I have a question for everyone to ponder....

[dr2little]

i'm a richling k9 student and i don't "beat" my dog with a stick. you all are taking this all out of context. have any of you seen what we do? what it looks like? it's a freaking swat on the butt. not all dogs need that type of correction anyway. my doberman has never even felt a stave before. you all are making it sound as if we are dragging our dogs around beating them full force until bloody. it's simply not true. it seems as if someone has misinformed you all.

Sorry, been there.....never going back. I have been training professionally for many, many years and I know exactly what he does in the name of training. There is no need for his silly little stick and no justifiable reason to hit a dog PERIOD!

It is for a lack of other skills and an over abundance of false Bravado that he hangs onto the only way that he knows.

For you, I believe that if you saw what is being achieved everyday without the use of +P, you too would understand why his methods are fading into history and I truely believe that most people, you included, would rather train without the physical stuff given the proof.

Are you in police work? If not, why are you training in this way?

 

[Purdue#1]

Join Date: Jul 2006

Well over a year

 

[heavyjay]

Ahhh, but you CAN have your cake and eat it too John. The biggest misconception about reward based training is that the rewards are used as bribery and must be present in order for compliance to occur. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Clicker training for example, when done correctly clickers are only used for about 10 to 20 clicks for each new behavior, then they are faded. Treats are given at a predictable rate in order to condition a response and then are faded as well.

By class 6 (graduation) even in a puppy class, treats are ONLY used as a variable reward for every 6th to 10th behavior...only the most recent behaviors learned in a chain.

So, you see....treats are VERY temporary. It's only when they are used incorrectly that people feel they are ineffective.

I'm very interested. What can I read?

 

[Dekka]

Heavyjay..are you hoping just not to use treats? What about life rewards and toys. I know some clients want to use as few treats as possible (not sure why..but as they are not strictly nessisary, its not an issue)

 

[heavyjay]

I completely agree Zoom. The only caveat to that would be to say that +R done incorrectly is less dangerous or likely to cause residual negative effects than poorly timed +P....though I no longer buy into the notion that there is such a thing as a well timed +P

I'm new to some of these abbreviations. +P is physical correction, +R is pos reinforcement?

 

[zanadu]

not police work but my dog is a working security dog and it is very important that my dog listens to his commands under all weather elements, gun fire, sirens, other dogs, cars, people, etc.

 

[dr2little]

Hi Purdue,
Baloo has only been in the car 3 or 4 times and never more than 7-10 minutes at a clip. We went to the Vet last Thursday who is only 3 miles away. Both there and back, I got him out of the car just in time. He threw up even though he hadn't eaten in 8 hours.

Is this true car sickness or does the car even have to be in motion for him to show signs of stress?

Have you tried to pair the car with something positive (while not in motion) for short periods?
It sounds like a very typical response particularly for a BC. They, as I'm sure you know, are very sensitive and aware of their environment. Being Canine Einsteins, they are also fairly easy to desensitize.

If you were to pair sitting in the car while it's not in motion with something he really values, for several short periods for a few days and then slowly add short (1/2 a block) trips to that gradually, you'd likely be able to desensitize him in about 1 week.

If it is true car sickness, you can try to kennel him (cover with a blanket) and add a grounder on the back of your vehicle.

 

[Dekka]

I'm new to some of these abbreviations. +P is physical correction, +R is pos reinforcement?

Yes
There is -R (negative reinforcement) which is removing something unpleasant (such as an ear pinch used i n training a force retrieve. and -P which is negative punishment which means taking away something the dog likes. Such as crating, or removing the stimulus from the dog.

 

[Purdue#1]

Hi Purdue,
Baloo has only been in the car 3 or 4 times and never more than 7-10 minutes at a clip. We went to the Vet last Thursday who is only 3 miles away. Both there and back, I got him out of the car just in time. He threw up even though he hadn't eaten in 8 hours.

Now when we got mickey she was in a crate in the bed of my uncle's truck and had threw up in it, but when we put her in the back of our car she went to sleep and we were on narrow back roads. it could be a number of things like where the dog is in the car. Our dogs never threw up in the car. For some reason our dogs loved to ride.

 

[heavyjay]

Why not treats? I love giving my dogs treats. I'm like the Jewish mama...eat, eat, eat. LOL. Seriously, would you want to work for free? It's payment for a job well done. And if you fear that your dog will only work for treats every time, fear not. There are ways to fix it so they're not dependent on a steady supply of them forever. My dogs are obedient and I don't still give treats every time. I do variably though to keep them at top performance. What happens is that once it becomes habit and they've had a strong history of reinforcement, the behavior itself becomes a predictor of good things and thus becomes a good thing to do....from the dog's point of view.

Well, Doc....no brainer, like Brattina said.

I hear ya Doberluv. My wife is Polish. There is no such thing as "a little something to eat." She cooks for an army even though there are only 3 of us. I understand what you're saying about the treats and working for free. I already make him sit before he gets his regular meals or goes outside. I just like to give him treats with no strings once in a while.

 

[dr2little]

I'm very interested. What can I read?

