I have a question for everyone to ponder....
- Thread starter dr2little
- Start date
If you hit your dog, its beating. If you yank them on a prong collar that is abuse... if you do none of these things thats great. But really I read part of your trainer's 'book' it was very insulting, and misinformed. I really don't think it is the chaz members who's minds are closed.
When galileo proposed the earth was round, everyone told him he was wrong. People abused him, verbally heckled him. Made personal comments about his beliefs, sexual status, and political opinion. Your trainer has done all those things to us..in Print here, and in print in his 'book'.
History again shall provide those who listen to what is, not what people think 'should be' the last laugh.
When galileo proposed the earth was round, everyone told him he was wrong. People abused him, verbally heckled him. Made personal comments about his beliefs, sexual status, and political opinion. Your trainer has done all those things to us..in Print here, and in print in his 'book'.
History again shall provide those who listen to what is, not what people think 'should be' the last laugh.
So in your mind, that's all there is??? That's really a shame. I'm not a sheep by any stretch but I will always continue to learn. My students teach me things everyday.. but their dogs teach me more.
I used to be somewhat similar to you in my thinking. I had a Giant Schnauzer that I "used" for Schutz. I thought of him as my friend second and as my prize, working dog first...I thought I knew it all. I was extremely gentle compared to the man you follow but I would give up EVERY dime I have to have that dog back and to train him all over again with what I know now. I think of him every day and my heart is so heavy that I can't even explain it.
I wish that I had a way to explain to those of you who think that it's OK to physically punish your dogs for training sake that it's not only NOT necessary, it leaves the dog confused and the trainer empty in the future....if he/she continues to learn.
If you do decided to go outside of your current training circles and see what's out there, you may actually change the way you think...even better, you'll likely change the way that you train.
I used to be somewhat similar to you in my thinking. I had a Giant Schnauzer that I "used" for Schutz. I thought of him as my friend second and as my prize, working dog first...I thought I knew it all. I was extremely gentle compared to the man you follow but I would give up EVERY dime I have to have that dog back and to train him all over again with what I know now. I think of him every day and my heart is so heavy that I can't even explain it.
I wish that I had a way to explain to those of you who think that it's OK to physically punish your dogs for training sake that it's not only NOT necessary, it leaves the dog confused and the trainer empty in the future....if he/she continues to learn.
If you do decided to go outside of your current training circles and see what's out there, you may actually change the way you think...even better, you'll likely change the way that you train.
Dr2little, you can't go back and change the knowledge you had then. You did the best you could using what you thought was the right method. I know what you mean though, when I was growing up I got a training book and was trying to train our little Scottie by smacking her for incorrect behavior. I think I was twelve. I still remember how sick it made me feel, especially the evening when she ran away from me and wouldn't come to me because she was afraid. I loved her so much and was just trying to follow the instructions.
I worry about Purdue because he is so young, and if he damages his dog, it will stay with him forever.
I worry about Purdue because he is so young, and if he damages his dog, it will stay with him forever.
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drmom777 I'm sure he has a copyright on his book so it's probably better if you don't post it without permission.
I also want to restate the point that doc made earlier and that is that positive reinforcement is NOT all about treats and bribes. Not even close. There are plenty of dogs that aren't food motivated and don't have any interest in treats they can still be trained with positive reinforcement. There are also trainers/owners who don't want to use treats and they still successfully train without treats. No problems.
Personally, I think that people who use negative reinforcement just don't know better and are either not creative enough to motivate a dog to learn or are too lazy to learn newer methods.
I also want to restate the point that doc made earlier and that is that positive reinforcement is NOT all about treats and bribes. Not even close. There are plenty of dogs that aren't food motivated and don't have any interest in treats they can still be trained with positive reinforcement. There are also trainers/owners who don't want to use treats and they still successfully train without treats. No problems.
Personally, I think that people who use negative reinforcement just don't know better and are either not creative enough to motivate a dog to learn or are too lazy to learn newer methods.
Well, there you have it. Abuse. There is no other way to read it.
First of all, these people do NOT understand dogs and their behavior, what drives them because they're animals who once lived in the wild. They have motivations and drives which they needed for survival. Their value system and culture is not the same as ours. They are ammoral and do NOT know "right from wrong" in our moral sense and certaintly not based on our standards of values. They have a different culture! They do NOT do things to please their owner unless it causes them to survive. They do it because they are hardwired to live with humans and receive their livlihood from humans. The myth of "love thy owner" needs to be put to rest once and for all. This is why all the abuse happens. People get so bent out of shape when their dog doesn't do something to "please" them. And then they take it out on the dog. The dog HASN'T EVEN BEEN GIVEN A REASON to comply! It's that morality thing again. "Well, he should because I'm his master and I'm the boss." Dogs are animals.
There are ways to teach dogs to comply and which are ways which they can understand and relate to. These ways are proven and demonstrated all over the world in all kinds of venues and in all kinds of animals which are much, much less bidable than dogs.
