A Breeders Thoughts

JennSLK

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#1
by DIANE KLUMB
Hi. My name is Diane, and I am a Breeder.
I am good at it, and I am damned proud of it.
I bought my first show dog in 1969 and whelped my first litter in April,
1975.

I have, since that inauspicious beginning, in partnership with my long
suffering husband and a few good friends produced a few dozen champions,
some top producers, a handful of Specials, and a lot of superb
close-working grouse dogs and well loved companions. *We kept a fair
number over the years and sold the rest. (NOTE: I said sold, not
'placed'.*..we'll address that particular idiocy later.) We owned a
kennel for many years, and trained gun dogs. This involved the killing
of untold numbers of game birds, all of which we ate. I have more
recipes for pheasant, grouse and woodcock than you can shake a stick at.
We showed our hunting dogs and hunted over our show dogs.
I do not believe for a minute that the whelping or sale of a single one
of those purebred dogs is in any way responsible for the euthanasia of a
million unwanted dogs a year at shelters around the country, any more
than I believed that cleaning my plate when I was a kid could in any way
benefit all the poor starving children in Africa, no matter how much the
nuns or my mother tried to make me feel guilty about it.
I couldn't see the logic then and I can't see it now (although today I
would maybe refrain from suggesting that we bundle up Sister Edlita's
meatloaf and actually send it to the poor starving children in Africa.)
Look at it this way:
If I go to a bookstore specifically to buy Matt Ridley's The Human
Genome (which, as it happens, I recently did) and that bookstore does
not have it, I will do one of two things - I will order it, or I will go
to another bookstore that does carry it and purchase it there. What I
will NOT do is take the same money and buy Martha Stewart's latest
cookbook instead, because this is not what I want.

Guilt without logic is dangerous.

Show breeders are simply not responsible for the millions of unplanned
and unwanted mongrels produced in this country. Period. So don't let
anyone make you feel guilty about it.

I do not understand why the top horse farms in this country are not in
the least embarrassed by the fact they make a lot of money doing it, yet
in the world of dogs if one is to be respected, one is to lose one's ass
financially. That is a load of horse ****, pure and simple, yet we
accept it meekly and without question.

Why is that?

Basic economic theory suggests that if we are not turning a profit, one
of two things is wrong - we suffer from poor management, or we are not
asking enough for our product to cover our production costs.

What are our costs?

Well, if we are breeding good dogs, besides basic food and veterinary
costs we ought to be adding in the costs of showing these animals, and
advertising, and health testing, which are not expenses incurred by the
high volume breeders (puppy mills).

OK, so we have much higher costs involved in producing our healthier,
sounder animals. Yet the average pet shop puppy sells for about the same
as the average well bred pet from show stock, and often they sell for
much more.

What's wrong with this picture? We're stupid that's what's wrong.
Q. Why does a Jaguar sell for ten times more than a Hundai?
A. Because it's worth more and everyone knows it.
"And everyone knows it" is the key phrase here, folks. But somehow no
one knows our puppies are worth more and we're embarrassed to tell them.
Why is that?

The difference between the sale price of a multi million dollar stallion
and what he's worth as horsemeat on any given day at a livestock auction
is quality. Yet we cannot address this issue in dogs because we are
embarrassed to talk about money and dogs in the same breath.

Why is that?

OK, I'll tell you, because someone has to come out and say this sooner
or later.

There is a war going on.

Unlike most wars, however, this one actually has three sides rather than
two.

1. We have Show breeders, who are producing a small number of
purebred dogs.
2. We have High-Volume breeders who are producing a large number of
purebred dogs.
3. We have Animal Rights Activists, who believe that neither group
has the right to breed or even own purebred dogs, much less make a
profit at it.

While the first group is busy trying to get rid of the second group
because they don't like the way they breed dogs (which by the way ain't
gonna happen as long as the American public wants purebred dogs and the
first group won't produce them) the third group is winning the war.

You think I'm making this up?

Then how come we've started saying we "placed" our puppies instead of
sold them?

We talk about the new "adoptive homes" instead of their new owners.
What's next? Instead of price of a puppy, we'll charge an "adoption fee?"
What's wrong with this new language? I'll tell you - We didn't come up with it, the Animal Rights Activists did - we are just stupid enough to use it.

