I have a question for everyone to ponder....
- Thread starter dr2little
- Start date
The issue is NOT arriving at the same goals in behavior and obedience with either PR or Richling's methods. The issue is WHICH ONE WILL HOLD UP UNDER EXTREME STRESS? And I mean, EXTREME STRESS? The dogs Richling trains, both pets and working dogs, can handle STRESS FAR BETTER AS TO NOT EVEN COMPARE, with the dogs who are treat trained. I am a police K-9 officer and I have been monitoring all this banter. You all have never been in a dark alley with several "bad guys" who are intent on harming both you and your dog. Nor have your dogs had to have such high levels of obedience as to work on crowded subway cars day in, day out. I have heard of Richling before in police circles and his training is legendary. I am even surprised that he bothered at all to talk to any of you. Oh well...be content in your own opinions. But I say again: THE ISSUE IS WHICH OF THESE METHODS WILL HOLD UP BETTER UNDER THE MOST STRESSFUL OF WORKING SITUATIONS AND WHICH ONE WILL GIVE THE DOG A MASTER OR A HUMAN PEZ-DISPENSER? That is a Richling quote by the way...And Dr2little: He does not give a crap about what you call "science." He cares about one thing: THE DOG AND ITS PERFORMANCE. And boy......his dog worships HIM and not because he is handing out treats either.
The way I see it, in the Extreme Stress situations your talking about, i believe a stable dog wiht nothign to fear of their handler will work a lot better and a lot calmer then one that has been taught to fear its handler.
I also believe that in any situation, the dog should see you as a teamate or a partner they want to work with, not a master they want to work for.
I also believe that in any situation, the dog should see you as a teamate or a partner they want to work with, not a master they want to work for.
Heavy Jay.... Dogs work for humans for a reason. Either they fear consequence s (which may or may not be P+, they could be R-) or they hope for payment. Now it has been found that animals will work most for random rewards for contingent behavior (once they know that behavior) That is why slot machines are so popular, this even works on humans.
Bribes are where people get into trouble. Dogs aren't dumb. And dogs trained by bribes will look to see if you have a cookie before they obey. Some behaviors you can reward very easily. I had a dog teach herself to down..
Sizzle is as over the top/crazy/drivey a dog as you could hope (or not hope lol) to get. She had real issues with self control, so I was working on an automatic down. When ever she wanted anything she had to down. Now all my dogs are fed in crates. Most sleep in crates at night. I would get their dinners ready and she would go jump in her crate and do a down stay. I would go and feed her. I would have fed her anyway lol. But to her she was being rewarded for the down. If she is in the x pen and I come to get her..she downs etc etc. She now has the most beautiful down all over the place, and I never really give her cookies for it. It was all pretty much life rewards.
Bribes are where people get into trouble. Dogs aren't dumb. And dogs trained by bribes will look to see if you have a cookie before they obey. Some behaviors you can reward very easily. I had a dog teach herself to down..
Sizzle is as over the top/crazy/drivey a dog as you could hope (or not hope lol) to get. She had real issues with self control, so I was working on an automatic down. When ever she wanted anything she had to down. Now all my dogs are fed in crates. Most sleep in crates at night. I would get their dinners ready and she would go jump in her crate and do a down stay. I would go and feed her. I would have fed her anyway lol. But to her she was being rewarded for the down. If she is in the x pen and I come to get her..she downs etc etc. She now has the most beautiful down all over the place, and I never really give her cookies for it. It was all pretty much life rewards.
This is true, the military has train animals (not just dogs) with positive reinforcment. Back in WW2 the people doing the experimental training found that they could get the animals to be 98% reliable. And believed the other 2 percent was due, not to the failure of the method, but the failure of the trainers ability.
I again repeat my previous comment (can't remember if it's this thread or a different one) that Richling and his type/followers wouldn't believe it when they saw a +R dog doing the exact same things. Again, you would be amazed as to what can be accomplished by a +R dog under extreme duress.
Take herding for example. It's really hard to train the finer nuances of excellent herding through PP. The dog just refuses to work as well because it becomes afraid to think for itself. These are also dogs that have countless heads of cattle/sheep/whatever charging them, trying to stomp on them, kicking them, etc. Yet they keep at it, for hours upon hours, until the job is done.
And calling yourself a "master" is the ultimate sign that you view dog training through your own ego. I don't want to master my dog, I want to be the leader with a devoted companion. But what do I know. I'm just a civvie.
Take herding for example. It's really hard to train the finer nuances of excellent herding through PP. The dog just refuses to work as well because it becomes afraid to think for itself. These are also dogs that have countless heads of cattle/sheep/whatever charging them, trying to stomp on them, kicking them, etc. Yet they keep at it, for hours upon hours, until the job is done.