When these dogs are being half drown, hit with a stick and all the rest of the atrocities, they are not learning ONE G.D. thing!!!! Except to fear and distrust humans and to be absolutely bewildered beyond belief. This is ABUSE. I don't care what you think a dog has to go through in police work. Even if this were the only way to train (WHICH IT MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT) then we should not have police dogs. Use guns to stop the bad guys and leave the poor dogs out of it. No creature deserves to be abused like that for ANY reason. Period!!!!!
First of all, these people do NOT understand dogs and their behavior, what drives them because they're animals who once lived in the wild. They have motivations and drives which they needed for survival. Their value system and culture is not the same as ours. They are ammoral and do NOT know "right from wrong" in our moral sense and certaintly not based on our standards of values. They have a different culture! They do NOT do things to please their owner unless it causes them to survive. They do it because they are hardwired to live with humans and receive their livlihood from humans. The myth of "love thy owner" needs to be put to rest once and for all. This is why all the abuse happens. People get so bent out of shape when their dog doesn't do something to "please" them. And then they take it out on the dog. The dog HASN'T EVEN BEEN GIVEN A REASON to comply! It's that morality thing again. "Well, he should because I'm his master and I'm the boss." Dogs are animals.
There are ways to teach dogs to comply and which are ways which they can understand and relate to. These ways are proven and demonstrated all over the world in all kinds of venues and in all kinds of animals which are much, much less bidable than dogs.
When these dogs are being half drown, hit with a stick and all the rest of the atrocities, they are not learning ONE G.D. thing!!!! Except to fear and distrust humans and to be absolutely bewildered beyond belief. This is ABUSE. I don't care what you think a dog has to go through in police work. Even if this were the only way to train (WHICH IT MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT) then we should not have police dogs. Use guns to stop the bad guys and leave the poor dogs out of it. No creature deserves to be abused like that for ANY reason. Period!!!!!
Dr2Little, maybe I can come up with a reason why people would choose physical corrections.
When I got Spanky as a puppy, he was very difficult for me to manage. He nipped constantly, jumped, grabbed skin and clothing as we walked by. He was a little terror. We were not enjoying life with the little bugger at all. We had a positive re-enforcement trainer come out for one session to show us a little about how to use the clicker. We didn't get him to slow down at all.
We took him to positive re-enforcement training at PetSmart. We were still miserable.
I joined 2 more classes. Both used leash corrections, one recommended a prong and the other a choke collar. Spanky would do any command, but he was still a monster at home. Both of these trainers suggested leaving him on-leash at all times and give corrections anytime he was doing the behavior we didn't like. This was the worst point for me. He was still a monster, and I was punishing him all the time. I was miserable.
To top it off, these trainers were telling me this young puppy was being dominant, and we were going to have a terrible time on our hands if we didn't get rid of this behavior right away. I was pretty freaked out. I was picturing a dominant, aggressive dog that we had, none-the-less, gotten attached to, and not being able to live with him
I finally got the recommendation of a behaviorist. I had his name all along, but he had a waiting list, and I was impatient because Spanky was driving us nuts!! He told us he generally came for 6 visits at our house. All training was off-leash (so I knew I would no longer have to be following him around and yanking his collar, yay). He came in the first day and sat in my living room and talked to me and ignored Spanky. Spanky was so excited, he was wanting to grab his pants, etc. Very soon after he got there, I guess he quieted down for a second, and click/treat.
It was amazing the transformation that Spanky had with this trainer. The trainer said he would occasionally have one that he would have to startle with noise or something that he said many positive re-enforcement trainers wouldn't agree with, but he seldom needed that.
All of this to say, I did resort to physical corrections when the other wasn't working, but the physical corrections made it worse. I believe I wasn't trained the proper technique initially for positive re-enforcement. But that is why I tried it. The trainers who used physical corrections had me convinced that I was going to have an aggressive dog if I didn't handle it better.
This trainer who finally actually helped me, convinced me on the first visit that my dog couldn't be farther from being aggressive or dominant. He said most of his work is with people who are having major problems, and he's worked with alot of aggressive dogs. Spanky wasn't one of them. That might have been the biggest help of all. Once I finally saw Spanky as a puppy and not as a potential full-grown problem, I was able to settle down
and give the positive training a chance.
By the way, this trainer also works with horses, and he uses clicker training with them, too.
When I got Spanky as a puppy, he was very difficult for me to manage. He nipped constantly, jumped, grabbed skin and clothing as we walked by. He was a little terror. We were not enjoying life with the little bugger at all. We had a positive re-enforcement trainer come out for one session to show us a little about how to use the clicker. We didn't get him to slow down at all.
We took him to positive re-enforcement training at PetSmart. We were still miserable.
I joined 2 more classes. Both used leash corrections, one recommended a prong and the other a choke collar. Spanky would do any command, but he was still a monster at home. Both of these trainers suggested leaving him on-leash at all times and give corrections anytime he was doing the behavior we didn't like. This was the worst point for me. He was still a monster, and I was punishing him all the time. I was miserable.
