Drive, biting, lack of control, balance

[Aleron]

I read it more as that a dog with a great deal of self control is not necessarily a dog that is lacking in drive in any way. That steadiness should compliment drive, not counteract it. And that believing a dog has to be borderline/out of control to be a top class performance dog is untrue and does a disservice to the dog and the trainer.

That's what I got as well.

However, it makes no sense to say that these intense dogs have "character flaws" because they have potential to redirect. That's like saying that sight hounds have "character flaws" because they might ignore your recall and take off after a rabbit.

I was just told this weekend that someone had a 14 week old Mal latch onto their face and the pup would not let go, to the point where his mouth had to be forced open. This was taken as "Oh well...that's a Mal for you". I wonder if people historically had this sort of tolerance for being really bitten by their own dogs?

I do think in any given breed there is a range of temperaments one can expect to see. we'll say there is a middlepoint can be considered ideal - a dog with proper drive for the job combined with just the right other desirable traits. Then there is a range of acceptable temperament in either direction that isn't ideal or has some temperament faults but isn't necessarily a deal breaker either. Probably no dog ever falls into the ideal in every way, there is room for improvement in all dogs. Some fall further from the ideal than others but where the line is drawn between acceptable and unacceptable often depends on the dog, breed, job and people involved. It is hard to imagine that a dog who repeatedly seriously bites their owner out of frustration or over-stimulation would be considered "ideal" or not having a temperament fault within any line of work though. I'm not saying that any dog who has such moments occasionally has a temperament fault. And I do think in some cases, it has as much to do with training/handling as it does the dog's genetic tendencies. I have seen people raise/train sport dogs in a way that encourages the dog to be almost constantly aroused, in the name of "building drive" and little to no work is done on impulse control. But I do think some dogs are very much genetically wired for such behavior too.

 

[Emily]

Have you ever owned or worked with a high-drive working line Malinois?

Mals are bred to bite, be reactive and very fast. Which means that they often act before they think and people get bit. As I and others have already said, yes you train against it, but **** happens during the process.

Biting = what a Malinois is born to do.



Do you have any experience in protection sports?


Completely OT side note...the difference between pet dog forums and working dog forums is kind of hilarious.

I'll own a Mal when I find one that meets my standards. Takes more than drive for me; nerve and character have to be there as well. There are a few lines/kennels I'd take a look at when the time is right.

Yes, I knew you would assume I just didn't know about real working dogs/bitework. I've not done bitework but I'd consider myself quite the enthusiast and very well researched.

I'm well aware of attitude most bite sport people have towards redirection. I just don't care. I don't agree. I also know enough experienced people who don't share that sentiment to not be impressed/influenced by people claiming it's all good. If you're fine with that in your dogs, by all means. Most show people are fine with some weird temperament stuff. I mean, you can say that it's normal for Shelties to terrified of new people because they're supposed to be "reserved", but I'll still call it a nerve issue.

I'm not saying that one instance of redirection makes a dog "bad" (or even multiple instances). I'm saying I won't deal with it repeatedly or as a standard part of ANY breed, and I think it's kind funny that people brag about it like it shows drive. It doesn't show drive; it shows a low threshold for reactivity. Ick.

And yes, har har, the "pet people" (which I'm faaaar from, but please, think whatever you'd like) don't know that their own dogs are supposed to bite them! Aren't they just so silly? LMAO

 

[Emily]

It is hard to imagine that a dog who repeatedly seriously bites their owner out of frustration or over-stimulation would be considered "ideal" or not having a temperament fault within any line of work though. I'm not saying that any dog who has such moments occasionally has a temperament fault. And I do think in some cases, it has as much to do with training/handling as it does the dog's genetic tendencies.

Yes. This.

 

[Linds]

Completely OT side note...the difference between pet dog forums and working dog forums is kind of hilarious.

And I've always thought it funny when sport people call what they do for ribbons work

 

[stardogs]

And I think the definition of "seriously", may be key here.

I don't consider what Aeri does serious - it's a pinch with front incisors that occurs only when highly aroused (and only when wearing longsleeves lol). It may leave a red mark, but that's it.

Would I accept a dog clamping on and not letting go in that context? No. Would I consider it a problem? Yes.

