What's so bad about breeding 'designer' dogs?

[corgi_love]

I honestly do not see sound logic in the whole getting rid of already established breeds argument... NO ONE here wants to kill dogs, or eliminate breeds.

Thank you and I have to agree with just about everything you said.

Psyfalcon- I know you are trying to prove a point by using a breed I am obviously fond of. The fact is, Corgi's were around long before heelers, so that's another part of why your example is crappy. Not only thus, I also fail to see your point in telling me that other dogs herd besides corgi's. Thanks for informing me, I had no idea that all herding dogs herded, that all working dogs worked, thank you! Lol, not try to be rude, it's just that you aren't telling me anything amazing or making a valid point, not nearly enough to change my mind anyway. Heelers and corgi's were bred for different reasons. And whether a heeler was bred for this and a corgi was bred for that, it doesn't really change breeding for cuteness.

 

[Psyfalcon]

I wasn't the one that started with the corgies. Nor the removing breeds.

We're trying to show that we already have many dogs that do the same thing, just with some regional variation. Since we already have dozens of similar breeds, why create a new one? The answer is that they do something slightly differently. No one is complaining about the 6 retrievers, 2 water spaniels and a standard poodle that the AKC has that do "exactly the same thing." The water spaniel is better in marshes, canoes and rowboats. The Lab was supposed to go home with the family, while the Chesapeake guarded decoys overnight.

An Australian Hairy Retriever (a Labradoodle in 15 years) does not do exactly the same thing as a Lab, or a poodle. It has a cute fluffy coat, loves to fetch, but does not require shaving like a poodle. They're more outgoing than some poodles but less likely to let someone walk into the house when you're not home than a Labrador.

If we were only allowed one dog for each task, well, take your pick, you'd get an ACD or Corgi, not both, because the differences are too small. They're active, herd cows, can be dog aggressive, and some big corgis can rival small cattle dogs in size. But we all know an ACD and Corgi are different dogs.

I just don't see why there isn't more room for more types of dog. Being a self described corgi lover, maybe you've found the dog for you, but I know a ton of people who can't find the perfect dog for them.

 

[Laurelin]

Thank you and I have to agree with just about everything you said.

Psyfalcon- I know you are trying to prove a point by using a breed I am obviously fond of. The fact is, Corgi's were around long before heelers, so that's another part of why your example is crappy. Not only thus, I also fail to see your point in telling me that other dogs herd besides corgi's. Thanks for informing me, I had no idea that all herding dogs herded, that all working dogs worked, thank you! Lol, not try to be rude, it's just that you aren't telling me anything amazing or making a valid point, not nearly enough to change my mind anyway. Heelers and corgi's were bred for different reasons. And whether a heeler was bred for this and a corgi was bred for that, it doesn't really change breeding for cuteness.

And as well several breeds also work as guide dogs. Yet there has never been a breed specifically tailored to being a guide dog.

I just fail to see how the breeders breeding labradoodles for guide dogs are doing anything wrong. We're not talking throwing two random dogs together for a cute pup, we're talking purposeful breedings. To me if it works, then it works....

If they have better success with the crossbred dogs as these types of workers, why try to force a poodle into a job it isn't as good at?

As for breeding for cute.... there are plenty of breeds bred with appearance highly in mind when creating them. Leonbergers were bred to look like the lion on the coat of arms, weren't they? Papillons have erect ears simply for the fact that the erect eared toy spaniels seemed more fashionable at the time. It's partly what distinguishes them from the rest of the continental toy spaniel dogs. Heck, they're even NAMED after their appearance.

No, there is nothing right with crossing a poodle with every living breed on the planet but imo a labradoodle can be bred right.

Anyways....
I think that's the same guy, Romy, but not the same post. Ah well...

 

[GlassOnion]

Hrm, why is breeding a guide dog now a days any more wrong than whoever bred for yet another herding dog back in the day?

Are we stuck with the breeds we have now a days forever? That's not how evolution was meant to happen. Course you're not meant to control it either, granted, but it seems ridiculous to go "HERE IS THE LINE! NO MORE PAST THIS POINT!" even though there are obvious, non-frivolous reasons to have such a dog in existence. Of course you can use another dog for a guide dog, but as pointed out that could be said for many, many breeds.

 

[shadowfacedanes]

Hrm, why is breeding a guide dog now a days any more wrong than whoever bred for yet another herding dog back in the day?

Because, we have dogs that already proven to be suitable for guide dogs, and we have zillions of dogs dying daily that COULD serve that purpose. There are dozens of groups across the country that take pound dogs and train them to be service dogs, guide dogs, etc.

"Guide dog" isn't an inherited trait. How many of a litter of dogs bred to be guide dogs actually pan out to be guide dogs? What happens to the rest?

Herding dogs are natural herders..it's in their genetics. Thus, when breeding for a herding dog, you pretty much know you're getting pups that have the instinct to herd.