We are stupid because it's based on the premise that we have no right to
own dogs. It is based on the premise that dog ownership is the moral equivalent of human slavery, and that the species Homo sapien has no right to use any other species for any purpose whatsoever, be it food, clothing, medical research, recreation or involuntary companionship.

Now, I don't know about you, but my politically incorrect opinion is: *Our species did not spend the last million years clawing our way to the
top of the food chain to eat tofu. The stuff tastes like **** no matter
how you cook it, and there is absolutely no sense pretending otherwise.

Zoology 101:

Animals who kill other animals for their primary food source are called
predators. Their eyes are generally on the front of their skulls, they
have teeth designed to tear flesh from bone, and a digestive system
designed to digest meat (like us). Animals that live primarily off
vegetation are called herbivores. They have better peripheral vision,
flat teeth for grinding, and the most efficient of them have multiple
stomachs, which we do not (like cows). And lastly, Animals who live
primarily off what other have killed (carrion) are called scavengers
(think about that one long and hard.)

Man like the canis, is a pack-hunting predator, which is probably why we
get along so well. (If that fact bothers you, get over it.) How did we get to the top of the food chain? We are the most intelligent and efficient pack-hunters ever to suck oxygen from the atmosphere, that's how. We are certainly intelligent enough to understand that maintaining that position on this small planet depends on responsible stewardship, not guilt. And we are so damned efficient that we can support a tremendous number of scavengers in our midst. Like the Animal Rights Activists, for instance. (Me, I think we should dump the whole lot of them buck naked in the Boundary Waters and see how well this egalitarian philosophy of theirs plays out, but that's probably too politically incorrect for anybody else to consider. Sigh.)

So what do we do?

Well, to begin with we need to regain control. The first way we do this
is with language, which is the tool they have been using on us. These people who don't want us to "own" dogs are likening themselves to Abolitionists. That's a fallacy, unless you accept the premise that dogs are really little humans in fur coats, which frankly is an insult to a species that has never waged war on the basis of religious differences. No, the group they really resemble is the Prohibitionists - remember them? A particularly annoying bunch of zealots who firmly believed and somehow managed to convince our duly elected representatives that alcohol was a bad thing, and any beverage containing it should be illegal in these United States of America. Very few Americans actually agreed with this, by the way, but by the time Congress got its head out of its collective you-know-what, a whole new industry had developed - Organized Crime. We look back at that whole debacle now and wonder how anything that stupid and wrongheaded ever happened.

Well, boys and girls, in the inimitable words of the great Yogi Berra:
Its's Déjà vu all over again. The Prohibitionists are back. And once again, we are buying it. Amazing.
 

Fran101

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#2
Amazing! im not a breeder, but very very true!

I also never understood, "Adoption fee" on breeders websites.. why not just "price"?

"any more than I believed that cleaning my plate when I was a kid could in any way
benefit all the poor starving children in Africa, no matter how much the
nuns or my mother tried to make me feel guilty about it."
lol that is so funny! I never understood that either!


Very well written and Very true!
 

CaliTerp07

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#5
Look at it this way:
If I go to a bookstore specifically to buy Matt Ridley's The Human
Genome (which, as it happens, I recently did) and that bookstore does
not have it, I will do one of two things - I will order it, or I will go
to another bookstore that does carry it and purchase it there. What I
will NOT do is take the same money and buy Martha Stewart's latest
cookbook instead, because this is not what I want.
I disagree with this statement. I think a very small percentage of the American population are this way, but the majority of dog owners want a dog/friend/companion, and would be perfectly happy with a dog of any breed or breed mix if it was still the right size/energy level and friendly and trainable.
 

sammgirl

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#6
Hi Cali,

I understand where you are coming from.

I think that posts like this stem from the frustration of people who actually are doing right by the breed who are sick of guilt trips from people who rescue and lump all breeders in the same catagory.

Maybe most people don't care if a dog is purebred, but I can tell you that if I had to rescue my next dog or not get a dog at all, I'd be dogless. I personally have not had a good experience with a rescued dog, and while I love my rescued dog, I would not make the same choice again.

so, I'm definitely not keeping a shelter dog from getting a home by purchasing only breeder dogs.

I think that people have the right to buy what they want to buy.
 

