My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

[DanL]

Great post adojrts!

How many people who posted negatively in this and other breeding threads have dogs that have problems as the result of genetic issues? Seizures, breathing, fearful temperaments, lack of ability to do what the dog was bred to do? Did all of these people take the same care and consideration in researching their breeder and apply this knowledge they have to selecting their own dog that they expect the original poster here to do with his pups?

 

[FoxyWench]

adojrt's wanted to adress:
the dog in question was a schutzhund staffordshire bull terrier who also hunted pigs, she showed absolutly no sighns of pain afterwards, and would play just as hard, no sighns of limping, NOTHING...(and this is very common in the bully breeds)
her owner was a holistic vet and hunter (not for sport, he actually wouldnt eat anything he hadnt grown or him and his dogs hadnt hunted themselves) she was 4 when he bred her, he kept 2 puppies, and didnt breed her again after that. (she was spayed after the puppies were weaned)
at 6 yrs old she wasnt moving as fast as she used to be or playing as hard after the days work was done...he examined her and her hips were creaky, so he took her in for xrays where he got REAMED for not noticing her hips deteriourating...in truth however she had shown no sighns, ive met this dog many times and nothing, she thought nothing of taking down a hog then upping for the next. but the xrays showed that she should have been barely able to walk at that point...
but not even that slowed her down she was bouncing all over the place, playing with the techs, no sighns of pain...had her person not been so intune with her normal activity levels he woudlnt have had any clue, and the vet who xrayed her took his awefull words back when he saw her bouncing and playing, he even had him come to the farm where the vet watched her run with her pups ect.
unfortunatly a week later she just couldnt move at all, it wasnt untill that day that she started to show she was in pain...they tried painkillers but she was put to sleep a few days later.

as a side note, he never bred either of her 2 pups...

 

[dobesgalore]

I see profit as a huge concern also based on the fact the op stated directly he IS in it for profit...
But again my 2 biggest issues are the complete avoidence of vet care and the utter disreguard that any dog who isn't raised his way are frou frou "unhealthy" animals. It's one thing for a breed to not be your type of dog... But from what the op has said thus far my frou frou toy dog who lives indoors and is 2 1/2 yrs old has a better catch rate than his amazing "naturally raised" survival of the fittest dogs...

Mabel it's the obvious language barrier but thus far the op has stated a snake bite is NOT an emergency (then in reacent post changed it) nor is an after whelp check up, who cares about testing hips, the dog can run and "work" it MUST be healthy...and an absolute no interfernce policy on his dogs whelping, which in an ideal world is great, but n reality one breached pup could kill them all, one retained puppy and there goes your female...
This far everything the op has posted leads that this bitch on her first litter whelped alon outside unsupervised with none so much as an after whel check up and clean out. To me, THAT is an unessicary risk plain and simple. Sure it's "natural" for a bitch to breach and die during a whelp, doesn't mean you should just Let it happen if the option to save her and the litter is there...
These are Man Made breeds, no matter how old the breed is...by selectivly breeding you are removing it from natures hands...
Nature has already proven when left to breed "natural" you end up with a generic medium sized breed usually black and tan with some very specific features...

Personally I couldn't have dogs the way hunting kennels and the likes do... But I don't nessicarily dislike them... In this case however... It's beyond that...
I also don't agree with breeding overdone characterisicts that effect health like that... I feel the bulldog and pug and other short nosed breeds should be taken back a few steps...the shortend noses whent from short to dangerously squished
the highly roaches backs of the AKC shepards is not how the breed was meant to be...hippo bullies, Danes bred entierly for height ect... I absolutly disagree with all these extreems...and personally don't show at akc confirmation purpously...I'll attend the odd local show for fun ect but find the attitudes of many show folks discusting... I do however feel that at least basic genetic testing and the back up of the vets assistance should it be needed should be bare minimums of care for breeding.

Mabe that comes from working with dogs so stotic that they will run jump hunt ect with displaysia, elbow and knee issues ect. I've sen dogs work with conditions that would kill a man...but they don't show the pain they do their jobs,whatever that is and it's not untll to late you find out the dogs hips are going... "Ooopps the dog was working well, she looked and acted healthy she wa th best catch dog ever so we bred her...how were we to know she had hip displasia?"

This was all well said! This is everything I have been thinking about on this subject, I just haven't been able to say it so well. My feelings exactly! Great post!

 

[Zoom]

Sighthounds aren't exactly known for being stoic though...the hallmark of the bully breeds is to keep going through pain and adversity. It's somewhat of a flawed comparison. I know what you're getting at, but still.

And he said he does hips because everyone demands hip clearances these days.