When labradoodles are born with the instinct to guide, I'll be all for it. Til then, I don't see any reason why the 1 zillion and 1 breeds already in existence can't provide that service, and why it's necessary to even try it?

 

[Renee750il]

Hrm, why is breeding a guide dog now a days any more wrong than whoever bred for yet another herding dog back in the day?

Are we stuck with the breeds we have now a days forever? That's not how evolution was meant to happen. Course you're not meant to control it either, granted, but it seems ridiculous to go "HERE IS THE LINE! NO MORE PAST THIS POINT!" even though there are obvious, non-frivolous reasons to have such a dog in existence. Of course you can use another dog for a guide dog, but as pointed out that could be said for many, many breeds.

Good points, GO. And it isn't just service dogs, even though that's where the emphasis is in this discussion.

The Doberman is a modern creation. There wasn't exactly a dearth of breeds that could do exactly what the Doberman is designed to do, but it's nice having so many pretty Dobes on the board

 

[corgi_love]

Have we all forgotten my first post?

The problem with that statement is that Labradoodles, Puggles, and so forth are bred for personal gain. Every AKC accepted breed, for example, are bred for a purpose. A Collie herds, a Rat Terrier hunts vermin, a Newfoundland does water rescue, all of them have a purpose. "Doesn't shed" or "Is really sweet" is not a reason to create a breed. So if there is a truly valid reason for needing a certain breed of dog that's just not out there, then by all means PLEASE take the logical steps to create that breed. But as far as I am concerned I don't see the purpose and a half beagle have pug(not to bash puggles, I know a sweet few).

So if a person needs to cross a breed for an actual and true purpose, does proper health testing and screening, doesn't bred for money, and is considered by many a "reputable" breeder- go for it. Otherwise, please go rescue the mixes your creating that don't have homes and don't add to that ever growing list.. please.

The problem with disgner breeds for me is above. So. That was my original point. Then finally someone came up with the purpose of a labradoodle, guiding. All I am trying to say is that I fail to see the purpose in breeding for hyperallergenic breeds when the list we have is so great. To be honest, I think that it is just an excuse for these breeders to breed doodle mixes. Aussie-doodles, labradoodles, goldendoodles, etc etc etc... sure they don't shed, A+! But there are already a long list of dogs serving this purpose. While I don't disagree with finding a good guide dog, I just don't see the need in creating a breed for it when we already have so many that are great at it. BUT. If a certain person bred, trained for guide dog use, health tested, is deemed reputable, and are bred for and given to the in-high-need(???) blind people with allergies to dogs that just can't find anything else, by all MEANS go for it. But I fail to see that in doodle breeders, so I just don't agree with it until it truly is what you are defending it to be. Yes? Yes.

PS- Shadowfacedanes, super great point. I am sure there is TONS of potential being thrown away in shelters :/

Laurein, hello I believe the toy breed talk was already discussed. I don't really care for toy breeds so I fail to have any knowledge about them.

 

[pitbullpony]

Can anyone point out some dog guide organizations using labradoodles/golden doodles ~ I've been through 3 pages of Google "guide dogs for the blind" and can't find any organization that is touting them/training them or using them; it may be because Google loves to provide regional searches; maybe I'm just missing the pages (they might be in Idaho for all I know); but would really like to see what an established organization that is already in the process of training/breeding dogs as service animals has to say about Xdoodles.

Oh; and sadly; one organization mentioned producing 500 puppies in a year; and having 1/2 work out - yikes!

Reading a few of the other ones; they breed a bitch on both heats in a year to produce as many pups to eval and train as possible.

I think we could leave the breeding of doodles to the established organizations; they certainly crank out enough w/o the help of byb.

 

[Squishy22]

Are labradoodles AND goldendoodles both on the road to becoming the best low-shedding service dogs, as some would say? I always get the two mixed up.

People say... whats wrong with making more breeds? Why should we stop? But if there was a responsible malti-poo, puggle, yorkiepoo, chockapoo, schnoodle, or a pomapoo bred to be a new companion dog, would you be against it? Its bred for a reason, to be a companion... just like the toy dogs of today, they started somewhere also. Or are you just strictly for making new breeds that can be a low-shedding service dog that is better than the ones we already have?

 

[Psyfalcon]

Well to me, there has to be some reason to do it, besides marketing.

The low allergy guide dog is the easy example for me. The various other toys... well, sometimes I wonder why we need more than 2 toys in the first place Really, though, the breeder should be able to explain why their new breed or mix is better than existing breeds.

Is a malti-poo better than a maltese for some people? Is it better than a poodle for some reason? So many of them turn out into white fluffballs, I'm disinclined to let cuteness count here...

There is a cute puggle at the dog park. Its taller and leaner than a pug, much more active, with no snorting (like I hear from some walking pugs) but still has a pug like face, and good proportion. If that could be fixed, it might make a good new breed.

