A Breeders Thoughts

PlottMom

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#41
I like the way the one French Bulldog breeder put it - asking if you can "adopt" one of her puppies, or if they are for "adoption" insinuates that they are homeless or unwanted, and is a slap in the face to ANY responsible breeder's program.
 

CaliTerp07

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#42
Iam sorry, everyone keeps saying they are trying to avoid "behavior problems" with shelter dogs...what are we concerned about? I have never has a rescue bite without ALOT of provacation. Most other things are pretty workable.
Agreed. If you spend 20 minutes talking to a decent rescue group, you can find a dog without fear or aggression issues. Will the dog pull on a leash? Probably. Jump on you? Most likely. But bite or snap or lunge at small children? I have never seen my rescue place a dog with even the smallest signs of aggression in a home with kids. And with adults, they were up front and warned exactly what the family was getting into.

People are telling anecdotal stories of "i once knew a rescue dog who did xyz...". That's goofy. I could find you stories of breeder dogs who were the same way if I wanted to.

All I'm saying is I wish the shelter were an option for the average joe dog owner. So many people seem to have the misconception of problem dogs from rescue, without ever having looked into it. If you go, you research, you can't find a dog that fits your lifestyle, great--go get it from a good breeder. But don't tell me there are no good dogs in rescue that fit what you want before you even go and look.
 

Laurelin

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#43
I just don't agree with the idea that you MUST look at rescue first. That is what I hear a lot. I don't think going to a good breeder should be just because you can't find a dog in rescue. What is so wrong with starting the search at a good breeder if you are reasonably sure that's what you want?
 

sammgirl

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#44
I just don't agree with the idea that you MUST look at rescue first. That is what I hear a lot. I don't think going to a good breeder should be just because you can't find a dog in rescue. What is so wrong with starting the search at a good breeder if you are reasonably sure that's what you want?
Yup. This.
 

CaliTerp07

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#45
I just don't agree with the idea that you MUST look at rescue first. That is what I hear a lot. I don't think going to a good breeder should be just because you can't find a dog in rescue. What is so wrong with starting the search at a good breeder if you are reasonably sure that's what you want?
Because then if that perfect dog was sitting in a shelter somewhere, it DOES die. If I had gone to a breeder, Lucy would have sat in the shelter for who knows how long, when she was the perfect dog for me.

I know people don't like to be guilt tripped or feel pressured to look to rescue, but I can't help it. For every dog I buy as a companion, that's one less dog I can rescue--so it really is one more dog that dies. I don't have an unlimited capacity for animals.

I'm not saying people should adopt the wrong dogs just for the sake of adopting. But why is there any harm in spending a little time looking, just to see what's there? If you come to the conclusion nothing works, move on. If you find the perfect dog though, it's a win-win situation.
 

Dekka

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#46
don't forget the fact by supporting good breeders you are investing in the long term health and viability of that breed, and dogs in general. Rescuing does nothing for the future, other than the future of that dog (which is a great thing, but only a stop gap method.. it does nothing to fix the problem, nor to insure the future of dogs)
 

ACooper

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#47
don't forget the fact by supporting good breeders you are investing in the long term health and viability of that breed, and dogs in general. Rescuing does nothing for the future, other than the future of that dog (which is a great thing, but only a stop gap method.. it does nothing to fix the problem, nor to insure the future of dogs)
This is probably the most important reason to have good breeders.

Not because you NEED a dog for sports, work, ob, because shelter dogs can do that most of the time.

Not because shelter dogs have 'issues'.

Not because the majority of people need or want a great pedigree or specific breed because in reality, they don't.

But what Dekka said in a nut shell is the biggest, most important reason IMO.
 

Laurelin

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#48
don't forget the fact by supporting good breeders you are investing in the long term health and viability of that breed, and dogs in general. Rescuing does nothing for the future, other than the future of that dog (which is a great thing, but only a stop gap method.. it does nothing to fix the problem, nor to insure the future of dogs)
I agree.

And ftr, both Rose and Trey were from breeders but both were bounced around homes as young dogs. Luckily they came from good breeders who took them back and found them a good home. For me keeping dogs from ever going into the shelter system is the most important thing.
 

