huddled mess of hyperventilating tears.
I am legally licensed to carry a concealed weapon.....Indiana is one of 'those' states. I CAN, but I don't. I don't know that I feel all that comfortable grocery shopping, going to the movies, or anything packing a gun around with me.......it just feels.......weird. I do sometimes have it in the glovebox of my car (mostly if it's just for transport reasons) but other than that, it's normally safe and sound at home.........and before I go to bed, I DO put it in my nightstand drawer
Not talking murder and sucide though. If you have been reading (vs skimming) my posts. Though from what I have read there is less non premediated murder in places where its hard to get a gun.
I was talking about crimes that are not inherently violent (murder is always violent) and guns escalate them into being violent ie robberies gone wrong where people end up dead.
Even if guns vs no guns were the on all murder rates.. the extra deaths from robberies and such increase the risk. That and really what do you gain from having them? From pretty much everything I have read its all about tradition (and possibly insecurity for some) not really about protection.
For example the rates of rapes etc are no lower in the US, if for example guns deterred rape. In fact the US has some of the highest rates of rape in the first world countries. Now lots of things play into rape, but its not likely guns are making anyone safer.
I was talking about crimes that are not inherently violent (murder is always violent) and guns escalate them into being violent ie robberies gone wrong where people end up dead.
Even if guns vs no guns were the on all murder rates.. the extra deaths from robberies and such increase the risk. That and really what do you gain from having them? From pretty much everything I have read its all about tradition (and possibly insecurity for some) not really about protection.
For example the rates of rapes etc are no lower in the US, if for example guns deterred rape. In fact the US has some of the highest rates of rape in the first world countries. Now lots of things play into rape, but its not likely guns are making anyone safer.
But like the health care debate, and many other debates we have...........the US is not Canada, Canada is not the UK, the UK is not Australia, Australia is not Germany, Germany is not South Africa and on and on and on.
What the people like, want, need, ask for in one country is NOT the same for the next. We are not other countries and most of us are sick and tired of leaders trying to turn us INTO other countries. Plain and simple.
What the people like, want, need, ask for in one country is NOT the same for the next. We are not other countries and most of us are sick and tired of leaders trying to turn us INTO other countries. Plain and simple.
My dad pointed out that if Mr. Crazy had happened to chose to gun down people at a conservative rally, he might not have had the chance to shoot as many people. Nor would we be putting him on trial at the moment.
He could have driven a car into the people at the rally with the same result. In the end, a tool is a tool. It's the wielder who determines what is done with it.
He could have driven a car into the people at the rally with the same result. In the end, a tool is a tool. It's the wielder who determines what is done with it.
Great idea, regulate firearms even more than they are! Look how wonderful that plan has worked for alcohol and drugs. We will never learn. Put walls around us, watch us on cameras, have armed guards walking in our midst 24-7 just like a prison, that should keep us safe because we know that no one ever gets hurt in a prison. I so hate security minded attitudes almost as much as the compromisers in the middle.
First of all, I think the father is amazing to be able to have that kind of perspective on it and I hope him and his family and the other victims and their families are able to move on.
The first site of stats posted by Dizzy had Saudi Arabia at the very bottom and I think their only real restriction is that you must be 21 before getting a permit to carry. I suppose you could make the argument that they're lying about their numbers... they also have the death penalty (ie public beheading) for murder, armed robbery, etc. and are a very religious nation... I wonder what the story is there.
SOURCE FOR THE FOLLOWING: Just Facts.-a resource for independent thinkers- Gun Control
From: A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
Also some graphs:
* During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.
* Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 15% lower
* Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect
Sorry, I'm too lazy to evaluate it myself, but it looks good from what I saw. Others, feel free to evaluate lol
_______________________________
I like guns... handguns and rifles. I wish we didn't have to keep them locked up 24/7 in our own home. I wish they weren't such a pain in the ass to acquire and transport.
I don't feel any less safe when I cross the border into Washington state where you can get a permit to carry. The thought is ridiculous. I feel unsafe (and that is a relative term, "wary" would be a better descriptor) in areas that look grungy and are sparsely inhabited by hoodlums:
(those guys are probably fine guys but you get my point, I think)
Whalley makes me a bit uncomfortable, the DTES makes me a bit uncomfortable, there were places in Paris that made me feel a bit uncomfortable. We go to gun shows and shops in Washington state like so:
and I've never felt THE LEAST bit unsafe... neither have I in the rest of Washington. Blaine, Seattle... never worried for my safety.
So I go by what the area looks like and its reputation... there are places in the UK and Canada I'd feel way less safe in than places in the US. I'm not worried about whether the area has guns or knives in it I'm worried about the people. And I'm not so sure it takes more balls to use a knife because while you do have to be up close, a gun is hella noisy and has a kick... for me it has always been kind of an "event" to pull the trigger. I guess it depends on the individual but I would probably be more inclined to say a knife would be easier to use from a psychological perspective. Plus, ya, you have to hit your target and like Romy said lol it is hard.
I mean we've had our share of school shootings in Canada and lord knows gun control didn't stop them. In Vancouver we had a bunch of shootings in a couple years back, gun control didn't stop them either.