 

[chanda]

it takes a lot of generations, health testing, and more than just the two breeds to come up with a good cross breed...

 

[lizzybeth727]

Oh; and sadly; one organization mentioned producing 500 puppies in a year; and having 1/2 work out - yikes!

I think this is the primary reason why developing a new breed to use as guide dogs is a great idea. I know of one service dog organization (though I'm sure there are others) that breeds their own dogs and has to release 70%. The organization I'm with gets all their dogs from shelters/rescues - but we still have to temperment-test about 1000 dogs to find ONE dog to pull from a shelter, and still 40-50% of ours end up being released.

Good service/guide dogs are hard to find because they have to fit in such a small and specific mold. They have to be first, a general size (usually between 50-85 pounds) and physically healthy (no hip dysplasia, etc.). Shelter dogs must also be of a certain age - ours are generally between 8 months and 2 years old. Of course all of these things can be somewhat controlled through good breeding - but it gets more complicated. Temperment-wise, service/guide dogs have to be extremely people-oriented - they'd rather pay attention to their person than everything else in the environment. But, they have to also be able to live in a kennel for the 1-2 years of their training, and they must not develop separation anxiety. They must be confident enough to be able to encounter countless distractions in public while still being able to train, but they cannot be so confident that they vocalize in public or guard. I know my personal dog would not be able to pass the temperment tests, and I don't know of any of my friends' dogs who would be able to pass, either.

 

[mrose_s]

on these crosses supposedly helping people with allergies, I was reading something interesting the other day.
Most people arn't allergic to the fur, they're allergic to the saliva. Having a dog that barely sheds doesn't combat that at all.
Apparently there is one dog breed with different enzymes or something on their tongue which makes them truely good for people with allergies. I don't know what the breed is though.

 

[LauraLeigh]

on these crosses supposedly helping people with allergies, I was reading something interesting the other day.
Most people arn't allergic to the fur, they're allergic to the saliva. Having a dog that barely sheds doesn't combat that at all.
Apparently there is one dog breed with different enzymes or something on their tongue which makes them truely good for people with allergies. I don't know what the breed is though.

I thought it was cats that they were allergic to saliva? I also have to disagree about non shedding not helping, I have a cousin with terrible allergies, some life threatning (Peanut) He wanted a dog badly and they looked and looked and ended up with a Bichon (sp?) he has been fine, no issues at all.... But when they stayed with me once, my Jrts had him wheezing and in bad shape after a couple of days, they wound up staying in our Camper.

ETA, ok I just did some looking, and with dogs its an either or, however the few sites I hit did say that even with the saliva there was something about the lack of dander in a low/no shed breed meaning the saliva does not "stick" to the dander??

All I know for sure is it worked for Nick, who could hardly breathe in my own home.

 

[lizzybeth727]

^^^^I agree, I knew someone who had terrible dog allergies, and she adopted a poodle mix (no one knows the mix) from a shelter and had no problems. I also have a cousin, though, with terrible animal allergies, who was licked by her sister's dog (a bichon-cavilier, "designer breed"), and broke out in the area of her leg where she was licked. So maybe it depends on the person.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Can anyone point out some dog guide organizations using labradoodles/golden doodles ~

Here's one!

http://www.k94life.org/html/current_puppies.htm

They're service dogs, not guide dogs, but I think it'll do. Their website is far from complete, and they don't talk about what breeds they use specifically. But if you look at the pictures from this link, there are several puppies that are either poodles or poodle crosses (hard to tell for sure from the picture... maybe some poodle people could tell).

I'm sure there are more orgs but I haven't found them yet.

 

[Renee750il]

I guess, when it comes right down to it, I would rather see someone breeding Goldendoodles or Labradoodles PROPERLY . . . with testing for health, temperament, etc., than to see someone breeding a pure breed of any kind with sketchy genetics and a long list of titles.

 

[Lilavati]

I think some of the crosses have a future, specificially Goldendoodles and Puggles . . . and I do not, in principle, have a problem with someone inventing a 'standard' or at least guidelines, and creating a new breed, especially if it fills a useful nitche. Frankly, if someone wants to breed for health, temperment, and a general look/disposition and is willing to do so consistantly and responsibly, I'm all for it.

Unfortunately, though there are responsible breeders of crosses, they are awfully thin on the ground, especially compared to the backyard breeders and the puppy mills. I'm not sure what the ratio is, but its very low. There is enough trouble with people irresponsibly breeding purebreds, for which there is an agreed upon standard . . . when you're making a 'new breed' and anything goes, the slimeballs are going to be out in force.

Which is why I look very leerily on cross-breds. Not because I actually oppose the essential idea, or think that all the breeds we have are all we need, but because of the fact that those who do breed them responsibly are a tiny minority, selling to an equally tiny minority of knowledgable owners who want to buy such a cross from a responsible breeder.