just plain messy

[Dekka]

I agree that health testing and such is important, but if I breed a dog without it, does that make me any less guilty? Intentional or not, the result is the same. Just because someone says "this is important to me" and then goes out and does otherwise, doesn't give me a lot of faith that it's truly what they believe.

You might be surprised at how many otherwise good breeder have had oopses of the non health tested kind. If you intentionally breed with out health tests that to me is a very different thing than if you have an oops. The same way manslaughter is not the same as murder. The end result is the same, but intentions matter.

 

[Laurelin]

I think this speaks to the fact that we should be LESS harsh, across the board. Not necessarily that anyone should compromise their strong feelings or ethics, but be civil and give others the courtesy of explaining their side without coming after them, guns a-blazin', tar, feathers and noose ready.

I agree completely. It's something I've been trying to do better about lately. I remember coming to chaz with very very strong opinions about breeding where you were either 'reputable' or a 'byb'. Nowadays I don't even use the term byb if I can help it. I hate it, it does no good and has no real meaning...

And... I've lost myself rambling. I guess the bottom line is if people are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to old timers then perhaps we should spend more time trying to be understanding towards the newbies. I have seen so many people run of and slaughtered and I'm willing to bet many of them were very good people and caring dog owners.

 

[crazy_paws]

The ad claims that they are being bred with health as a priority, not true.

That many of her pups go on to be service and therapy animals, NOT true.

I see false claims there.

I can see not wanting to call out a friend, I guess. I tend to hold my friends to the same standards that I hold myself to. People are often judged by the company that they keep.

 

[Dekka]

There is a difference between saying health is a priority (which is a little dubious, but ok) to out right claiming your dogs are show dogs, and just as good a prospects as those you could get from a show/sport breeder.

 

[Renee750il]

Part of the reason MMorlino and VanDominus got it harder and heavier than Foxy is because they were HERE and responding -- as is right.

Foxy wasn't, and so there wasn't as much to fan the flames.

 

[Laurelin]

There is a difference between saying health is a priority (which is a little dubious, but ok) to out right claiming your dogs are show dogs, and just as good a prospects as those you could get from a show/sport breeder.

Foxy did claim her dogs were show dogs though didn't she? At least Jasper and yet he is not registered? See to me this is another example of the disparity in the way we treat people. People were all over MMorlino looking things up in the OFA and AKC (I believe) to prove her wrong.

Part of the reason MMorlino and VanDominus got it harder and heavier than Foxy is because they were HERE and responding -- as is right.

As much as I disagree with MMorlino (don't remember VanDomnus) I do really respect that she stayed and answered questions in spite of the way she was treated.

 

[AGonzalez]

Exactly! At least Von Dominus and Mmorlino had enough guts to stick to their convictions, instead of running away when nobody told them "good job" - hell, even Von Dominus admitted to lying and didn't get the whole "it takes a big person to admit they were wrong" like Foxy did...but no, there's no favoritism there at all.

The only difference I see in these cases is that Foxy was a mod here, was respected, and is therefore getting a benefit of the doubt, whereas the others did not.

Foxy claimed Ruby is a CKC champion with health testing. No record of health testing and her "championship" won in a less than reputable registry...ok so that can't be proved. [deleted for inaccuracy, sorry folks!]

I'd call that intentional deception, so does she really care about the things she helped others preach about? I highly doubt that. Oh and $800 for a puppy? Yeah that just screams "I'm only looking for a good home for my oops litter"...

ETA: Jaspers AKC was found, somehow my search came up blank because his registered name was spelled incorrectly on his owners website.
However:


There is no available title progression summary information for this dog. At the time this summary was generated there may be awards for this dog not yet recorded by the AKC through the date(s) given above.
Events Not Processed

The following events were not recorded through the dates given on Summary of Title Progression for each competition type.

The events not processed started only as far back as June 4th, 2010.

BUT

when jasper came along i did a few akc shows and he placed very well , but quite honestly i DONT like confo AKC, ive met too many plain nasty people, judges have been wonderfull, but i personally cant surround myself with the people i was running into at the akc events so i started doing some fun days with jasper too with the local ckc group

Man it's getting DEEP in here.

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

I can see not wanting to call out a friend, I guess. I tend to hold my friends to the same standards that I hold myself to. People are often judged by the company that they keep.