Xandra

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#49
People are telling anecdotal stories of "i once knew a rescue dog who did xyz...". That's goofy. I could find you stories of breeder dogs who were the same way if I wanted to.
Well I think I'm pretty much the only one who did that, and if you look at my post you'll see I was quoting the same post you are. It asks what behavior problems people are worried about and says "I've never seen a rescue bite without a lot of provocation." So I wasn't being goofy I wasn't replying to a post with two relevant examples that people worry about.

Not all rescues are like yours and not all people know enough about dogs to see things on their own. And I do think getting a puppy from a good breeder of the right breed is the surest way to get the right temperament. That said I'm not against rescue dogs at all, because I agree that the large majority of them are just fine, and if someone asked me to find them a dog the first place I would go is the shelter.
 

Doberluv

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#50
Why do we have purebred dogs in the first place? Why did humans artificially select specific traits? People still look for very specific traits whether they're literally doing the job they were bred to do or they're appreciated and loved for those traits that were bred into them to do those jobs.

If no one ever buys a purebred dog again and only goes to shelters, supply and demand will be reduced for purebred dogs. If reputable breeders don't get any buyers because they've all been guilted into getting shelter dogs, they'll stop breeding. They'll have to. What would they do with their pups if no one buys them because they've been pushed and brainwashed into getting only shelter dogs....which may or may not be the right dog for them because of non-specific breed traits? Then all we'll have left are mongrels.

Who knows? Maybe that would be a good thing. Then we could start all over selecting for specific traits and try to widen the gene pools from the start and reduce some of the devestating health issues we have in dogs these days.

When I've gotten purebred dogs in the past, it's because I was looking for very specific traits...not only looks just for the sake of looks, (something no one should be ashamed of), but personality traits and all the things that make different breeds different from one another. I didn't want a dog that had who knows what all melded together. No, I wasn't hunting or herding a flock of sheep. It doesn't matter because the breed specific traits were something I wanted to live with for my own reasons.

Maybe if people put more care into what breed traits they could live with, what fit their life style and personality, there might be fewer dogs dumped at shelters. If people who breed irresponsibly (puppy mills, byb) saw that it wasn't easy finding homes (including shelters used for dumping) for their poorly bred, sick and genetically defective puppies, maybe they'd think twice before breeding so much.
 

Lizmo

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#51
Because then if that perfect dog was sitting in a shelter somewhere, it DOES die. If I had gone to a breeder, Lucy would have sat in the shelter for who knows how long, when she was the perfect dog for me.
That is like saying that if you don't buy the cute little puppy in the pet shop it will die. So we need to buy the pet store puppy so it doesn't die.

I'm not saying people should adopt the wrong dogs just for the sake of adopting. But why is there any harm in spending a little time looking, just to see what's there? If you come to the conclusion nothing works, move on. If you find the perfect dog though, it's a win-win situation.
Because if I want to go through a breeder, that means I don't want a dog from a shelter/rescue. What is wrong with that? I'm all for rescue. I have a shelter dog. I have fostered many dogs and kittens in the past. But if I want a dog from a breeder, I want a dog from a breeder. Not a rescue. You're making it sound like a terrible thing when I don't even entertain the idea of rescuing when I *know* I want to go through a breeder.
 

LilahRoot

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#52
One of the biggest reasons that I want to go to a reputable breeder for our next puppy is because I want some reassurance that the puppy is going to be healthy. I want to know that the puppy's parents were tested for health issues that are common in the breed. If I go to a rescue there is no telling whether or not that puppy is going to present with luxating patellas, a heart murmur, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, etc.
 
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#53
I know people don't like to be guilt tripped or feel pressured to look to rescue, but I can't help it. For every dog I buy as a companion, that's one less dog I can rescue--so it really is one more dog that dies. I don't have an unlimited capacity for animals.
And honestly, how far do you think that's going to get you, in the long run? ("You" in the general sense, as in any given private rescue organization.) The reactions in this thread should be a good indicator of the answer to that question.

Why is it that so many of the humans involved in rescue simply refuse to understand that what they are running is a non-profit BUSINESS. Yep, all non-profits are still considered in category "business" ... only difference is they are organized for different reasons than making/keeping profits. Their 501(c) 3 status only means that organizations having such status: a.) are eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions; and b.) such organizations do not have to pay taxes on their surplus income.