When Aeri was a puppy we dealt with pinching whenever I wore longsleeves and moved quickly. I expected that because she is bred to use her mouth and be highly motion sensitive. Did I punish it? No. Did I consider it faulty? No - she was a pup and didn't know better. Did I ignore it and figure it was a breed trait so I was stuck with it? Heck no! Tho I do admit I had fun freaking people out with the bruises I got in the process. We worked through it and will continue to do so until it's resolved.

In the mean time I'm glad I didn't freak out about it and do something that severely impacted her bite on a sleeve. I take great pleasure in the astonished "wow she bites HARD" comments new decoys utter after they take a bite from her.

 

[release the hounds]

For the most part, I don't like dogs that come back up the leash at a handler. I usually think of it as ****. BUT there are instances that i've seen it, and it was warranted IMO. Like I said, it could be from a crap dog, or a crap handler.

Myself, i've never had a problem with dogs coming back at me. Not to say I haven't been bitten plenty of times by poor timing and poor targeting at first but those quickly fad and are pretty rare for me, not a regularity. ANd those are in a totally different category anyway.

and I agree with what she was getting at about self control and drives not being mutually exclusive. You can have both, but like Aleron suggested and i've witnessed a lot; many people train it, either by design or accident.

 

[Shai]

The example she used was of a racehorse who didn't earn his owner much in stud fees because he wasn't wild enough to run despite having an ok running record. I hate to be the one to break it to her that there are ALOT of variations in what can put a stud into demand and running record is only a small piece of it. Quite a bit may have other factors like - did any of the get turn out to be decent runners? Did the horse have dozens of siblings standing at stud with similar records in the same part of the country? Was a particularly good stud available nearby? Did the owner campaign the horse correctly?

Actually you might want to reread -- I believe she was talking about the price that a young prospective racer earned at the yearling sales, and saying the amount he fetched barely covered the stud fee the owner of the broodmare paid to have him. How much value you want to give the claim that the reason for the price difference was that this cold behaved calmly while others were wild is up to you -- she does not discuss if many of the colts that fetched higher prices were from the same stud, etc. What that cold later earned in stud fees is not mentioned -- just that he did fairly well on the track.

 

[Emily]

For the most part, I don't like dogs that come back up the leash at a handler. I usually think of it as ****. BUT there are instances that i've seen it, and it was warranted IMO. Like I said, it could be from a crap dog, or a crap handler.

I agree with this.

 

[Panzerotti]

I'll own a Mal when I find one that meets my standards.

Please revisit thread when you do.

Yes, I knew you would assume I just didn't know about real working dogs/bitework. I've not done bitework but I'd consider myself quite the enthusiast and very well researched.

Reading and experience in real life are two completely different things. I also researched the breed and sports for about 8 years before I got one.

I'm well aware of attitude most bite sport people have towards redirection. I just don't care. I don't agree. I also know enough experienced people who don't share that sentiment to not be impressed/influenced by people claiming it's all good. If you're fine with that in your dogs, by all means.

I don't know where I said that it's okay for dogs to repeatedly bite their owners either. You are repeatedly ignoring my point that these dogs don't magically become well-trained with awesome self-control just by getting one with "nerve and character." The best handlers in the world still make mistakes now and then, and the best bred most stable dogs will still make a targeting error once in a while and nail your hand.

And yes, har har, the "pet people" (which I'm faaaar from, but please, think whatever you'd like) don't know that their own dogs are supposed to bite them! Aren't they just so silly? LMAO

Yes, if you think that you will someday have a high drive working line Mal and never ever get bit, yes, you are a very silly "pet person."

 

[Emily]

I don't consider what Aeri does serious - it's a pinch with front incisors that occurs only when highly aroused (and only when wearing longsleeves lol). It may leave a red mark, but that's it.

Would I accept a dog clamping on and not letting go in that context? No. Would I consider it a problem? Yes.

When Aeri was a puppy we dealt with pinching whenever I wore longsleeves and moved quickly. I expected that because she is bred to use her mouth and be highly motion sensitive. Did I punish it? No. Did I consider it faulty? No - she was a pup and didn't know better. Did I ignore it and figure it was a breed trait so I was stuck with it? Heck no! Tho I do admit I had fun freaking people out with the bruises I got in the process. We worked through it and will continue to do so until it's resolved.

Keeva did this. I actually hung her (all 4 off the ground) from the sleeve of my hoodie before she started teething. (RIP red hoodie, LOL). Now she's more interested in toys than shirts. A little over stimulation and misguided prey drive is one thing.

Full blown, redirected clamping down on a regular basis is another thing entirely to me.

