What's so bad about breeding 'designer' dogs?

[pitbullpony]

I know some labradoodles/goldendoodlees are in the OFA

but can anyone point out some of them doing anything?
Like agility, obedience, anything to let me see them being obedient; 'cause the few that I've met - about 10 (who are all possibly related) were obnoxious dummies; high falutin' like the poodle; but dumb blondes. Their owners love them; but they are simply pets; and no improvement over anything else that a simple backyard dog could have been. Every single one I've seen (about 10) had to be groomed as if they were a poodle AND shed hair, yay, two hair coats for the price of one! Are there any scores, teams, videos that anyone has seen of these dogs performing? Curious.

I have gone through the guide dogs for the blind websites; here and overseas; 1 out of the 10 or so I visited mentioned the golden/lab doodle and that was the 3rd choice of breeds they use. Are service people using them; because the blind organizations do not seem to?

I guess I'm in the same boat as many here; if they aren't being bred to provide a service that is unique; could their owner's at least state that the dog's are merely being bred to look cute? And yes I know many breeds "services provided" are no longer unique; but surely there was an alternative to the labradoodle? Medium sized dog with less dander than most?

 

[corgipower]

but can anyone point out some of them doing anything?
Like agility, obedience, anything to let me see them being obedient; 'cause the few that I've met - about 10 (who are all possibly related) were obnoxious dummies; high falutin' like the poodle; but dumb blondes. Their owners love them; but they are simply pets; and no improvement over anything else that a simple backyard dog could have been. Every single one I've seen (about 10) had to be groomed as if they were a poodle AND shed hair, yay, two hair coats for the price of one! Are there any scores, teams, videos that anyone has seen of these dogs performing? Curious.

I haven't heard of any that are in performance events, but most of the people I know are doing AKC. I did have one labradoodle in training with me and she was great. She was very smart and a good worker with nice drive. She could have competed if the owners had been into that.

I also have bathed a couple of labradoodles and the coat was very easy. They didn't shed. Wash and wear pretty much. A quick blow dry and about a minute of brushing.

 

[GlassOnion]

I know some labradoodles/goldendoodlees are in the OFA but can anyone point out some of them doing anything?

They're good guide dogs. We have an organization on campus where we train guide dogs the basics and then they get put with a more advanced instructor to finish out their training. The majority of our dogs now a days are labradoodles.

 

[corgi_love]

Sorry but I fail to see that being a good guide dog as a valid reason to breed them labradoodles or goldendoodles, or whatever. I don't see any failure in the top three guide dog breeds(Lab, Golden, & GSD's) and any reason that we need to get more in there. I know that there are more breeds than just those three who are excellent guide dogs.

Can you PLEASE tell me why you need to add a doodle mix to this list of hyperallergenic dog breeds? Thanks.
Airedale Terrier
American Hairless Terrier
Barbet
Basenji
Bedlington Terrier
Bergamasco
Bichon Frisé
Bolognese
Border Terrier
Bouvier des Flandres
Cairn Terrier
Chacy Ranior
Chinese Crested
Coton De Tulear
Dandie Dinmont Terrier
Fox Terrier (Wire)
Greyhound
Havanese
Irish Water Spaniel
Italian Greyhound
Kerry Blue Terrier
Lagotto Romagnolo
Lhasa Apso
Maltese
Miniature Poodle
Miniature Schnauzer
Peruvian Inca Orchid
Portuguese Water Dog
Puli
Samoyed
Scottish Terrier
Shih Tzu
Silky Terrier
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier
Spanish Water Dog
Standard Poodle
Standard Schnauzer
Tibetan Terrier
Toy Poodle
Welsh Terrier
West Highland White Terrier
Wirehaired Dachshund
Yorkshire Terrier
Xoloitzcuintle

 

[GlassOnion]

Sorry but I fail to see that being a good guide dog as a valid reason to breed them labradoodles or goldendoodles, or whatever.

Hey, you just asked what they were good for. I never said it was a good reason to create a breed.

They do make good guide dogs, though. You can't deny that.

 

[Psyfalcon]

What better reason is there to breed dogs than to help people? Raising a Labrador for service work will turn puppy raisers grey (even the 10 year olds in 4H), GSDs need to have most of their natural temperament for protection bred out of them, and Poodles, as others have said, can be too aloof around strangers.