I CERTAINLY don't want more regulation because like I said before, it's a pain in the ass and I seriously doubt most of the tedious paperwork and "travel routes" and all that crap that you have to give them does **** all. Less would be nice. I also realize that guns scare many Canadians and so I'm not petitioning to have permits to carry issued in Canada or anything. I'm pretty w/e about that. I do hope the US honors its second amendment. I don't think it needs to reform in that regard at all.
The first site of stats posted by Dizzy had Saudi Arabia at the very bottom and I think their only real restriction is that you must be 21 before getting a permit to carry. I suppose you could make the argument that they're lying about their numbers... they also have the death penalty (ie public beheading) for murder, armed robbery, etc. and are a very religious nation... I wonder what the story is there.
SOURCE FOR THE FOLLOWING: Just Facts.-a resource for independent thinkers- Gun Control
From: A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
Also some graphs:
* During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.
* Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 15% lower
* Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect
Sorry, I'm too lazy to evaluate it myself, but it looks good from what I saw. Others, feel free to evaluate lol
_______________________________
I like guns... handguns and rifles. I wish we didn't have to keep them locked up 24/7 in our own home. I wish they weren't such a pain in the ass to acquire and transport.
I don't feel any less safe when I cross the border into Washington state where you can get a permit to carry. The thought is ridiculous. I feel unsafe (and that is a relative term, "wary" would be a better descriptor) in areas that look grungy and are sparsely inhabited by hoodlums:
Whalley makes me a bit uncomfortable, the DTES makes me a bit uncomfortable, there were places in Paris that made me feel a bit uncomfortable. We go to gun shows and shops in Washington state like so:
and I've never felt THE LEAST bit unsafe... neither have I in the rest of Washington. Blaine, Seattle... never worried for my safety.
So I go by what the area looks like and its reputation... there are places in the UK and Canada I'd feel way less safe in than places in the US. I'm not worried about whether the area has guns or knives in it I'm worried about the people. And I'm not so sure it takes more balls to use a knife because while you do have to be up close, a gun is hella noisy and has a kick... for me it has always been kind of an "event" to pull the trigger. I guess it depends on the individual but I would probably be more inclined to say a knife would be easier to use from a psychological perspective. Plus, ya, you have to hit your target and like Romy said lol it is hard.
I mean we've had our share of school shootings in Canada and lord knows gun control didn't stop them. In Vancouver we had a bunch of shootings in a couple years back, gun control didn't stop them either.
I CERTAINLY don't want more regulation because like I said before, it's a pain in the ass and I seriously doubt most of the tedious paperwork and "travel routes" and all that crap that you have to give them does **** all. Less would be nice. I also realize that guns scare many Canadians and so I'm not petitioning to have permits to carry issued in Canada or anything. I'm pretty w/e about that. I do hope the US honors its second amendment. I don't think it needs to reform in that regard at all.
I have been reading your posts and you've talked about quite a lot of things, including speeding and gay marriage, none of which have anything to do with gun control. Only the second link mentions specifically murder and suicide in the title. The first link takes you to another page with a myriad of links addressing multiple issues on gun control, right-to-carry, and more, including a link to pages where research has shown NO IMPACT from right-to-carry, since it's detrimental to one's argument to pretend evidence to the contrary doesn't exist.
I believe what you're looking for, however, is addressed in the third link:
So basically, no. It doesn't escalate non-violent crime into violent crime. Confrontational crime simply goes down because criminals aren't LOOKING for a confrontation when they know it COULD escalate.
If you want more, Google will provide plenty if you simply ask.
I don't think I would ever carry a gun into public either, but I can certainly understand why other people would want to and do. I don't think the actual amount of people who DO concealed carry makes the difference, just the law itself, LOL. It's that "you never know who's packing" kind of thing.
I actually don't think my friend used to do concealed carry much before that happened. He never thought that was going to happen and that he needed it for that reason. I think he just carried it that day because he felt like it, happened to be in the right place at the right time and was packing. But he certainly carries since. I DO have Mace in my bag and carry that wherever I go... and if that doesn't work... well, I sure hope somebody like my friend is nearby!
I believe what you're looking for, however, is addressed in the third link:
So basically, no. It doesn't escalate non-violent crime into violent crime. Confrontational crime simply goes down because criminals aren't LOOKING for a confrontation when they know it COULD escalate.
If you want more, Google will provide plenty if you simply ask.
I don't think I would ever carry a gun into public either, but I can certainly understand why other people would want to and do. I don't think the actual amount of people who DO concealed carry makes the difference, just the law itself, LOL. It's that "you never know who's packing" kind of thing.
I actually don't think my friend used to do concealed carry much before that happened. He never thought that was going to happen and that he needed it for that reason. I think he just carried it that day because he felt like it, happened to be in the right place at the right time and was packing. But he certainly carries since. I DO have Mace in my bag and carry that wherever I go... and if that doesn't work... well, I sure hope somebody like my friend is nearby!
Great post Beanie. I've often thought, "if a crazed felon opened fire in a subway, who would I rather be sitting next to? Oprah? Or my dad?" lol.