So why do the majority of rescues do anything BUT follow a business model? One part of good business is that you must make your customer (in this case "potential adopter") feel GOOD about approaching and using your service! Inducing guilt trips does anything BUT that ... because guilt is very negative. What happens when you induce negativity? People naturally turn AWAY from it and become less apt to use your service. :wall:

I get a bit frustrated when people pit rescue and ethical breeder against each other. They are my two preferred options, and they should work in tandem.

They 'should' balance each other in getting rid of mills/bybs. Rescues take dogs in tough situations. Breeders perpetuate dogs in the right way.

I support breeder dogs when I want a predictable and accurate representation of the breed. Regardless of whether we are going to compete in something or not.

I adopt rescue dogs to support the rescue effort, and because I believe in giving every dog a chance. There are gems in rescue. River is a fantastic addition to my home.

I have both, and I support both. I do not see either avenue of acquisition as questionable or immoral.
^^^ This!! :hail: :hail: GREAT post CrazyPaws!!

We also currently have both and absolutely support both. Of our two dogs, one is from a good breeder and the other pulled directly from one of the area municipal shelters. And for myself personally ... at this time and in the area I live, I would much, much rather pull a dog directly from a municipal shelter and do so myself rather than go through a private rescue organization.
 

jess2416

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#54
I get a bit frustrated when people pit rescue and ethical breeder against each other. They are my two preferred options, and they should work in tandem.

They 'should' balance each other in getting rid of mills/bybs. Rescues take dogs in tough situations. Breeders perpetuate dogs in the right way.

I support breeder dogs when I want a predictable and accurate representation of the breed. Regardless of whether we are going to compete in something or not.

I adopt rescue dogs to support the rescue effort, and because I believe in giving every dog a chance. There are gems in rescue. River is a fantastic addition to my home.

I have both, and I support both. I do not see either avenue of acquisition as questionable or immoral.
Agreed ^^^ :hail::hail:
 

corky

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#55
I like the way the one French Bulldog breeder put it - asking if you can "adopt" one of her puppies, or if they are for "adoption" insinuates that they are homeless or unwanted, and is a slap in the face to ANY responsible breeder's program.
I am a breeder (of cats) and I do use the word "adopt" because these animals are not strictly "for sale". I do not profit in any way -- I loose cash to this very expensive hobby -- and getting one of my babies is a process. Merely flashing cash will not get you one. By using the word "adopt" I think prospective families expect to jump through some hoops for me. Frankly, I am turned off by buyers who write to ask price and don't offer any further information about themselves or ask any more questions of me.

By the way, I haven't had any litters in over a year because I'm knee-deep in rescue right now and simply don't have the resources for babies.
 

Sweet72947

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#56
And honestly, how far do you think that's going to get you, in the long run? ("You" in the general sense, as in any given private rescue organization.) The reactions in this thread should be a good indicator of the answer to that question.

Why is it that so many of the humans involved in rescue simply refuse to understand that what they are running is a non-profit BUSINESS. Yep, all non-profits are still considered in category "business" ... only difference is they are organized for different reasons than making/keeping profits. Their 501(c) 3 status only means that organizations having such status: a.) are eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions; and b.) such organizations do not have to pay taxes on their surplus income.

So why do the majority of rescues do anything BUT follow a business model? One part of good business is that you must make your customer (in this case "potential adopter") feel GOOD about approaching and using your service! Inducing guilt trips does anything BUT that ... because guilt is very negative. What happens when you induce negativity? People naturally turn AWAY from it and become less apt to use your service. :wall:
This is all so true. Part of the problem is that, unlike a business that sells something like chairs, people are emotionally involved with this "product", the animals, so logic and reason often become clouded, if not lost altogether. Part of FOHA's success is that a business model IS practiced. We even have a person on staff who's title is "Business Manager" and they help coordinate those business-related things, like adoption events. Haha I'll even walk into the cattery and ask them how the cat business is, and they'll ask me how the dog business is. :p

In rescue there are all kinds of people who believe in all kinds of things, and believe them passionately. It's miraculous it works out as well as it does sometimes.:rofl1:
 
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#57
well, I invite anyone who has reservations or doubts about rescuing a dog to personally come meet 5 of the best behaved mutts out there ;)