Hypoallergenic? Which one of those you listed do you want to entrust your life to? The terriers or the sighthounds? No thanks, I'll take one of the Retrievers or a Labradoodle if I need a guide dog, ok?

Is that not what everyone just got done saying? The reason we should only have current breeds is because they were created to do a job? Guide Dogs are a new purpose that no other dog has been bred to do. Some fill in quite well, but maybe there is room to improve. Theres only one way to find out...

 

[IliamnasQuest]

A year or so ago I did an extensive search for "doodle" breeders (and I agree with those who dislike the word - how serious CAN you take someone who uses that as part of the breed name?). This is what I found:

The vast majority of doodle breeders were in the early stages of crossing - straight poodle/lab or golden or whatever crosses, or second generation crosses. The puppies were obviously not consistent.

The vast majority of doodle breeders were NOT doing health testing, or doing very minimal health testing on their breeding stock.

The vast majority of doodle breeders were claiming "hypoallergenic" status to their dogs, simply because they were a poodle mix. This goes directly against genetic logic, but it evidently helps them sell puppies.

The vast majority of doodle breeders were claiming that their dogs were healthier than purebreds of any of the breeds they were using in their mixes, even though most of them were not doing any sort of true health screening - but, again, claiming this helps them sell puppies.

The vast majority of doodle breeders were producing numerous litters per year and their websites were full of cute photos of puppies - after all, cute sells!

The vast majority of doodle breeders were asking very high prices for their mixed breed puppies, in spite of not producing consistency or proving health on their breeding dogs.

There is just no way for me to take doodle breeders seriously when this is what you find with so many of them. I truly think that most have found a cash crop with these mixed breed dogs and that's why they're breeding. This is a travesty in my opinion.

Do I think it's a different story with the serious ones who may be trying hard to make this into a "real" breed? Well, no, I guess I don't. The problem is that to truly design a new breed, you have to be extremely dedicated to the genetics and willing to produce a large number of puppies from many generations in order to finally get to the point where the breed is actually established and consistent. Yes, I'm glad that there were people out there willing to do this in order to make the breeds I now own. But with the number of breeds already in existence, what truly is the point of trying to develop new ones? In the process of development, there will be so many "throw-away" dogs that don't meet the breeder's standard - hundreds per breeder, most likely. These dogs aren't truly "doodles" or whatever the breeder is aiming for - these are by-products of the experimental stage of breed development, and many of these dogs are going to be stuck in shelters or euthanized because they can't find enough people to buy them. If they sell them as the breed they're promoting, then they're lying to the public and that puts them directly back into the "bad breeder" status, which again defeats the purpose of trying to responsibly establish a new breed. UNTIL the breed is actually established and consistent, the offspring are simply mixed breed dogs.

And this DOES go directly back to the "shelters are full" concept. Breeding all these mixes in an effort to establish the breed is definitely going to add to the already too-many dogs that are euthanized every year in the U.S. at least. Either that, or the breeders will keep kennels full of dogs that aren't quite what they want, and these dogs will live a life as a kennel dog with little outside interaction. Personally I don't think that's a good way for a dog to live. And in this day and age, with the number of mixed breeds already needing homes, is it truly a kind or considerate concept to try to produce a new breed, when it's going to mean that a lot of dogs will necessarily be discarded along the way?

To me, in today's world, development of a new breed is 100% a selfish act on the part of the human. Do we NEED these doodles? Of course not. I don't know about where you guys live, but where I live the shelters are full of labramutts and goldenmutts and huskymutts. Many of these dogs will die because there aren't enough homes available here. Why add to that?

And that being said, I don't feel in the least bit guilty for buying a purebred dog from a responsible, respectable, GOOD breeder. There are plenty enough breeds to choose from, and there are good breeders in every breed already. They're not the ones creating the dogs that fill the shelters and I'm not going to dump my dogs when they get too big/too hairy/too active, etc. Since neither of us are the ones creating the problem, there is no need for me to feel guilty if I choose not to get a dog from the pound. Those feeling guilty should be the ones breeding indiscriminately, and that includes many (probably most) of the doodle breeders out there.

Just my brutally honest opinion, as always .. *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Dekka]

While all the top is true. I will ask again. If shelters are full of JRTs and Labs and other pure but byb and mill dogs, should ethical JRT and Lab breeders stop breeding?