 

[ufimych]

They play now and walk outside. Playing consists of mouthing muzzles and heads of each other. This is not about profit. This is about healthy, intelligent and capable dogs. I imported them from the country, where vet assistance was not accessible and became available only recently. If the dog got sick, it has to choices, survive, or die. The toughest survived and this is what a good serviceable dog ought to be. The dog is good if it is healthy and only a healthy dog can perform physically in field. The hunter is on horseback, the dirt is frozen, or covered with snow and the dogs keep up and catch hares and foxes. When I am choosing a puppy here, in USA, I am looking for a good breeder with healthy dogs. His dogs must be healthy not because of intensive veterinary check ups and supports, but rather because they are genetically healthy and do not need vets, except may be vaccination or in accidental serious injuries. Unfortunately, it became a part of our culture to funnel money on manufactured foods, supplements and all kind of unnecessary materials and devices for dogs. Look in those catalogs. Ninety five percent of what is advertised and sold are things, which dogs and their owners do not need. A good pen, a doghouse, a lead and a collar are needed. A bawl with water and good raw meat and meat products for food. A regular physical activity is absolutely a must even for a toy breed dog. If your dog is genetically sound, you do not need vets. This is how dogs lived for thousands of years and they were healthy like dogs (this is a proverb in other, then USA, countries). If your dog is genetically deficient, do not breed it, may be even euthanize it and find a good one. We need go back to nature, if we want to enjoy dog.

 

[Dekka]

If your dog is genetically sound, you do not need vets.

Ok anyone who knows me I am all for minimal vetting.. I don't run off to the vets easily.

However I can't express how much I disagree with this statement.

Kaiden is a very sound dog. He shattered a canine running into a cement step (going after an insect..) Now it has NOTHING to do with genetics. So should I have not taken him to the vet? Left him in pain, potentially letting him get a major infection that could kill him?

I can understand wanting to let dogs live as close to nature as possible (though ground beef is not close to nature.. its pretty much as far off as feeding kibble.. but that is another post) But I don't agree with letting dogs live or die due to injuries just cause its 'natural'. I hope you practise what you preach and never go to doctors yourself.

I find it a bit insulting that you assume you know how all dogs want to live. Yes some love the outdoor life. Just like some people do. But not ALL dogs do. Kaiden would love to live outside most of the time. (he does love to come in and sleep on the couch.. then wants back out) He loves nothing more than to go frogging, or just lying on the lawn and watching the world go by. Dekka on the other hand wants to be with me where ever I am and has a nack for finding the cushiest, most plush place to sleep possible. Not all dogs are the same.

 

[puppydog]

Again, you have said that you feed kibble. So which is it? A raw diet or kibble?

 

[freedomwolf]

I believe he is giving them raw but the kibble to make up for what the beef cannot provide. I could be wrong. I also could be wrong in that he i getting them used to both incase someone that does buy can easily put them on the one that they prefer to feed there dog since not every one goes for kibble or raw. As I said i could be wrong.

 

[Lilavati]

The whelping outside thing doesn't bother me. My father has bred working beagles for almost 30 years. The bitches are moved to a special kennel for whelping, and have and raise their litters there. We've never lost a bitch. On the other hand, Dad also gets up 3-4 times a night to check on her when she's getting ready to whelp and the vet is on speed dial. There are heat lamps to keep her warm, and clean bedding. But I don't see why you would need to bring the dog into the house to whelp unless there is a serious problem. In fact, for dogs that have always lived outdoors, its more comfortable.

 

[puppydog]

I believe he is giving them raw but the kibble to make up for what the beef cannot provide. I could be wrong. I also could be wrong in that he i getting them used to both incase someone that does buy can easily put them on the one that they prefer to feed there dog since not every one goes for kibble or raw. As I said i could be wrong.

Well, if that is the case, his dogs are not eating naturally. My two that are fed 90% raw (fed kibble when it is more convenient) are eating more naturally then his. And mine are "frou frou" dogs.

 

[ufimych]

My happy puppies:
They show temperament already. Some females will be after their mother, very dominant. They play, but a t a certain point, some of them explode and start fighting.

This is a very democratic forum and everyone can make his suggestions and judgements. In evolutionary sense, dogs derived from wolf only recently and many of them can revert to feral life. If climate is mild enough, dogs do not need our assistance to survive. This is why I give some choices to my dogs each time, if I can. Adel choose the doghouse without bedding. This is understandable, because her recent wild ancestors made dens in holes in the dirt, clay or sand on the floor, no rags. Who heard about wild canids making a sort of bird nest with feathers and all kind of bedding? Some of the posters are lawyers, homemakers, specialists in arts and humanities and have a very remote from natural sciences background. Ignorance in zoology and biology does not stop them from being judgemental. I thank all for positive attention to my posts.

 

[puppydog]

You would get a lot more if you were not such an edited by mod.

 

[DanL]

You would get a lot more if you were not such an edit by modQUOTE]
It goes both ways!

