I have a question for everyone to ponder....

[dr2little]

If you were given the choice of using physical correction or no physical correction to achieve a behavior, both being equal in compliance...which would you choose?

I only ask this because of all of the debate going on about why some people choose, and I do mean CHOOSE, to physically correct, when there is more than ample proof that it is not necessary.

I am honestly confused. I really want to know what I'm missing in the reasoning here.

There are so many K-9 unit trainers, behaviorists and civilian dog trainers SUCCESSFULLY training RELIABLE working dogs without the use of a stave, choke chain yanks, or any other harsh aversive. This is not a dream folks, it's reality. Why would anyone actually CHOOSE to travel BACK in time?

 

[squirtsmom]

I would never ever abuse my dog to get a behavior, when positive reenforcement works so well. I couldn't hit my dog.

 

[heavyjay]

If I had my druthers, I'd prefer to do it without corrections or treats. I guess I want my cake and eat it too.

John

ETA: I haven't even done any training yet except to try to get him to stop pulling on the leash by turning around and going the other way when he pulls. My biggest concern right now is trying to get him over his morbid fear of the car.

 

[Brattina88]

no brainer... no physical correction.

 

[Zoom]

I do a lot of training while out in a large (like 30+ on a regular basis, quite often up to 70 at once) group of dogs who are all off-leash and collar-less. No treats allowed for obvious reasons and the dogs can just up and walk away whenever, because they are there for playing. I keep absolute order and all that is needed to break up a beginning scuffle or for one dog to quit humping another is an "Oi!" These are all half-trained dogs that are used to getting their way most of the time at home too, only one of them is mine and he's out there doing half the work for me, :lol-sign:

How many +P people would be able to do that without their tools? I've seen first hand what happens...the dogs all get very on edge and that's when real fights break out.

 

[verderben]

If you were given the choice of using physical correction or no physical correction to achieve a behavior, both being equal in compliance...which would you choose?

I only ask this because of all of the debate going on about why some people choose, and I do mean CHOOSE, to physically correct, when there is more than ample proof that it is not necessary.

I am honestly confused. I really want to know what I'm missing in the reasoning here.

There are so many K-9 unit trainers, behaviorists and civilian dog trainers SUCCESSFULLY training RELIABLE working dogs without the use of a stave, choke chain yanks, or any other harsh aversive. This is not a dream folks, it's reality. Why would anyone actually CHOOSE to travel BACK in time?

I would never beat my dog with a stick into submission. I like a prong collar for loose leash walking and heel. I tried positive methods to teach them to my dogs and it just wasnt working. 5 minutes on the prong and they all reliably walk right whether on the prong or on a flat collar. I use a variety of things to teach my dogs, depends on the command. I used positive only for come, stay, sit, down, stand, ect. So I guess I would choose both.

 

[squirtsmom]

I have a big brother that I really looked up to as a kid. Until I saw him stomp kick his lab, and then use a piece of firewood to beat his horse. After that, I still loved him, but didn't much want to be around him. Because of that, I am very anti abuse towards animals, children, whatever. With Baby, the b ig lug, we use only positive reenforcement, and praise to elicit the type of behavior we want. It takes patience, as anything would. No way I could hit her or do anything that would hurt her. I love her.

 

[dr2little]

If I had my druthers, I'd prefer to do it without corrections or treats. I guess I want my cake and eat it too.

John

Ahhh, but you CAN have your cake and eat it too John. The biggest misconception about reward based training is that the rewards are used as bribery and must be present in order for compliance to occur. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Clicker training for example, when done correctly clickers are only used for about 10 to 20 clicks for each new behavior, then they are faded. Treats are given at a predictable rate in order to condition a response and then are faded as well.

By class 6 (graduation) even in a puppy class, treats are ONLY used as a variable reward for every 6th to 10th behavior...only the most recent behaviors learned in a chain.

So, you see....treats are VERY temporary. It's only when they are used incorrectly that people feel they are ineffective.

 

[Doberluv]

If I had my druthers, I'd prefer to do it without corrections or treats. I guess I want my cake and eat it too.

Why not treats? I love giving my dogs treats. I'm like the Jewish mama...eat, eat, eat. LOL. Seriously, would you want to work for free? It's payment for a job well done. And if you fear that your dog will only work for treats every time, fear not. There are ways to fix it so they're not dependent on a steady supply of them forever. My dogs are obedient and I don't still give treats every time. I do variably though to keep them at top performance. What happens is that once it becomes habit and they've had a strong history of reinforcement, the behavior itself becomes a predictor of good things and thus becomes a good thing to do....from the dog's point of view.

Well, Doc....no brainer, like Brattina said.

 

[Zoom]

I will concede ONE thing...one itty bitty thing. Performed incorrectly (or half-heartedly) neither training method will work.

reason for dr2's edit - Oops I zigged when I meant to zag....edited when I meant to quote... sorry Zoomers

 

[Doberluv]

Sorry Doc...missed your post which is, as usual better detail and more correct.

 

[Purdue#1]

My biggest concern right now is trying to get him over his morbid fear of the car.

My other dog mickey didn't like getting in the car. we picked her up and put her in the back. she went to sleep on the ride. every time we went to go somewhere she would go hide. we went and picked her up and put her in the car. We didn't make a big fuss. now when we get ready to go she leaps in the car along with sly.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Treats all the way. No physical corrections here- ever.

 

[mrose_s]

i think a lot of it is "tradition" and people not wanting to accept change.

I understand why some people do not wish to train with food rewards so as not to teach the dog to work for food, but to teach your dog to work for you. But food works well with Buster so I use that a lot fo the time because it gets him swiched on.

To be completley honest, untill a couple of years ago I didn't know about PR training. In all my reseacrh of cruelty to animals it never even occured to me that physicial correctional training might not be the only answer.
I used to get very frustrted very easily when training, most sessions would end with me yelling then storming off in a huff.
As soon as I foudn out about PR i swiched and Buster results have been brilliant.

I also got my head around "if your dog knows what you want you to do, if it respects you it will do it" which means if your dog DOES respect you and is not doing it, your not explaining it properly. And if your dog does know what you want it to do but doesn't respect you, why not?

My family is still catching onto the idea really. My sister trains Mac using mainly PR but she can get frustrated easily. She was watching me train Buster to weave the other day and he kept mising the middle pole, so i'd just bring him around and start him again, i did it maoinly 5 times before he got it and my sister said "see, i don't know how you have that patience with him" The simple reason, I have to be patient if i want him to keep having fun and wanting to learn.

Because the other dogs are pretty much used to getting a smack when they are naughty (by smack, i mean like a tap, just to clarify, not a whollop or anything) but Buster never gets touched unless its good, there is 1 thing I will tap him about (and i honestly mean a tap, that and a stern glare and a "NO") and it is when he's picking fights/chasing the other animals that he lives with.

I have no reason to ever want to change from just Positive Reinforecment Training, it has done wonders for Busters training and our relationship.

 

[dr2little]

I will concede ONE thing...one itty bitty thing. Performed incorrectly (or half-heartedly) neither training method will work.

I completely agree Zoom. The only caveat to that would be to say that +R done incorrectly is less dangerous or likely to cause residual negative effects than poorly timed +P....though I no longer buy into the notion that there is such a thing as a well timed +P

 

[drmom777]

I would go for the positive reinforcement every time.

 

[zanadu]

i'm a richling k9 student and i don't "beat" my dog with a stick. you all are taking this all out of context. have any of you seen what we do? what it looks like? it's a freaking swat on the butt. not all dogs need that type of correction anyway. my doberman has never even felt a stave before. you all are making it sound as if we are dragging our dogs around beating them full force until bloody. it's simply not true. it seems as if someone has misinformed you all.

 

[Emmalee]

I would choose no physical correction. I would never beat a dog with a stick. I don't believe that does any good. Dogs like to please. Gentle correction always.

 

[Dekka]

I love clicker training. I am even now doing with clients young horses. The difference there has been phenominal!

I have yet to have a client who's dog it doesn't work for. The problem is people's timing. This is my big reason I don't teach with punishments, if your timing is off with a click/reward, you get a slightly confused but happy dog. If your timing is off with punishment..well now you have a slightly confused scared dog.

I don't see punishing a dog for your training errors anyway. If the dog understands what you want, has been prepared properly, they will perform. Anyone remember the pics I posted of Dekka retrieving the hot dog wieners? She did that in front of a large audience, loose with other dogs around (and she is very dog reactive) She did it 5 times in a row with no reward, no punishment. I had never asked her to retrieve food before (and she is a glutton and loves hot dog wieners) But she knew how to retrieve, and knew she was not to, mouth, chew, etc what she was brining back.

That is one heck of a distraction! So if you can easily get a food driven dog to bring you a hotdog in its mouth, unharmed without punishment, and without prior training, I don't know how you can say positive doesn't work.

 

[heavyjay]

My other dog mickey didn't like getting in the car. we picked her up and put her in the back. she went to sleep on the ride. every time we went to go somewhere she would go hide. we went and picked her up and put her in the car. We didn't make a big fuss. now when we get ready to go she leaps in the car along with sly.

Hi Purdue,
Baloo has only been in the car 3 or 4 times and never more than 7-10 minutes at a clip. We went to the Vet last Thursday who is only 3 miles away. Both there and back, I got him out of the car just in time. He threw up even though he hadn't eaten in 8 hours.