The quickest (and free ) way to start is by going to clickersolutions.com but the "who is your favorite trainer" thread has some fantastic books as well.

Anything recent by any of those authors would be great. Jean Donaldson is one of my favs. and she also comes from a more compulsive background. She too has chosen +R not only because of the science behind it(which is staggering) but also because of her own results in the field. She's been on both sides, as have I, and has an amazing way of sharing what she's learned.

 

[Zoom]

Well over a year

Posts: 363

Not even enough to make for one post a day. That does not qualify as an established member. That's the "occasional poster" mark.

 

[BostonBanker]

If you were given the choice of using physical correction or no physical correction to achieve a behavior, both being equal in compliance...which would you choose?

I will not use any physical corrections with my dog. I have yet to find a behavior I can't teach her using +R and the occasional NRM. If I did come to a roadblock where it seemed like the only choice would be to hit her with a stick (or spank her with my hand, or smack her butt with a twig, or whatever), I'd think long and hard about how important that behavior really is to me AND TO HER. The dog didn't have a choice in who she lives with and how to lead her life; I selected her and she's stuck coming along for the ride. I owe it to her to make the journey as pleasant as possible. And in return, she's make mine downright joyful.

 

[Dekka]

LOL Dr you beat me to it..I was going to suggest clickersolutions.com..also the email list is great for asking questions. There are some big internationally respected trainers and behaviouralists on that list. Warning, its a very high volume list!

 

[Aussie Red]

i'm a richling k9 student and i don't "beat" my dog with a stick. you all are taking this all out of context. have any of you seen what we do? what it looks like? it's a freaking swat on the butt. not all dogs need that type of correction anyway. my doberman has never even felt a stave before. you all are making it sound as if we are dragging our dogs around beating them full force until bloody. it's simply not true. it seems as if someone has misinformed you all.

Let me ask you something here. If you were to get a swat from someone you love every time you zigged when you should have zagged or did not clearly hear what you were to do how would you react ?
I am now retraining a dog ( Kahlua ) who was never shown affection and ducked when you reached to pet her. Why ? Most likely from physical training.
I have used the positive training method and given treats and hugs to her and I am willing to put both my ACDs up against any physically man handled trained dog any day of the week and I can tell you I have no doubts that my two will do every bit as good as the ones getting pushed around and swatted and there is one thing you will see in my that I doubt you will see in the physically man handled ones and that is LOVE, and eagerness to make me happy.
I got myself into trouble sometime back because I watched a guy train his dog with a stick a rather big one at that and was hitting the dog when said dog did not comply with the command. I got an equal sized stick and swatted him a couple of times on the head and butt. He did not like it either but he had something the poor dog did not ........COPS

 

[zanadu]

i too would not like to see a dog hit with a stick.
when i train my dog i am always petting and praising!

 

[Doberluv]

I will not use any physical corrections with my dog. I have yet to find a behavior I can't teach her using +R and the occasional NRM. If I did come to a roadblock where it seemed like the only choice would be to hit her with a stick (or spank her with my hand, or smack her butt with a twig, or whatever), I'd think long and hard about how important that behavior really is to me AND TO HER. The dog didn't have a choice in who she lives with and how to lead her life; I selected her and she's stuck coming along for the ride. I owe it to her to make the journey as pleasant as possible. And in return, she's make mine downright joyful.

BB....I love your posts....you rock girl.

Heavyjay.... Curiosity is a true mark of intelligence. I commend you for researching and learning.

 

[Purdue#1]

Not even enough to make for one post a day. That does not qualify as an established member. That's the "occasional poster" mark.

Because i don't have time. i have FFA, dog training, mascot practice, school,etc.

 

[heavyjay]

Is this true car sickness or does the car even have to be in motion for him to show signs of stress?

Have you tried to pair the car with something positive (while not in motion) for short periods?
It sounds like a very typical response particularly for a BC. They, as I'm sure you know, are very sensitive and aware of their environment. Being Canine Einsteins, they are also fairly easy to desensitize.

If you were to pair sitting in the car while it's not in motion with something he really values, for several short periods for a few days and then slowly add short (1/2 a block) trips to that gradually, you'd likely be able to desensitize him in about 1 week.

If it is true car sickness, you can try to kennel him (cover with a blanket) and add a grounder on the back of your vehicle.

I think it's fear, Doc. He starts drooling uncontrollably as soon as his butt hits the seat. I started trying to de-sensitize him last Friday. I've been taking him to the car several times a day and just leaning against it, patting the doors and quarter panels with my hand. He's at the point now where he'll at least approach it and sniff the doors and tires. Next week I'll try to get him into it and see if he'll sit there and eat his breakfast while I have my coffee. If that works out I'll try to graduate to driving to the other end of the parking lot and back.

 

[heavyjay]

The quickest (and free ) way to start is by going to clickersolutions.com but the "who is your favorite trainer" thread has some fantastic books as well.

Anything recent by any of those authors would be great. Jean Donaldson is one of my favs. and she also comes from a more compulsive background. She too has chosen +R not only because of the science behind it(which is staggering) but also because of her own results in the field. She's been on both sides, as have I, and has an amazing way of sharing what she's learned.

I'll start reading.