Just want to point out FoxyWench and I were/are not friends. Not that I didn't like her. I just didn't have a friendship outside of Chaz with her.

So im not just defending her because she is my friend. I just see a member constantly bad mouthed who is no longer here to defend herself. Whether she chooses too or not. Its her choice, her business.

 

[corgipower]

Mmorlino was completely demolished on this forum time and time again for her breeding practices. I see these two instances as very similar. No health testing, young parent, etc. I don't even have a problem that people are okay with this breeding, really. I DO have a problem that people seem to pick and choose when it's okay. It is either okay or it's not. It just doesn't sit well with me that people defend one member but condemn another for the same thing.

I can't speak for others, but to me the difference is that Mmorlino's breedings were intentional.

Whether or not this one was an oops, only Foxy can answer. I don't condemn breeding practices of an oops...I might or might not condemn management to prevent oopses depending on the person's track record.

I sit here with an intact male and an intact female. I've had intact dogs of both genders for nine years without any accidental breedings. But it could happen. And I would very much hope that I wouldn't get condemned if it did. I try to give the same respect to others.

The ad claims that they are being bred with health as a priority, not true.

That many of her pups go on to be service and therapy animals, NOT true.

I see false claims there.

I can see not wanting to call out a friend, I guess. I tend to hold my friends to the same standards that I hold myself to. People are often judged by the company that they keep.

You keep claiming these ads are out there.
AFAIK you're the only one who has seen them.
Can you link us to them or provide a screen shot?

but an oops litter owner with a breeder website

Where is her website?

 

[AGonzalez]

CP, I don't know if it's ok to post her site so I PM'ed it to you.

 

[sparks19]

Yes I'd like to see this supposed ad and this website

Also I really don't have much to say when it comes to breeding becasue I just don't know enough about it and if it weren't for accidental litters or "bad breeders" we wouldn't have beezer or Belle and we never would have had Teddy.

 

[Laurelin]

Yes I'd like to see this supposed ad and this website

Also I really don't have much to say when it comes to breeding becasue I just don't know enough about it and if it weren't for accidental litters or "bad breeders" we wouldn't have beezer or Belle and we never would have had Teddy.

I got Nikki from a pretty bad breeder at 5 weeks old. That dog was the love of my childhood and my best friend. She was still not bred well. I never regretted getting her but I still don't condone the way she was bred. I don't think anyone is insinuating the dogs themselves have anything wrong with them.

 

[crazy_paws]

Anyone wanting the ad, they can pm me and I'll email you the attachment. I don't think that it would be welcomed to post it or a screenshot here, but a mod can advise if that's appropriate.

I do know that Dekka and Pam111 have seen it.

I think breeders should be scrutinized. I don't think that this is a member constantly getting bad-mouthed. If she felt her actions were defensible, then she can come and defend them. Her choice.

A good breeder can take their puppies back if necessary. Can she do that? Or only if her parent's allow?

Sparks, did you pay hundreds of dollars for Beezer and Belle? Did you get them from a private breeder? I think you mentioned they were rescues. I think that's laudable. I don't see a comparision to poor breeding though.

ETA: No one is saying the puppies are defective or "less". River came from a rescue where he was turned in by a byb-breeder. Difference is, I DID NOT line the byb's pockets to encourage future breedings.

 

[Pam111]

Yes, I have seen 2 ads

 

[Jules]

I don't see why it would be inappropriate to post a screen shot? She posted it on the Internet- it is not bringing drama from another forum here, but it does help to piece together little bits and pieces of a much, much bigger picture.

There is so much conflicting information all over the place- I can't say that I think the breeding was unintentional. But it might have been... who knows?

You know, there WAS a turn-around in attitude towards VomDom BECAUSE he fessed up. Well, he's not an active member anymore, so who knows what he is up to now I wish Foxy would come back and explain herself... IMO, if you want my support, you need to let me know what's up. Nobody is perfect, that's beside the point. Confessing to mistakes and moving on, THAT is what makes us grow and I can respect that.

 

[ACooper]

You know, there WAS a turn-around in attitude towards VomDom BECAUSE he fessed up. Well, he's not an active member anymore, so who knows what he is up to now I wish Foxy would come back and explain herself... IMO, if you want my support, you need to let me know what's up. Nobody is perfect, that's beside the point. Confessing to mistakes and moving on, THAT is what makes us grow and I can respect that.