Pops2

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#7
Caliterp
what she is saying is that people who want a specific breed (whether they should have it or not) WILL shop around until they find someone to sell it to them rather than going to the pound & pick up just anything. AND she is absolutely 100% correct. the people you describe don't go looking for a specific breed, they browse pet finder, KSL, Craigslist & the local papers and often even go shopping at the local pound or rescue until they see something they like. while there are a lot of people like this i don't think the majority of pet owners are like this. i think the majority go deal hunting for papered & often settle for unpapered "purebreads" to save a couple hundred bucks off the going rate for BYBs. these folks are in no way shape or form going to spend the kind of money it takes for a "good breeder" to make a profit, so millers & BYBs will always exist to some extent or another.
look at it this way, MOST people don't peruse car & driver, and consumer reports before deciding what car to buy. what they do is draw on personal experience based prejudices, dad always had fords, by best friend is smart and they bought a honda, my friend in high school had a mustang & a lot of girlfriends so i'm getting a mustang. then they might shop for the best deal on what they have already decided on. same thing w/ dogs, we had a boxer growing up & it was the best dog so now i want a boxer & the BYB in the paper is the best deal, BOOM they are new "champion lined" AKC papered boxer puppy owners and supporters of their neighborhood BYB.
 
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CaliTerp07

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#8
Is this page loading poorly for anyone else? I have a white background and no ability to use quote buttons, so apologies for any funny formatting...

Maybe most people don't care if a dog is purebred, but I can tell you that if I had to rescue my next dog or not get a dog at all, I'd be dogless. I personally have not had a good experience with a rescued dog, and while I love my rescued dog, I would not make the same choice again.

so, I'm definitely not keeping a shelter dog from getting a home by purchasing only breeder dogs.
This makes me sad that since you have a dog with issues from rescue, you won't ever give rescue another chance. It takes a little more work up front to find the right dog from rescue, but it's definitely doable.

what she is saying is that people who want a specific breed (whether they should have it or not) WILL shop around until they find someone to sell it to them rather than going to the pound & pick up just anything. AND she is absolutely 100% correct. the people you describe don't go looking for a specific breed, they browse pet finder, KSL, Craigslist & the local papers and often even go shopping at the local pound or rescue until they see something they like. while there are a lot of people like this i don't think the majority of pet owners are like this. i think the majority go deal hunting for papered & often settle for unpapered "purebreads" to save a couple hundred bucks off the going rate for BYBs. these folks are in no way shape or form going to spend the kind of money it takes for a "good breeder" to make a profit, so millers & BYBs will always exist to some extent or another.
But why? Why does average joe think they need a purebred dog? I think these people are sorely confused--I can't tell you how many times someone has found out I foster and said something along the lines of "Wow, you're crazy, those dogs have so many issues" or "I don't want to deal with someone else's problems" or "I need a purebred puppy or it won't bond to me properly". There are SO many misconceptions out there, and I think those need to be debunked.

I dunno. My boss had his heart set on a Golden, had only ever had goldens, and wanted another golden. I knew of a sweet spaniel/setter/??? mix in foster, introduced the two, and he fell in love. He thought he wanted only a golden, but in truth he just wanted a dog.

I think there are absolutely a few people out there who won't settle for anything less than a single breed of dog, but I think that after you talk to people and educate them about different dogs, that number would shrink quite a bit.
 

darkchild16

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#9
I do rescue and have for YEARS. Going on 6 formally actually. And I still want a purebred. I love rescues too but Im ready for a certain dog and with small kids right now thats what I want. I see nothing wrong with going for a Purebred as a pet dog.
 

Xandra

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#10
I agree with much the breeder's article. The first time I saw "adopt" on a breeder's website... ugh where's the puke smilie? Would never "adopt" from a breeder, that right there tells me enough about them.

BUT I also agree with Cali. Many people *think* they want a breed of dog, but if you show them an awesome mutt, they'll change their minds. If someone is talking about getting a dog I always recommend shelter dogs... the problem is getting the right one.

ETA for dog enthusiasts, it's a different story. But average person who wants a dog probably wouldn't appreciate the finer points of a specific purebred anyhow. They just want a pretty, safe, easy pet.
 

sammgirl

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#11
I don't know... Cali I don't try to push you or anyone else to support breeder only dogs, even though in my heart of hearts I think that if all breeders were like my mentor we'd have practically no dogs in shelters.