And calling yourself a "master" is the ultimate sign that you view dog training through your own ego. I don't want to master my dog, I want to be the leader with a devoted companion. But what do I know. I'm just a civvie.
Richling and the rest of them will be left back in a plume of dust as time moves forward and the others evolve.
Steve White
As a police officer, Steve White was trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State. With K-9 assignments occupying much of his 25 years in law enforcement, he handled and trained patrol and narcotics dogs for military, county, and city law enforcement agencies. Accredited as a Master Trainer in 1993 by the Washington State Police Canine Association. Steve is an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement, and has instructed at police K-9 seminars across the U.S.. He has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.
The force based methods Steve was originally taught troubled him. Through the years Steve came to realize there was better way to train. Marine mammal trainers and behaviorists taught him how to achieve better performance using positive reinforcement. Better yet, they taught him that the principles applied across species lines. They work as well for cats, birds, and livestock as they do for dogs and dolphins.
Steve has taught obedience classes at parks, community centers, and boarding kennels. His articles have appeared in police K-9 and dog training publications in the U.S. and Canada. He has been a guest presenter at Karen Pryor's and Gary Wilkes's "Don't Shoot the Dog Seminars" and has taught with Karen at her clicker workshops. Steve has taught classes at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers national conferences. He was also invited by the US Defense Research Projects Agency as a participant in its Plume Tracing Symposium.
As owner-operator of the private business Professional Training Services, he specializes in teaching behavior management through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning, as well as tracking and scent work. He also provides consultation and training to K-9 units on administrative and legal issues.
Steve White
As a police officer, Steve White was trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State. With K-9 assignments occupying much of his 25 years in law enforcement, he handled and trained patrol and narcotics dogs for military, county, and city law enforcement agencies. Accredited as a Master Trainer in 1993 by the Washington State Police Canine Association. Steve is an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement, and has instructed at police K-9 seminars across the U.S.. He has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.
The force based methods Steve was originally taught troubled him. Through the years Steve came to realize there was better way to train. Marine mammal trainers and behaviorists taught him how to achieve better performance using positive reinforcement. Better yet, they taught him that the principles applied across species lines. They work as well for cats, birds, and livestock as they do for dogs and dolphins.
Steve has taught obedience classes at parks, community centers, and boarding kennels. His articles have appeared in police K-9 and dog training publications in the U.S. and Canada. He has been a guest presenter at Karen Pryor's and Gary Wilkes's "Don't Shoot the Dog Seminars" and has taught with Karen at her clicker workshops. Steve has taught classes at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers national conferences. He was also invited by the US Defense Research Projects Agency as a participant in its Plume Tracing Symposium.
As owner-operator of the private business Professional Training Services, he specializes in teaching behavior management through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning, as well as tracking and scent work. He also provides consultation and training to K-9 units on administrative and legal issues.
My mums ex used to hit our dogs, he used to hit Buster for practically nothing. He had no patience and if the dogs were in his way they got kicked for it.
Did the dogs love him? YES. did they follow him around and do as they were told for him? YES. But i will NEVER condone anyone treatign my dog that way.
I count what he did as abuse and i know that they feared, but i won't deny the dogs behaved for him.
so yes, dogs can "worship" a trainer out of fear
Did the dogs love him? YES. did they follow him around and do as they were told for him? YES. But i will NEVER condone anyone treatign my dog that way.
I count what he did as abuse and i know that they feared, but i won't deny the dogs behaved for him.
so yes, dogs can "worship" a trainer out of fear
Mr Richling emailed me his book yesterday, just as promised. I have read most of it, and the people on this site who are now claiming that Richling doesn't actually advocate hitting dogs are mistaken. Page after page he recommends the liberal use of the stave. He also recommends Koehler's method for preventing digging by half drowning a dog in a hole, while thrashing him with the stave.
In fact, the whole book closely resembles Koehler both in content and tone, including his deriding of other training methods and descriptions of people who don't approve of his methods as "wincing". His definition of "inhumane" is also lifted directly from Koehler.
He recommends sound thrashings with the stave for such transgressions as begging at table, ( while saying that his dog is allowed to beg at table) and attempting to hump other dogs, which he thinks is disgusting. I am not exaggerating, it's all in the book.
In fact, the whole book closely resembles Koehler both in content and tone, including his deriding of other training methods and descriptions of people who don't approve of his methods as "wincing". His definition of "inhumane" is also lifted directly from Koehler.
He recommends sound thrashings with the stave for such transgressions as begging at table, ( while saying that his dog is allowed to beg at table) and attempting to hump other dogs, which he thinks is disgusting. I am not exaggerating, it's all in the book.