Personally, I value a dogs life over any "beauty" that may be lost by it not being up to som' kennel clubs standard. I also value the dogs life more than any inconvience and emotions, and loss of money their health may bring. If shown two puppies, one who is my ideal, and one that isn't quite, but will die if I don't take it. I will take the less than Ideal puppy, love it, work with it and value it for being the induvidual it is. Warts and all. Because I feel thats the right thing to do:)

Your right, guilting doesn't work. Som' of us tho, feel like we carry the guilt of others who rationalize their way toward a PB puppy. Its hard for it not to spill out occasionally. Those that are VERY committed to this carry a huge burden.
 

AGonzalez

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#58
Agreed. If you spend 20 minutes talking to a decent rescue group, you can find a dog without fear or aggression issues. Will the dog pull on a leash? Probably. Jump on you? Most likely. But bite or snap or lunge at small children? I have never seen my rescue place a dog with even the smallest signs of aggression in a home with kids. And with adults, they were up front and warned exactly what the family was getting into.

People are telling anecdotal stories of "i once knew a rescue dog who did xyz...". That's goofy. I could find you stories of breeder dogs who were the same way if I wanted to.

Goofy huh? So the fact that I didn't "once know a dog" but once GOT a dog from a shelter that about took my hand off is goofy to you? He seemed just fine there, they said he'd been around children, was housetrained, etc, etc...

More like none of the above. That's not an anecdotal story, that's a "it happened to me and I learned my lesson".

There's a reason a lot (not all) of those dogs are in the shelter, and it's not because Fido was a good dog.

You have your opinion and I have mine, but to say anyone is "goofy" for sharing an experience they had is just being inconsiderate. Let's all pray you never have a bad experience.
 

ACooper

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#59
There's a reason a lot (not all) of those dogs are in the shelter, and it's not because Fido was a good dog.
I am in NO WAY discounting what happened to you or your previous experience with adopting a dog Camp, I just wanted to correct this part of your post.

It should read: There's a reason for a TINY FEW of those dogs to be in shelters.

The biggest reason the MAJORITY of dogs are in shelters is due to Irresponsible owners, plain and simple. Whether they were irresponsible in letting their dog have a litter, intentionally bred that litter, let their dog run loose and get picked up, didn't want search for it, offered very little training and/or attention to the dog until it was so out of control they dumped it, or some combination of the above.

Then you have the mills and BYB that SELL all these dogs to the irresponsible owners.......and of course the irresponsible owners who crank out their OWN puppies to sell or give away :(

THAT is the boiled down truth of shelter dogs. Yes, I definitely agree that there are dogs in the shelter like you got to experience...........but again, IMHO, THAT even comes back to irresponsible owners.

I'm sorry to say that I know Orson, I know his quirks, his dislike of children, and his other issues. If it came down to me not being able to keep him, there is no way in HE!! I would dump him in a shelter or even rescue. I would most likely have him put down to be SURE he didn't end up with idiots who would adopt him out to unsuspecting people.

THAT is ALL part of being responsible..........it's the nasty side of it, but still part of it.
 

Doberluv

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#60
I think anyone who gives a good home to any dog, purebred or shelter or one you find in the ditch in a garbage bag at 4 weeks old (Toker) is doing a fine thing. It's one less puppy in a rotten, abusive home. When I had my purebred dogs, I think they had a wee of a good life, great places to hike, lots of involvement, attention, training, love. And I'd think to myself, what if I hadn't gotten this puppy? Where would he be? Would he be in an okay home, but not having that good of a life? Would he be in a home where he is scolded and treated roughly or not fed right? There are plenty of purebred dogs who slip through the cracks too and spend their lives being mistreated. So, shelter, rescue (whether organized or not) purebred....anyone who gives a good home for any dog is doing a good thing. I'm all for supporting shelters and I do. But I'm more for supporting dogs in general, not just from one specific kind of place. Being euthanized because there are too many dogs in shelters isn't, IMO, the worst fate for a dog. Languishing in shelters with no home is nothing but tragic. Purebred dogs that are tied up to a tree all day long and ignored are tragic too. And I've seen more than my fair share of that as well. There can be a lot worse and that goes for any dog.
 

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