See I don't see it as selfish, any more than breeding any kind of dog, as long has you have good contacts and screen not only for health but for puppy buyers. I agree there will be lots of non perfect dogs, but I know of conformation breeders who litterally pump out pups in the hopes of getting a top show dog. How is this different-95% of these pups end up in pet homes either way.

People obviously want doodles, so is it better to let the byb types fill that niche, or people who are dedicated to creating a healthy and sound new breed?

 

[Fran27]

People obviously want doodles, so is it better to let the byb types fill that niche, or people who are dedicated to creating a healthy and sound new breed?

I wouldn't mind, but who?

And don't mention those two Australian puppy mills... They might be doing lots of research but breeding hundreds of puppies every year and selling them $2k or more each is nothing else than a puppy mill.

And I have yet to see anyone else breeding doodles that are close to what the 'breed' should be. So there's the problem right there.

 

[Laurelin]

Hey, you just asked what they were good for. I never said it was a good reason to create a breed.

They do make good guide dogs, though. You can't deny that.

I can back you up on that. I know many a doodle guide dog around here.

 

[SizzleDog]

I have not met a single "friendly" standard poodle, ever. Not to say they don't exist, but as a whole their tendency is to be aloof with strangers, and to many of the standard poodles I have met that translates to "growling/showing my teeth to strangers when my or my master's space is invaded".

How many show poodles have you met, may I ask? I know three standard poodle breeders, and their dogs are amazing. They're jolly clowns, very outgoing and friendly not a mean bone in their bodies. I intend to get a poodle from one of the breeders in the future. I am very impressed with the Standard Poodle bred for the show ring, at leat here in the Midwest. Solid temperaments, great focus, wonderful obedience and agility dogs.

IMO saying that poodles aren't friendly is like saying pit bulls are vicious - it's an unfair generalization.

 

[Dekka]

I wouldn't mind, but who?

And don't mention those two Australian puppy mills... They might be doing lots of research but breeding hundreds of puppies every year and selling them $2k or more each is nothing else than a puppy mill.

And I have yet to see anyone else breeding doodles that are close to what the 'breed' should be. So there's the problem right there.

I have no idea. That wasn't my argument, it was going back to the OP.

If people want to do it ethically and have the resources to do so, I have no objections. I know of a few fantastic golden/lab doodles. I would never own a poodle or a lab/golden.. but I have met a few goldendoodles I would take. There are a few in agility and they are fun dogs and are doing well.

Those who say there are too many dogs in shelters-I asked if good breeders of established breeds should stop breeding if there are lots of their breed in shelters. IMO the issue is numbers of individuals not numbers of breeds.

 

[Zoom]

I have met a wide variety of doodles, thanks to living in a city where too many people have too much disposable income and not enough brains. That's not directly solely at people who buy doodles; these people also will drop $2K on "wheatens" that only passingly resemble what they're supposed to and buy "cockaliers", etc. The petstores around here make a killing off stupid people.

Ok, I digress. Back on track. I have met labdoos, goldendoos, cockapoos, woodles (wheaten/poodle) and that's just off the top of my head. I have yet to meet two Labdoos that look the same or are consistant in coat or temperment type. Maybe this is the breeders around here, I don't know. But the goldendoos seem to be slightly more consistant in terms of coat (though many still shed, many also have that wool coat that is the desired one), though they bounce around in terms of temperment. I know of three dogs that stand out as what I think people are after when they breed/get doodles but that's three out of x number that I've met. Not very good odds.

Of course, around here, again with the petstores factoring in, most of these doodle breeders are starting with crappy stock. The general specimen of Lab around here is cringe-worthy and I've had more poodles show their teeth to me than not. There are a couple awesome standards I know, but it's very hit and miss. Oddly enough, one of the coolest doodles I've met was that woodle...and I REALLY don't like wheatens. At all. But he was cool. Except for his coat...it might have been non-shedding but HOLY CRAP did it pick up smells like a sponge!