They'd have sweet, well bred companions and they'd know what they were getting in regards to how big they'd get, what they'd act like, and what kind of health problems the dog could have.

They'd be educated and every puppy would be well socialized before going to their forever homes. If for some reason they couldn't be kept, the breeders would take them back and rehome them.

So, why does anyone rescue? You have no idea what you're getting. If you don't know what you're getting, then its more likely the dog will end up back in the dog recycling box ie the pound.

See, there are arguments to both sides.

I feel like rescue people are alot like religious fanatics in the sense that they try to push their "religion" on you- "you must rescue" "all breeders are bad" "why does anyone need a purebred dog?"

Well, why does anyone need a dog at all? Except for a few ranchers maybe, no one needs a dog. They're a luxury. They're companion animals.

If I felt guilted to give everything that was needy a home, I'd have so many animals that I'd be arrested as a crazy dog lady hoarder type.

So, you don't have to be sad that I won't give a rescue a home. If someone wants to rescue, that's great. It's just not me, and I don't feel obligated to do so.

Abby is my good deed LOL
 

-bogart-

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#12
I agree with the breeder and have to say I will never go thru rescue hre where i am at because of the horrindous hoops that have to be jumped thru.
If i get a mixed breed i will go to the shelter or craigslist , for a purebreed it will be a reputable breeder.

the rescues i have dealt with around here are simply to much , i mean seriously they wanted my and my childrens social security number and my driver license number and wanted to do a home check whenever they wanted. like in the evening time.
I know they are volunteers and they are overworked , and i also know that they just want the best for the dog , but i refuse to jump through those hoops and will never use there services.

I have recommend everyone i hear of who wants a dog to go to the shelter. or educate them on responsible breeders.
 

Fran101

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#14
But why? Why does average joe think they need a purebred dog?
Its not that average joe NEEDS a purebred dog, its that he wants one and he has EVERY RIGHT to want one, go to a breeder and buy one. some people just.. like purebreds.

I went through the same thing, I was looking for a dog from a breeder and had petfinder links and shelter dogs pushed down my throat every 5 minutes.. and frankly, it was more annoying than anything. I knew what I wanted and that was that.

for those that want to adopt, more power to you! I adopted kenya and she is amazing. but those that dont want to have every right not to want to, sure, educate them..not all shelter dogs are bad, messed up, etc.. etc.. but if they still want to go to a breeder than they should be allowed to.

I think people should be allowed to make their own EDUCATED choices on where they would like to get their pet. Its a big commitment and in the end, THEY will be the one living with the dog. So its their right to choose where they are going to go to purchase this dog.

and if they want a purebred dog from a breeder just BECAUSE they want a purebred dog from a breeder..then, well, so be it.
 

Pops2

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#15
Cali
i absolutely agree that what most people want is a good dog. unfortunately most people have an image in their mind of what that is & it is usually a pure bred or specific cross that they were exposed to. also unfortunately they usually are ignorant of the work put in to make the dog so amazing, they just think if they get the exact same breed or cross they are going to have the same wonder dog. also changing their mind requires as you & Xandra pointed out SHOWING them what they really want.
i too am unlikely to go through rescue, but have no problems picking up someone elses mess from the pound and putting them to work after they settle down into being a dog.
at the same time since i work my dogs i will always have a certain number of dogs gotten from the breeder.
 

AGonzalez

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#16
Its not that average joe NEEDS a purebred dog, its that he wants one and he has EVERY RIGHT to want one, go to a breeder and buy one. some people just.. like purebreds.

I went through the same thing, I was looking for a dog from a breeder and had petfinder links and shelter dogs pushed down my throat every 5 minutes.. and frankly, it was more annoying than anything. I knew what I wanted and that was that.

for those that want to adopt, more power to you! I adopted kenya and she is amazing. but those that dont want to have every right not to want to, sure, educate them..not all shelter dogs are bad, messed up, etc.. etc.. but if they still want to go to a breeder than they should be allowed to.