 

[-bogart-]

aww the pups are adorable , i would seriously want one if my life was not so complicated!


and DanL ~ bravo~ is all i will say .

ufimych , i think the problem here really is a language and cultural barrier. ( I hope it is at least )

i am looking forward to seeing them grow!

 

[Dekka]

My happy puppies:
They show temperament already. Some females will be after their mother, very dominant. They play, but a t a certain point, some of them explode and start fighting.

This is a very democratic forum and everyone can make his suggestions and judgements. In evolutionary sense, dogs derived from wolf only recently and many of them can revert to feral life. If climate is mild enough, dogs do not need our assistance to survive. This is why I give some choices to my dogs each time, if I can. Adel choose the doghouse without bedding. This is understandable, because her recent wild ancestors made dens in holes in the dirt, clay or sand on the floor, no rags. Who heard about wild canids making a sort of bird nest with feathers and all kind of bedding? Some of the posters are lawyers, homemakers, specialists in arts and humanities and have a very remote from natural sciences background. Ignorance in zoology and biology does not stop them from being judgemental. I thank all for positive attention to my posts.

can you back this up? Nothing I have ever found says it was recent.. and there is new evidence to point that dogs did NOT evolve/develop from wolves...

 

[smkie]

National Geographic did a piece on the possiblity of dingos that made alot of sense.

 

[puppydog]

You would get a lot more if you were not such an edit by modQUOTE]
It goes both ways!

Oh yes? When last did I insult people because they cared for the health of their animals or make rediculous statements that are no where based on fact and then refuse to answer any questioning about it?

 

[DanL]

Oh yes? When last did I insult people because they cared for the health of their animals or make rediculous statements that are no where based on fact and then refuse to answer any questioning about it?

Obviously you are not going to insult people who have the same beliefs you do, but you are insulting the op and others who might agree with the op by lowering yourself to name calling. The name calling does nothing but bring you to a lower level than the op. If you don't like what he's saying, hit the back button! You don't have to read the thread. You keep referring to your "fru fru" dogs or whatever- it really seems to bug you that he said that, but the fact is, they are what they are. So what if you feed them 90% raw. I feed my pug 100% raw and he's a freaking wimp! He enjoys a good life, and he's not the kind of dog who could live anywhere but indoors. An unfortunate side effect of long term breeding for looks and traits that are totally unnatural. But he is what he is, just like yours are, and we'll take care of him because we committed to it when we brought him home 8 years ago.

 

[Criosphynx]

I just read this whole thread....I think this is an interesting breeding method and find it fasinating.

Your basically trying to replicate natural selection in a long term program.


I look forward to updates on your pups. Iam a huge saluki fan.

 

[Renee750il]

but the fact is, they are what they are. So what if you feed them 90% raw. I feed my pug 100% raw and he's a freaking wimp! He enjoys a good life, and he's not the kind of dog who could live anywhere but indoors. An unfortunate side effect of long term breeding for looks and traits that are totally unnatural. But he is what he is, just like yours are, and we'll take care of him because we committed to it when we brought him home 8 years ago.

Really, most dogs fall into this broad category in some form or fashion. Little Tallulah - the APBT - is tough as nails, but she couldn't survive on her own in the wild without human protection. It's not her nature; as a matter of fact, her nature, the one we've bred for in the APBT, would get her killed pretty quickly in the wild.

The fox gazed at the little prince, for a very long time.
“Please! Tame me!†he said.
“I want to very much,†the little prince replied. “But I have not much time. I have friends to discover, and a great many things to understand.â€
“One only understands the things that one tames,†said the fox. “Men have no more time to understand anything. They buy things all ready made at the shops. But there is no shop anywhere where one can buy vriendship, and so men have no friends any more. If you want a friend, tame me…â€
“Goodbye,†said the fox. “And now here is my very simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.â€
“What is invisible is essential to the eye,†the little prince repeated, so that he would be sure to remember.
“It is the time you have wasted for your rose that makes your rose so important.â€
“It is the time I have wasted for my rose–†said the little prince, so that he would be sure to remember.
“Men have forgotten this truth,†said the fox. “But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.†You are responsible for your rose…â€
“I am responsible for my rose,†the little prince repeated, so that he would be sure to remember.
from The Little Prince

(1943)

Bimmer and Kharma are a different matter entirely. They COULD survive and thrive in the wild, but Bimmer is part wild and Kharma, well, she is working Fila. She's dualistic -- the wild creature and the sybarite. She is ferociously dedicated to her place on the 18" latex mattress . . . but equally immersed in the pleasures of rolling in cowsh1t and stalking her own dinner.

Bimmer and Kharma and I -- well, we are responsible for each other, and all three of us for Tallulah.

I wonder if it is that way for other people with dogs of similar backgrounds/natures?