Ok, see how meandering and rambling this post is? This is reflective of the majority of doodle breeders. They generally have their sites set on the cashflow breeding doodles can make. I actually wouldn't mind horribly if a group got their act pulled together in a serious way and really made an effort to standardize WITHOUT soaking the public in buying the "rejects". For a project this ambitious and to do it properly, I almost think old-school culling would have to factor in. The comments about the shelters are correct...they certainly don't need an increased inflow of poodle-mixes, especially not the big ones that shed a lot. Maybe that sounds harsh, ok, it does, I admit. But the resulting "run-off" from trying to set a new breed is going to be huge.

 

[Paige]

I have no idea. That wasn't my argument, it was going back to the OP.

If people want to do it ethically and have the resources to do so, I have no objections. I know of a few fantastic golden/lab doodles. I would never own a poodle or a lab/golden.. but I have met a few goldendoodles I would take. There are a few in agility and they are fun dogs and are doing well.

Those who say there are too many dogs in shelters-I asked if good breeders of established breeds should stop breeding if there are lots of their breed in shelters. IMO the issue is numbers of individuals not numbers of breeds.

Exactly. I am all for the rescue/adoption route but I would never frown upon someone for buying a dog from a good breeder. I think so long as they are ethical and dedicated to it, why can't someone make a new breed? If I knew of someone going about it the right way I wouldn't hesitate to get a Miley type dog in the future if I couldn't find another in a shelter/rescue.

 

[Laurelin]

See, I have NEVER met a bad labradoodle. Honestly.

The ones we get in the shelters are sweethearts (we actually get quite a bit). the ones in the guide dog program here are obviously really well behaved.

Could be because most doodles I know are guide dogs, I don't know. I've never actually met a goldendoodle.

Now then, the small poo/designer mixes I've met have been a bit less stable. Some are sweet, it seems, but more are not. Also could be attributed to the fact that those tend to come from mills and pet shops around here.

I really hate that people are trying to make big money off these breeds, but is it not unfair to lump them all together? Some labradoodle breeders are breeding for a purpose and health testing their stock. Much different than pet store puppies or the now plethora of designer dog breeds. No, I don't agree with mixing everything just to mix it to sell, but maybe labradoodles can be a bit different depending n the breeders?

I still agree with the fact that they need a name change, though.

The one thing I notice, though, is that labradoodles tend to be HUGE. (With the exception of the labradoodle we had in the shelter the other day that was about 60 lbs). I'm talking 90 lbs +. Labs and poodles aren't that big, why are doodles so big?

 

[Zoom]

I dunno..you REALLY see this with the goldendoodles...100+lbs and NOT fat, just HUGE.

 

[Squishy22]

How many show poodles have you met, may I ask? I know three standard poodle breeders, and their dogs are amazing. They're jolly clowns, very outgoing and friendly not a mean bone in their bodies. I intend to get a poodle from one of the breeders in the future. I am very impressed with the Standard Poodle bred for the show ring, at leat here in the Midwest. Solid temperaments, great focus, wonderful obedience and agility dogs.

IMO saying that poodles aren't friendly is like saying pit bulls are vicious - it's an unfair generalization.

Exactly! A well bred poodle is not supposed to be vicious. I am sure you can find a vicious dog of ANY breed.

What I dont get and what my major problem is the difference between a poodle and a big doodle. Apparently people keep saying that the doodle was created to be a low shedding service dog, WHAT?? I am SURE a poodle could be trained to be just that.. a low shedding service dog. And I am sure all poodles are not vicious... thats like saying all pitties are vicious. So what exactly is the point of this new breed... if you can call it that. I honestly dont get it.

It still seems to me that people are bored with a regular old poodle, so they create a breed thats new and exiting to make a big buck off of it or what not.

About the millions of dogs that are in shelters. I totally see the argument about the problem being BYBs and not about adding more breeds to the list, but It definitely doesnt make it any better. I very much see the point and I do agree, but it just doesnt sit with me well to be making all these different breeds for no good reasons (in my opinion). If that makes sense anyhow, lol.

 

[Squishy22]

I do want to say that I am just using the standard poodle as an example. If someone truly does not like the standard poodle and they want more options, there are other low shedding breeds also. And I am sure any of them could be trained as good service dogs.

 

[Dekka]

They tried many breeds, they didn't work. The straight poodle didn't work and they tried hard to get them as guide dogs. You would think the would be great, smart, good size etc etc they aren't.

