John Green, Father of the Little Girl Killed in Tuscon, is my New Hero

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#2
What a brave and graceful soul.
This shouldn't happen in this country, or anywhere else, but in a free society, we're going to be subject to people like this. I prefer this to the alternative.
He's so right. The price of a free society is high, but the price of the absense of freedom is all pervasive and so much higher. And you can't have it both ways. May this family find strength and some kind of peace eventually.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
46
Location
Ontario
#3
Graceful yes, not my hero. My child has not been killed by guns, and I am still glad that everyone here can't walk around with them. I have pretty much zero fear of being shot.
 

grayada1

New Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
178
Likes
0
Points
0
#4
Graceful yes, not my hero. My child has not been killed by guns, and I am still glad that everyone here can't walk around with them. I have pretty much zero fear of being shot.
IN my opinion, the people that are following the gun laws arent the people we need to fear. The criminals are not going to follow a law that says they cant have a gun, just like they arent going to follow the law that says you cant murder someone.

Guns dont kill people. People kill people.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
46
Location
Ontario
#5
Actually criminals here are MUCH MUCH less likely to be carrying a gun. And as soon as you have a gun in public you ARE a criminal. Makes it easier to remove criminals.

Yes there is still violence and some gun crime. But far less than in the US. As my dad pointed out to an American friend when visiting last month. It takes a lot more guts AND you have to get a lot closer to use a knife than a gun. Guns make violence easy... and the threat of other guns (ie other people having them around you) has been proven to not be much of a deterrent. In the same way that the death penalty isn't an effective deterrent.

People will be people everywhere. But carrying a gun doesn't make you safer, just tends to make your population more dangerous.
 

Miakoda

New Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
7,666
Likes
0
Points
0
#6
So are people not killed in Canada?

Does it make one feel safer to know that no "pit bulls" will be going around and mauling everyone in Ontario either?

As for the father of the child, God bless him. My deepest sympathies go out to him and his entire family.

What happened was horrible. It was done at the hands of a mentally disturbed person who cared for no one but himself. Until those kinds of people no longer exist, which is "never going to happen", then we will forever see tragedies such as this one.

My sympathies go out to all the victims and their families.
 

Lilavati

Arbitrary and Capricious
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
7,644
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
44
Location
Alexandria, VA
#7
Graceful yes, not my hero. My child has not been killed by guns, and I am still glad that everyone here can't walk around with them. I have pretty much zero fear of being shot.
The thing is, Dekka, I also have pretty much zero fear of being shot. And I don't carry a gun; I don't even own one. It IS more common here, but contrary to the impression given by the international news, people are hardly being gunned down right and left here. There are certain areas where gun violence is much more common, but outside of those areas, your odds of being shot, as a practical matter, are very low.

Besides, its not about gun control that he's my hero. Its the recognition that bad things happen to good people, and that there is no defense against lunatics. The fact that bad people can do bad things is the price we pay for not living a police state. Its not just about guns. Its about pocket knives, carrying ID, groping on planes, letting your children play outside (and not being called a neglectful parent). Its about free speech. Its not just about the guns. I can think of all sorts of crazy restrictions this incident can result in, and I hope everyone takes the example of Mr. Greene and does not put those in place.

And note that I say all of this after I witnessed a robbery at gun point in my own neighborhood.

P.S. If anything should come out of this, as Mr. Greene implies, it is that we need to look into getting mentally ill people help before they harm themselves or others. I do not know why this young man (or his family) did not seek help when it seems pretty obvious from descriptions of his behavior that he was severely mentally disordered. But one thing we need to consider, in the midst of our health care debate, is that it is important to everyone that people such as this receive treatment (and no, I don't mean "are locked up") before a tragedy occurs (which is more likely to be homelessness or suicide than murder, but that makes it no less tragic).
 

Miakoda

New Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
7,666
Likes
0
Points
0
#8
Lil, I have yet to see a country, free or otherwise, where bad people do not do bad things to others.
 

grayada1

New Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
178
Likes
0
Points
0
#9
again just my opinion, but i dont think because some people use guns for the wrong reasons they should be taken away from me. Even if i dont have a good use for them, if I am not going to hurt anyone with them why cant i have them?