To top it off, these trainers were telling me this young puppy was being dominant, and we were going to have a terrible time on our hands if we didn't get rid of this behavior right away. I was pretty freaked out. I was picturing a dominant, aggressive dog that we had, none-the-less, gotten attached to, and not being able to live with him
I finally got the recommendation of a behaviorist. I had his name all along, but he had a waiting list, and I was impatient because Spanky was driving us nuts!! He told us he generally came for 6 visits at our house. All training was off-leash (so I knew I would no longer have to be following him around and yanking his collar, yay). He came in the first day and sat in my living room and talked to me and ignored Spanky. Spanky was so excited, he was wanting to grab his pants, etc. Very soon after he got there, I guess he quieted down for a second, and click/treat.
It was amazing the transformation that Spanky had with this trainer. The trainer said he would occasionally have one that he would have to startle with noise or something that he said many positive re-enforcement trainers wouldn't agree with, but he seldom needed that.
All of this to say, I did resort to physical corrections when the other wasn't working, but the physical corrections made it worse. I believe I wasn't trained the proper technique initially for positive re-enforcement. But that is why I tried it. The trainers who used physical corrections had me convinced that I was going to have an aggressive dog if I didn't handle it better.
This trainer who finally actually helped me, convinced me on the first visit that my dog couldn't be farther from being aggressive or dominant. He said most of his work is with people who are having major problems, and he's worked with alot of aggressive dogs. Spanky wasn't one of them. That might have been the biggest help of all. Once I finally saw Spanky as a puppy and not as a potential full-grown problem, I was able to settle down
and give the positive training a chance.
By the way, this trainer also works with horses, and he uses clicker training with them, too.
Heavyjay I'd take baby steps with your dog. First getting him used to the car while it's parked and off. In and out, in and out. Lots of rewards (praise, treats... whatever). Then just short trips so he doesn't get nervous or sick. He may be afraid of the car because it makes him get sick so maybe ask your vet about giving him something before the trip to prevent that.
Ya, I'd like to read this book too. Does it come in paperback? I'd would like to read about Koehler.
My story with training is no treats just hands and vocals. They (Sara and Granduer) both need to know distant correction once this is established life is good. I live wearing a LifeGuard whistle. I never leave home without it. lol
I feel all dogs somewhere along the line wether it be house breaking, human aggression, dog aggression, beggin' at the table, growling at your best friend, about to kill the cat ... has expierenced a firm hand. It's the tone you use with this firm hand, so things don't progress. The degree of firmness depends on the owner, trainer or master what have you, at any given point a dog can test you, and some do, some alot. Certain breeds are known for it. I prefer those breeds. Because I know they need to work to be happy, and work I have. Some would call it exercise or going for a walk. I call it life.
Once the dog is happy it will do anything and go anywhere, literally.
That's what I think of it all.
My story with training is no treats just hands and vocals. They (Sara and Granduer) both need to know distant correction once this is established life is good. I live wearing a LifeGuard whistle. I never leave home without it. lol
I feel all dogs somewhere along the line wether it be house breaking, human aggression, dog aggression, beggin' at the table, growling at your best friend, about to kill the cat ... has expierenced a firm hand. It's the tone you use with this firm hand, so things don't progress. The degree of firmness depends on the owner, trainer or master what have you, at any given point a dog can test you, and some do, some alot. Certain breeds are known for it. I prefer those breeds. Because I know they need to work to be happy, and work I have. Some would call it exercise or going for a walk. I call it life.
Once the dog is happy it will do anything and go anywhere, literally.
That's what I think of it all.
I'm not sure if you're referring to your own dogs but neither my own dogs nor any of my clients dogs require or do they know what a firm hand is about unless they have a previous history.
As for certain breeds needing a firm hand...train a few severely DA/HA Tosas, just for an example and then we'll talk. It would be a death sentance for me or anyone to use a firm hand on one of these dogs with an already well established issue. I'm currently working with a male and female, both horribly DA...and worse, HA and both have made enormous progress. The fact that I'm here to type this is strictly because I know how to train void of physical punishment. These dogs wouldn't stand a chance with Mr. R....that I'm certain of, or should I say Mr. R would need more than his silly stave. Mind you, he looks to be a 200+ pound man, I'm several bucks short of 100.
I just don't understand what this 'some breeds need...blah, blah, blah.. More often than not, the breeds quoted in that fool hardy statement are the very breeds that fair the worst with physical punishment.
As for certain breeds needing a firm hand...train a few severely DA/HA Tosas, just for an example and then we'll talk. It would be a death sentance for me or anyone to use a firm hand on one of these dogs with an already well established issue. I'm currently working with a male and female, both horribly DA...and worse, HA and both have made enormous progress. The fact that I'm here to type this is strictly because I know how to train void of physical punishment. These dogs wouldn't stand a chance with Mr. R....that I'm certain of, or should I say Mr. R would need more than his silly stave. Mind you, he looks to be a 200+ pound man, I'm several bucks short of 100.
I just don't understand what this 'some breeds need...blah, blah, blah.. More often than not, the breeds quoted in that fool hardy statement are the very breeds that fair the worst with physical punishment.