But while I have met many really nice poodles through agility, and many nice labs and goldens too, NONE of them would I personally want to live with. I have met 4 golden doodles and one labradoodle I would love to take home. Just my experience. No one is asking people who don't like doodles to buy one. For me it has nothing to do with the coat.

I guess my issue is we can eliminate so many breeds by your logic then as extenous. The carin terrier, the fox terrier, the border terrier etc etc are redundant as we have JRTs they are all small terriers-why breed the different types?

WOW look at all the retrievers. Yes there are some differences, but over all very similar dogs. We could get down to a couple of breeds!

I could go on....

And still no one who is against doodles being ethically bred has answered my question.

 

[Laurelin]

They tried many breeds, they didn't work. The straight poodle didn't work and they tried hard to get them as guide dogs. You would think the would be great, smart, good size etc etc they aren't.

But while I have met many really nice poodles through agility, and many nice labs and goldens too, NONE of them would I personally want to live with. I have met 4 golden doodles and one labradoodle I would love to take home. Just my experience. No one is asking people who don't like doodles to buy one. For me it has nothing to do with the coat.

I guess my issue is we can eliminate so many breeds by your logic then as extenous. The carin terrier, the fox terrier, the border terrier etc etc are redundant as we have JRTs they are all small terriers-why breed the different types?

WOW look at all the retrievers. Yes there are some differences, but over all very similar dogs. We could get down to a couple of breeds!

I could go on....

And still no one who is against doodles being ethically bred has answered my question.

I always think the same thing.

So lets chose one toy spaniel- those are pretty similar. No need for anything other than a BC since they're the best sheep herders... we can keep something else for cattle, I suppose. Lets narrow down the bully breeds- those can be REALLY similar. So which stays? the Am Staff or the Pit Bull Terrier? Maybe Staffie bull.... Lots of retrievers that are very similar and as you've mentioned many similar terriers. I'll be different and say the border terrier gets to stay the jack russell gets to go...

This leads us to what is an 'acceptable' purpose? Companionship isn't considered enough by many people, yet I enjoy my companion dogs. One breed of many that descended from the Continental Toy Spaniel. How is the Papillon different than other CTS descendants? To many people, I'm sure not very, but I happen to really like my dogs and much prefer them over the other CTS breeds.

I got to talk to a couple Shiloh breeders on another forum when there was a debate about that breed there. Honestly, the Shiloh is being bred for the companion dog type niche from what they say. (Most weren't too fond with the breed founder, keep in mind- lots of politics in the breed). The idea is a more docile, larger, longer coated german shepherd type dog.

Sure, the family wanting a Shiloh could get another dog, but what if they prefer this one? none of the breeders I talked to even remotely suggested that the breed was going to outdo german shepherds work-wise. That's not what it was bred for.

The way I see Labradoodles (still haven't seen a good goldendoodle breeder as I've mentioned before...) is that they are trying to cater to people wanting a poodle coated type dog that is more retriever in personality. You can say other breeds are like that all you want but truthfully there really isn't anything exactly like that in existence.

How different must a breed be from another before its deemed ethical?

There are plenty of breeds that were created after others already existed to do a similar job. Toys for example all are companions... but they are vastly different especially to a toy owner. As Dekka mentioned, the terriers all had similar jobs. some were developed later to do something possibly marginally 'better' or perhaps the breed founders just preferred something slightly different than the existing breeds. But that's okay since it was done long ago? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Doodles do seem to have a different temperament than a poodle from the ones I met. Whether or not poodles make good guides dogs, I don't know. I also know many a guide dog program that crosses labs and goldens. They take their best dogs and match them that way without taking breed really into account. Is that ethical?

Honestly I've almost gotten to the point where I don't really mind what you breed so long as you do it right. Companionship, showing, working, whatever... Health test, make sure you have a GOAL (this is really important to regulate your breeding program), keep temperament in mind, be HONEST about your breedings and what pups are (if they're mutts acknowledge that they aren't hypoallergenic wonderdogs, if you're breeding for the ring acknowledge that you're not breeding for work, etc...) and make sure you have homes for your puppies and sell them on appropriate contracts. Also, I'd really like to see more breeders doing more with their dogs.

I'm thinking there are bigger fish to fry other than if it's okay to make a new breed now provided the breeders are doing so with health tested and temperament tested stock. The more I'm around rescue, the more I realize this.