Because someone else might kill someone with them I should lose them? well then you could use that same logic for many other things.....cars, planes, dogs.

I understand it might make it harder for someone that wants to do something bad to get a gun, but someone who wants to do something bad will do something bad and i think thats what we need to focus on, not taking something away from other people that arent going to hurt anything.

Again this is just my opinion.
 

Lilavati

Arbitrary and Capricious
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
7,644
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
44
Location
Alexandria, VA
#10
Lil, I have yet to see a country, free or otherwise, where bad people do not do bad things to others.
Well, yes. The difference is that in a police state, incidents like this do tend to be rarer. Of course, there are other bad people doing other bad things . . . . But yes, humans will do bad things to each other no matter where you live.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
46
Location
Ontario
#11
The thing is, Dekka, I also have pretty much zero fear of being shot. And I don't carry a gun; I don't even own one. It IS more common here, but contrary to the impression given by the international news, people are hardly being gunned down right and left here. There are certain areas where gun violence is much more common, but outside of those areas, your odds of being shot, as a practical matter, are very low.
Oh I know, I have visited a large portion of the US. But let me give you an example.

One of the times when we went down to KY for the Rolex we stayed in Lexington. This is not a huge city. Pop 296,545. That weekend we were there there were 3 murders (all shootings) also all unrelated. This wasn't major news. This wasn't treated as a big deal. Us visiting Canucks were shocked. Not that it happened, hey as you pointed out people will be people. But to have 3 unrelated killings in your modest sized city and it barely made the front page?

I think in some ways Americans are inured to the idea of guns. I have close personal friends who have been threatened causally in bars with guns. (drunk belligerent people with fire arms.. not something I would want to play with)

In the United States, a quarter of commercial robberies are committed with guns.[47] Robberies committed with guns are three times as likely to result in fatalities compared with robberies where other weapons were used,[47][48][49] with similar patterns in cases of family violence.[50] Criminologist Philip J. Cook hypothesizes that if guns were less available, criminals may likely commit the crime anyway but with less-lethal weapons.[51] He finds that the level of gun ownership in the 50 largest U.S. cities correlates with the rate of robberies committed with guns, but not overall robbery rates.[52][53] A significant number of homicides result as a by-product of another violent crime which escalates, with the offender going into the crime without a clear or sustained intent to kill or be killed.[49][54] Overall robbery and assault rates in the United States are also comparable to other developed countries, such as Australia and Finland, notwithstanding the much lower levels of gun ownership in those countries.[51][54]
This is what gets me. People still do bad things, but with guns they tend to do worse things.

Here you can still have guns. You just can't wander around with them. You can hunt and target shoot with them.
 

Romy

Taxiderpy
Joined
Dec 2, 2006
Messages
10,233
Likes
1
Points
38
Location
Olympia, WA
#12
Well said Lil.

My heart goes out to all the families affected by this tragedy. It hit too close to home. We used to shop at that Safeway and still have a lot of family in the area. And whether or not folks agreed with her politics, the community as a whole seemed to feel that Gifford was a really good lady. The whole thing just breaks my heart.

As far as gun control equaling less crime, it doesn't. It might mean less gun crime, but if you look at countries with broad firearm bans a lot of them saw an increase in violent crime after bans. Australia's increase was over 40% if I recall correctly.

ETA: Why does DC have the highest murder rate in the country? It's the only part of the United States where handguns are banned...
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#13
I agree with Mia, Lil and Grayda. In states and areas, such as Idaho, for instance where almost everyone owns guns, there is extremely low crime. Murder by guns hardly ever happens. Even robbery is very low. Yes, the population is low too and that might be a factor. But who wants to break into a home when the homeowner is home when the bad guy is almost certain, he'll be staring down the barrel of a gun? In other places, where guns are prevelent with the general, law abiding citizens, crime rates plummet. That has been taken notice of and documented in examples.

It is NOT guns in the hands of regular citizens that makes most crime. It is the criminals; drug dealers, organized crime, robbers who kill people, not guns. They WILL continue to get guns in the black market as they do already. They often carry guns illegally, (felons who aren't allowed guns have guns, no permits etc) Crime is high in certain areas and there are many factors. Because crime isn't as high in one country than another, it is unparsimonious to take one variable and attribute the conclusion to just that. There's the whole justice system to look at, the physical nature of a country (ie: being full of ports of entry from South America and Mexico...drug trafficing) There are many factors. In domestic violence, those who are murdered are often murdered by other means...out of the heat of the moment, lashing out with blunt objects, strangling, knifing. With pre-meditation, trying to be untraceable through gun registration/ballistics, they often avoid using guns and kill in other ways.

And as stated, this isn't about gun control, but I always jump in when my gun rights or ethics about guns are brought out. This is about the side effects of a free society and the trading a little more safety in exchange for the loss of freedom. Many in America....on account of our history would rather take liberty in spite of those side effects. As my hero, Patric Henry's address...one famous line: As for me, give me liberty or give me death is one many of us relate to.

This poor man and family who lost so much sees this. And to those patriots like me, we feel awe for him... in his agony, that he recognizes this truth. Americans must never trade their freedom for big gov. to "take care of everything" for them because permanently affixed to that, unmistakably IS tyrany, over-regulation, big government and loss of freedom to pursue happiness and the opportunity to be fruitful. We are seeing this evolving that way quite swiftly now, sadly. So, this man is a hero to many of us for in his grief, he has the strength to hold onto his inherited values as an American.
 

Lilavati

Arbitrary and Capricious
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
7,644
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
44
Location
Alexandria, VA
#14
ETA: Why does DC have the highest murder rate in the country? It's the only part of the United States where handguns are banned...

Well, lots of reasons, most of which actually don't have much to do with the ban. Note that I don't support the ban, just that I don't think it makes the gun crime here any worse, it just doesn't do any good.

The vast majority of gun killings are done with illegal guns, not legal, licensed ones. My guess, coming from Louisville, Dekka, not far from Lexington, is that those murders were by and large committed by *ahem* people of a certain race in a certain part of the city. Sadly, the murders were no big deal not because murders are no big deal in the US, but because that TYPE of murder is viewed as no big deal, tragically. But I'd also guess that the guns involved were not legally licensed guns.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#16
It's really common sense. Where guns are banned and there are a lot of bad guys, the bad guys WILL still have guns. But regular law abiding citizens, who have their guns taken away are sitting ducks for bad guys. Homes, businesses, you name it. Without self protection, the bad guys are guaranteed success when they choose to rob a bank or break into a home.

In Keenesaw Georgia, since a mandatory ordinance was put in place, where every homeowner has a gun, crime has plummeted. (not that I understand or agree with a mandatory thing like that. That's weird.) But in many place where gun bans have occured, crime has increased.
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
94,266
Likes
3
Points
36
Location
Where the selas blooms
#17
Well, yes. The difference is that in a police state, incidents like this do tend to be rarer. Of course, there are other bad people doing other bad things . . . . But yes, humans will do bad things to each other no matter where you live.
In a police state, the tendency, historically, has for the bad people to be running things and doing the bad things to other people -- but if you're in charge of making the rules you can nullify any consequences.

We don't have many shootings where I am.

But most of the population here carries.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
46
Location
Ontario
#18
For those who want

Liberty or death... how far to you wish to take that?

Do you truly want people to be totally free to do what ever they wish? Mogadishu seems a good example of personal freedom. There are pretty much no laws...

I would like the freedom to not be killed in a robbery gone wrong. There is little to no reason to own guns, other than because people can. According to Wikipedia personal (ie non law inforcement) guns are used in self defence in 0.2% to 0.8% of the time. That isn't how many times they are used sucessfully, just how many times they are used. Since they also say that 25% of americans own guns... seems the self defence angle doesn't pan out. And the fact that the presence of guns tends to make bad situations more lethal... what is the advatage of having an armed population?

Its not saving anyone, and is shown to put people in danger. Is the right to do something so important. Why have leash laws? They inhibit your freedoms to play with your dogs in the park. Why have speed limits? It just inhibits your ability to get where you are going. Why should you be punished just because some people don't maintain their vehicles and or don't know enough to slow down? I can continue. I am all for people having the right to do things that aren't causing harm, and particularly death to innocents. Esp when the only reason its happening is because people can, not because it serves any purpose.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top