Absolutely agreed.

Vom bred his bitch, not health tested, not titled, not tried in any venue, Annie not ONCE, but TWICE before she was 2 years old to his unregistered, not health tested, untitled male and lied about it to us, on his site, and to the puppy buyers of BOTH litters! But he manned up, came back, fessed up, and said he really wanted to do things right from now on........every person commended him for his courage to face up and confess. EVERY PERSON if I recall correctly. Now whether he has actually carried through, who knows? But he acted sincere at the time.

Mmorlino is a different case than Vom IMO. She's quite happy doing what she does, sees nothing wrong with it, and will probably continue to do so for a long time to come. I think she is good to her dogs and loves them very much regardless of her breeding practices. I don't agree with her practices, but I've also never jumped her for them..........at least she's honest if you can say nothing else for her.

Foxy did indeed leave a bunch of unanswered questions, she also left a lot of hurt feelings. She still hasn't decided to come back and answer for any of them, but even if she DID, would anyone believe her words? IDK. I don't know what's up with her, I do have her on facebook and see updates for the pups...........I still care about her and worry/wonder. That doesn't mean I will defend her actions, especially because I still don't really KNOW what those actions were.

One thing I will NOT do is begrudge Pam the happiness from a puppy who's already in this world and needing a home. Pam has been through a quite a bad time this last year or so, a hell that most of us (God willing) will never have to go through...........I will NOT put a damper on her happiness in any way, shape or form no matter what my opinion is of Foxy's actions. Period.

 

[AGonzalez]

ACoop...VonDom's dog TY is registered...Dominus Tiberius - he was pink papered at the time and awaiting AKC registration - he is AKC registered now. When he said he'd turned in the paperwork to AKC, he wasn't lying.

Not trying to derail, but I talk to VonDom and no, not everyone gave him a pat on the back for that after the fact. He just never really came back because he's busy with real life and the military. *shrug*

I really don't think anyone wants to take Pam's happiness away from her. Just the fact of the matter is that a lot of us are surprised that knowing what we know that we'd buy a dog from a breeder without ethics most of us believe in. Or further yet, **** all over other people for doing the same thing and defending one or two...That's my pet peeve with the whole thing. A lot of the "BYB" types that come on here catch pure hell from the beginning, from the same people that have defending THIS action.

You tell me, if I lied about Lacey, said she had been shown, had her hips and elbows checked and all this and "by the way, my neighbors GSD hopped the fence and bred her" (yes my neighbor does have a male GSD lol) - and you find out that she has neither been shown or had hip or elbow xrays (that's next month, she just turned 2 btw) are you really going to believe it was an accident?
How do you think everyone would react? With, oh you lied but it's ok because you're being honest now and it takes a big person to admit that? Or would it be "OMG I can't believe you did that?" Ok, now I'm going to tell you that I'm selling puppies with a contract and if you want breeding rights you're going to pay more? Sure, I want my oops puppies being bred because that's what my ethics are like...no I don't think so.

Ya know, I'll put it out there, if it's against something in the forum policy, which I don't think so because we've linked other breeders sites before, here's the site, tell me what you think after reading that?

Seven Seas - Home

 

[ACooper]

ACoop...VonDom's dog TY is registered...Dominus Tiberius - he was pink papered at the time and awaiting AKC registration - he is AKC registered now. When he said he'd turned in the paperwork to AKC, he wasn't lying.

Not trying to derail, but I talk to VonDom

I think the breeding a GSD bitch TWICE before she was 2 years old, along with the no health testing and lieing about it all probably got to most of us more than not having an AKC registration, LOL (which the AKC reg means very little to me personally!)

I hope he is still on the right trail to doing things "right" as he wanted to! I think he also loves his dogs very much and was very proud of them both. I wish he'd come back and post again...........

 

[Laurelin]

Is it bad I don't even remember this VonDom person....?

 

[ACooper]

Is it bad I don't even remember this VonDom person....?

This is the thread where it all sort of fell to pieces for him Laur.......I don't know if you were in that thread or not! LOL, I know I was, I posted some 'evidence' and I also commended him on his courage for manning up.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t85565/