I think people should be allowed to make their own EDUCATED choices on where they would like to get their pet. Its a big commitment and in the end, THEY will be the one living with the dog. So its their right to choose where they are going to go to purchase this dog.

and if they want a purebred dog from a breeder just BECAUSE they want a purebred dog from a breeder..then, well, so be it.
^ this. Who is anyone to say that I don't "need" a purebred dog and need to get one from a shelter? It's my money, and whether I spend it on an adoption fee or for a purebred puppy, guess what? It's still MY money and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.

I've had both rescues and purebreds from a breeder. I prefer to know what I am getting, and if it costs me more to know what I am getting, so be it. I won't buy a Ford just because, I buy Ford's because I know what to expect, I know how they work, and I prefer them. Just because a Prius might be better on gas or the environment, doesn't mean I should feel obligated to buy it.

So, unless someone else is buying me a dog or a car, they have no right to say what I need/want/should have or should spend my money on.
 

Dekka

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#17
I would argue why does ANYONE but a breeder NEED a purebred?

Rescue dogs are great and all, but all you are doing is cleaning up a mess that in a way you are (in a small way) helping propagate. By telling so many people to rescue you are in a way telling them 'any dog will do' and that hurts people who are trying to breed ethically (ie not the breeders of the dogs needing rescues. So many people I meet have rescued because its 'the right thing to do' but they don't really know why. Some have some vague idea that all breeders are bad... (um but then how do we get more dogs?)

I wish there was a way to push purebreds more to the public. Along with the reasons a purebred dog is a good idea.. (health and temp guarantees, breeder support, health testing etc).

Yes I support rescue (I breed but also work the the JRTRO and we adopted a BC for Darien), but I am a bit torn every time I hear people raving about how everyone should adopt. The problem is much larger and complex that that.
 

Laurelin

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#18
I definitely agree with Fran's post.

I have done a lot of work in rescues (true life or death situations at a kill shelter). But I've never owned a rescue dog. (Shack wasn't one in a true sense, he was just a mutt we got as a puppy for free). I may in the future but there are only a couple breeds I'd consider rescuing and that's only because I am fairly experienced with them and believe I could find something that could work for me in rescue in those breeds. If I get a bc, I will check both rescues and breeders. If I get another sheltie, it will be a rescue. I might rescue a pap one day but other than those breeds it'll be a breeder dog for me.

I prefer purebreds either rescue or breeder. I don't really see myself with a mutt in the future. When I was looking for a dog before Mia I either wanted a medium sized herder (sheltie or bc or aussie) or a small dog. I eventually decided a small dog would fit best. First I scoured the shelters and all they had was either small poodle mixes, chihuahuas, or terriers, none of which are breeds I could see myself owning. I really looked at this one chi and tried and tried to convince myself that she was the one, but I knew she wasn't. So I went to petfinder and contacted several rescues about a couple shelties and papillons. I was turned down for all but one and that dog had an extensive bite history. I seriously considered him but decided a dog with that kind of history wasn't for me.

So that night I contacted three papillon breeders and Mia fell right into place. She cost a lot more than a rescue but I didn't get her for the 'status' or anything like that. I love the breed a lot and I don't see anything wrong with going out and buying one because I love them. I don't think I'll ever have a different small breed because they just suit me so well. Why fix something that's not broken? lol

I can guarantee when I was in highschool and we eventually ended up with 6 dogs we would have never had more than 2 if the others weren't papillons. I don't know if that makes us breedist but it is the truth. The only reason we have 5 dogs now is because we fell for papillons. In getting any of our dogs I don't feel we took a home away from a shelter dog because the shelters just didn't have what we wanted.

The most important thing for me is none of my dogs will ever see a shelter or a rescue because we spent time finding dogs that fit us and our lifestyles. If more people did that then there would be no need for shelters and rescues.
 

-bogart-

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#19
The most important thing for me is none of my dogs will ever see a shelter or a rescue because we spent time finding dogs that fit us and our lifestyles. If more people did that then there would be no need for shelters and rescues.

:hail: The best thing said in thsi thread so far! :hail:
 

bubbatd

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#20
I'm with Cali ! I was a breed snob because I was a breeder and wanted the best in my line . Ollie is my first dog without papers. I've now had many granddogs without papers and have loved them all . I am an eye person ~~~ a kind eye sells me ! Add: rock on Laurelin!
 

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