I don't carry in public because I'm not accurate enough with a handgun for it to be a useful defense and rifles..yeah. lol. Plus I have Strider with me 24/7, and it's amazing what kind of a deterrent a 31" tall wolfhound has on creepy people. He's backed me up when a group of 5 young men thought he looked like a sissy dog and decided to surround us, so I know I can trust him. I've got backup mace to give us time to run for help.
At home, I assume if someone breaks in while I'm there they know my car is in the driveway. And I assume they intend to harm or kill me to get my possessions or access to my physical person, both of which are good enough reasons to defend myself with lethal force.
I don't carry in public because I'm not accurate enough with a handgun for it to be a useful defense and rifles..yeah. lol. Plus I have Strider with me 24/7, and it's amazing what kind of a deterrent a 31" tall wolfhound has on creepy people.
He's backed me up when a group of 5 young men thought he looked like a sissy dog and decided to surround us, so I know I can trust him. I've got backup mace to give us time to run for help. At home, I assume if someone breaks in while I'm there they know my car is in the driveway. And I assume they intend to harm or kill me to get my possessions or access to my physical person, both of which are good enough reasons to defend myself with lethal force.
When I was a real estate agent in Washington state, there were a couple of situations where I practiced my right to carry a concealed weapon. One was when two very sketchy brothers wanted to see some property wa-a-a-y out in the toolies. I suggested some areas that WERE out in the sticks. But the one brother said that wasn't far out enough. They really wanted to be out in the boonies. So, after finding some properties to show them, they came to my office. Boy, were they ever the epitome of deliverance red-necks, raggedy, dirty and low brow. I didn't have to take them out. I could have asked a male agent to do this. But I wanted to try and make a sale. Before they arrived at my office, I sat at my desk and loaded my .38. And I carried it in my belt. I am a crack shot and not afraid of guns...was raised with and educated in their use. Fortunately, the brothers turned out to be harmless. But you never know.
Also, while in real estate north of Seattle in the 80's, there was some kind of creep targeting female real estate agents doing open houses. They were being raped and/or murdered. This is not a comfortable position to be in...inside a for-sale house, alone for hours, not knowing when regular people are coming to see the house or what. So, again, I packed. I was not going to be a sitting duck. Bullets leave a gun very fast and there's no question about their superior protection ability...if one knows how to use one.
These serial rapists and killers are fortunately not all that common. But when they are in the news in an area that I frequent, I sure want to maintain my rights to protect myself any way I see fit. Not in any way the gov. or anyone else sees as fit. It should be no one else's business what tool a law abiding citizen uses.
It is so true what someone else mentioned way back in the thread...if they take away guns because "guns" kill, then they should take away cars because by that "logic," cars kill. And they should, by that same "logic," take away balloons because balloons kill. Will they then take away hammers, chain saws, wine, you name it because all those things kill? (by the same "logic") It's not really logic but whatever you might call it.
If any bad guy breaks into my house when I'm at home, he first must decide if he wants to live or if he's on a suicide mission because everybody has guns in their homes around these 'here parts. It's common knowledge. I even have an old target still on a piece of ply wood against a bank of earth that goes up a hill. They'd be out of their freakin' minds to break into anyone's homes around here. And ya know what? They don't. There is virtually no crime where I live, even in the mid sized cities nearest to me.
I keep one of my guns in my bedside table, loaded. (I have no young kids come here. And if I did, I'd unload it.) But I want it within reach at night just in case. It's just security. I will always have guns. I will never give up my right to keep them. If anyone tries to take them from me, they'll have to kill me first.
Also, while in real estate north of Seattle in the 80's, there was some kind of creep targeting female real estate agents doing open houses. They were being raped and/or murdered. This is not a comfortable position to be in...inside a for-sale house, alone for hours, not knowing when regular people are coming to see the house or what. So, again, I packed. I was not going to be a sitting duck. Bullets leave a gun very fast and there's no question about their superior protection ability...if one knows how to use one.
These serial rapists and killers are fortunately not all that common. But when they are in the news in an area that I frequent, I sure want to maintain my rights to protect myself any way I see fit. Not in any way the gov. or anyone else sees as fit. It should be no one else's business what tool a law abiding citizen uses.
It is so true what someone else mentioned way back in the thread...if they take away guns because "guns" kill, then they should take away cars because by that "logic," cars kill. And they should, by that same "logic," take away balloons because balloons kill. Will they then take away hammers, chain saws, wine, you name it because all those things kill? (by the same "logic") It's not really logic but whatever you might call it.
If any bad guy breaks into my house when I'm at home, he first must decide if he wants to live or if he's on a suicide mission because everybody has guns in their homes around these 'here parts. It's common knowledge. I even have an old target still on a piece of ply wood against a bank of earth that goes up a hill. They'd be out of their freakin' minds to break into anyone's homes around here. And ya know what? They don't. There is virtually no crime where I live, even in the mid sized cities nearest to me.
I keep one of my guns in my bedside table, loaded. (I have no young kids come here. And if I did, I'd unload it.) But I want it within reach at night just in case. It's just security. I will always have guns. I will never give up my right to keep them. If anyone tries to take them from me, they'll have to kill me first.
Last edited: