Drive, biting, lack of control, balance
- Thread starter Aleron
- Start date
For me it's pretty simple. There is a world of difference between nipping, young dogs grabbing at clothing and dogs actually really biting their owner. The example I gave of the Mal puppy that latched onto someone's face and would not let go - to me that is not normal or desirable behavior in a 14 week old of any breed. Puppy nipping or biting someone's face in excitement? Sure that happens with puppies a lot. But biting down to the point where his little jaws had to be forced open? Not so good IMO. We had a young mixed breed puppy (maybe 12 weeks or so) in 4H once that seriously bit me and I didn't think that was normal or appropriate either. He bite me 10-15 or so times rapid fire and it was not play or prey drive or anything of the sort. Best I could guess, he didn't want to be restrained (I was holding him on leash on the ground and he was straining to get to his person right before the bite). FWIW he wasn't a high drive puppy in the least but if he were, I still would have thought he had an unsound temperament because of the age and situation.
Impulse control comes more naturally to some dogs than others. Sometimes it's a breed or line thing and sometimes it's an individual dog thing. I have had high drive dogs who can cap their drive very well and high drive dogs who struggle with it. Interestingly, one of the worst dogs I have had in terms of "leaking drive" is our rescue Corgi. Impulse control has been life long work with him, doesn't come naturally at all. Some of this could have been his early upbringing - he was raised with kids who he started biting when they ran. Grabbing legs/pants, not really "angry" biting but his owners were not amused and took him to the shelter at 6 months old. He sat in an overcrowded, overstimulating shelter for 2 months or so until we got him. He gets so aroused, so quickly that it can be hard to channel his drive and had to keep him in a state where he can think. He is a tugging nut but at flyball, it was sometimes hard to get him to tug because he was so over-aroused he couldn't think. He is an awesome dog in many ways and actually a pretty good house dog when things are quiet (and often pretty obnoxious when stuff is going on...). But his leaking drive is IMO a symptom of his being a rather nervy dog. Jora was every bit as driven and intense, if not more so but was a much stronger nerved dog and as such, more level headed...usually
I don't so much care about dogs grabbing clothes wanting to tug or "ouch that was my hand/leg/arm moments" during play either. I got a Belgian back as an adult who left some bruises on new people he played ball with. He'd get so overexcited, he'd grab at arms and legs...usually clothing but sometimes he'd get the skin. But he was also a pretty reasonable dog and easily learned more appropriate behavior. I don't think he had a poor temperament because of that. He wasn't biting out of aggression and he was able to think enough while aroused that he could control himself after new rules were established.
A working GSD friend of mine got a dog back from one of her litters because he "wasn't tough enough". The owner believed he wasn't tough enough, not because of how he was doing in training but because he was an approachable dog by everyone in every day life and because he never tried to "challenge" them. The dog was plenty tough enough and went on to be a very successful working police dog. Truth be told, the dogs the former owner enjoyed tended to be nervy and did not have the sort of strength of character the dog they returned did. But hey, they act all kinds of aggressive when people get to close to them and they "challenge" their owners so they must be really tough, driven dogs. Actually one of their dogs "challenged" me because I sat down near her and "challenged" someone I know because she moved her hand too quickly near the dog at a show. That is the sort of attitude the article is talking about - that things which are actually character flaws are being seen as attributes because people mistakenly think they mean the dog has tons of drive.
And RTH - loved the video!
Impulse control comes more naturally to some dogs than others. Sometimes it's a breed or line thing and sometimes it's an individual dog thing. I have had high drive dogs who can cap their drive very well and high drive dogs who struggle with it. Interestingly, one of the worst dogs I have had in terms of "leaking drive" is our rescue Corgi. Impulse control has been life long work with him, doesn't come naturally at all. Some of this could have been his early upbringing - he was raised with kids who he started biting when they ran. Grabbing legs/pants, not really "angry" biting but his owners were not amused and took him to the shelter at 6 months old. He sat in an overcrowded, overstimulating shelter for 2 months or so until we got him. He gets so aroused, so quickly that it can be hard to channel his drive and had to keep him in a state where he can think. He is a tugging nut but at flyball, it was sometimes hard to get him to tug because he was so over-aroused he couldn't think. He is an awesome dog in many ways and actually a pretty good house dog when things are quiet (and often pretty obnoxious when stuff is going on...). But his leaking drive is IMO a symptom of his being a rather nervy dog. Jora was every bit as driven and intense, if not more so but was a much stronger nerved dog and as such, more level headed...usually
I don't so much care about dogs grabbing clothes wanting to tug or "ouch that was my hand/leg/arm moments" during play either. I got a Belgian back as an adult who left some bruises on new people he played ball with. He'd get so overexcited, he'd grab at arms and legs...usually clothing but sometimes he'd get the skin. But he was also a pretty reasonable dog and easily learned more appropriate behavior. I don't think he had a poor temperament because of that. He wasn't biting out of aggression and he was able to think enough while aroused that he could control himself after new rules were established.
A working GSD friend of mine got a dog back from one of her litters because he "wasn't tough enough". The owner believed he wasn't tough enough, not because of how he was doing in training but because he was an approachable dog by everyone in every day life and because he never tried to "challenge" them. The dog was plenty tough enough and went on to be a very successful working police dog. Truth be told, the dogs the former owner enjoyed tended to be nervy and did not have the sort of strength of character the dog they returned did. But hey, they act all kinds of aggressive when people get to close to them and they "challenge" their owners so they must be really tough, driven dogs. Actually one of their dogs "challenged" me because I sat down near her and "challenged" someone I know because she moved her hand too quickly near the dog at a show. That is the sort of attitude the article is talking about - that things which are actually character flaws are being seen as attributes because people mistakenly think they mean the dog has tons of drive.
And RTH - loved the video!
I think I got lost in this thread.
Are people actually advocating redirection from high drive dogs?
Are you not correcting the **** out of these jerks and telling them where to put their teeth?
Dangerous to the handler (and I do mean K-9), unacceptable to professionals (ask B. Flinks), and quite frankly a dog that redirects is being no more indicative of its "drive" to accomplish tasks than the asshole TB colt at the track that is allowed to maul his handlers because to correct him would be to stifle his "drives".
I've handled, hung with and observed many "high" drive dogs (Malis, Dutchies, GSD), and in the hands of people who can handle their dog well; no issues, no redirection. With a poor handler, there is often resentment at being frustrated from the task (poor timing) and then I've seen redirection, but it is corrected at the next training session (a friend trains the local police k-9s and redirection towards an officer is not acceptable) and not attempted again; as soon as the dog knows the human calls the shots.
To think that a high drive animal that can accomplish the tasks laid out before it needs to be an asshole towards humans and redirect their aggression is just silly. It's as bad as thinking that dogs/horses need their testicles to get the job done; that neutering reduces the work ethic.
Blech.
Are people actually advocating redirection from high drive dogs?
Are you not correcting the **** out of these jerks and telling them where to put their teeth?
Dangerous to the handler (and I do mean K-9), unacceptable to professionals (ask B. Flinks), and quite frankly a dog that redirects is being no more indicative of its "drive" to accomplish tasks than the asshole TB colt at the track that is allowed to maul his handlers because to correct him would be to stifle his "drives".
I've handled, hung with and observed many "high" drive dogs (Malis, Dutchies, GSD), and in the hands of people who can handle their dog well; no issues, no redirection. With a poor handler, there is often resentment at being frustrated from the task (poor timing) and then I've seen redirection, but it is corrected at the next training session (a friend trains the local police k-9s and redirection towards an officer is not acceptable) and not attempted again; as soon as the dog knows the human calls the shots.
To think that a high drive animal that can accomplish the tasks laid out before it needs to be an asshole towards humans and redirect their aggression is just silly. It's as bad as thinking that dogs/horses need their testicles to get the job done; that neutering reduces the work ethic.
Blech.
Bwahahaha I'm currently surrounded by 4 snoring dogs and a boyfriend. The most dangerous being the fact I fed patellas and everyone's a bit stinky tonight.
Honestly it's hard to fault, the old saying still rings true, something about from the outside looking in you can't understand it, from the inside looking out you can't explain it. I used to think completely differently, I mean hell, a pit bull owner should never tolerate teeth on skin, right?
Boy was I schooled.
We laugh frequently about it. Dog grabs owner accidentally, owner smiles, sucks it up and moves on. Dog grabs owner on purpose, owner deals with it. Meh, I just don't see the drama in it anymore. I certainly don't presume the authority to judge a dog on it either, but really you'll never hear me encouraging more people owning mals or any high intensity breed so usually I just smile and walk away enjoying my breeds.
Honestly it's hard to fault, the old saying still rings true, something about from the outside looking in you can't understand it, from the inside looking out you can't explain it. I used to think completely differently, I mean hell, a pit bull owner should never tolerate teeth on skin, right?
Boy was I schooled.
We laugh frequently about it. Dog grabs owner accidentally, owner smiles, sucks it up and moves on. Dog grabs owner on purpose, owner deals with it. Meh, I just don't see the drama in it anymore. I certainly don't presume the authority to judge a dog on it either, but really you'll never hear me encouraging more people owning mals or any high intensity breed so usually I just smile and walk away enjoying my breeds.