 

[Panzerotti]

Originally Posted by Panzerotti
Completely OT side note...the difference between pet dog forums and working dog forums is kind of hilarious.

And I've always thought it funny when sport people call what they do for ribbons work

I made no mention of myself being a working dog handler. However, the working dog forums that I read do have many police trainers, which is work. I have also personally trained with police trainers and understand the difference between dog sports and real work.

 

[Emily]

Please revisit thread when you do.



Reading and experience in real life are two completely different things. I also researched the breed and sports for about 8 years before I got one.



I don't know where I said that it's okay for dogs to repeatedly bite their owners either. You are repeatedly ignoring my point that these dogs don't magically become well-trained with awesome self-control just by getting one with "nerve and character." The best handlers in the world still make mistakes now and then, and the best bred most stable dogs will still make a targeting error once in a while and nail your hand.



Yes, if you think that you will someday have a high drive working line Mal and never ever get bit, yes, you are a very silly "pet person."

K.

Targeting is waaaaay different than redirection. Waaaaaaay different. Targeting is often handler error IME (though not always). For god's sake, my corgi has drawn blood due to a targeting error.

You can continue putting words in my mouth. I really don't mind, but it's not really getting us anywhere...

Get bit? Of course. Get nailed multiple times due to excess reactivity, as standard fair? No thanks. If the whole breed is like that, then I'll find a better breed. Might have to do a little more digging to find the right drive, but at least I won't get chewed up in the process.

 

[release the hounds]

there are plenty of Mals that don't bite their handlers for fun, a few will be biting me tomorrow for fun instead

there are many reasons why handlers get tagged. In the working world, a lot is due to faster training and handlers that have no real bond with the dog, so no idea how to really handle and the dogs aren't always sure what is expected, training scenerios are always heightened and stuff happens. The dogs are passed along to other people and the bond isn't there early on. That's when most accidents happen. Work with them a bit and it goes away.

Most of the people I know that actually train their dogs, get bite if they make a mistake usually a mis- target, not a redirected bite. Nips aren't totally uncommon, but they aren't normal either. It varies from group to group I think, but it's not always the training style, that's only one part. Usually it's because things are unclear and rushed and with a reactive dog, well things happen.

I've seen some worse stuff, biting and latching on, but those were unstable dogs, sold to unsuspecting "working" people that had someone buy a dog for them and teach them to handle it. They don't always get the best stuff.

 

[Emily]

there are plenty of Mals that don't bite their handlers for fun, a few will be biting me tomorrow for fun instead

Oh, I know. Which is why the "haha he chomped on me, how cool" attitude mystifies me.

Like I said, there are breeders/lines I'm quite interested when the time is right.

 

[Panzerotti]

Like I said, there are breeders/lines I'm quite interested when the time is right.

Just out of curiosity, would you mind sharing?

 

[adojrts]

I think a lot of things is perception and quite a bit of it is not knowing what you're looking at.

The example she used was of a racehorse who didn't earn his owner much in stud fees because he wasn't wild enough to run despite having an ok running record. I hate to be the one to break it to her that there are ALOT of variations in what can put a stud into demand and running record is only a small piece of it. Quite a bit may have other factors like - did any of the get turn out to be decent runners? Did the horse have dozens of siblings standing at stud with similar records in the same part of the country? Was a particularly good stud available nearby? Did the owner campaign the horse correctly?

The second was of a HIC test (which apparently the dog passed) which gave the guy running the test a surprising workout. Yep, it happens. Could be a reflection of the experience level of the guy handling the sheep and the dog, or it could just be the way the guy prefers to work dogs. Again, it's about perception vs reality - sometimes even the narrator's perspective isn't the whole picture.

I got a giggle out of the racehorse analogy as well, I spend many years on the end of shank as a showman leading high end Tb sales yearlings. A great deal of time and effort is put into sales prep and teaching them to be calm, walk into a proper stance, walk straight and not waste the time of a prospective buyer that has no tolerance for an ill mannered and poorly trained yearling when they have a 100 to look at and spend some serious coin on lol.

You take 2 yearlings with a with comparable outstanding pedigrees and conformation, the well trained and sensible yearling is preferred. While something that is difficult, hard to manage is always a risk to themselves and others.

 

[Fran101]

Very interesting article! I never knew so much went into the sport, then again other than a view videos/pictures here on chaz I've never heard much about it lol Couldn't pay me enough to be the guy in the bite suit haha

As a "pet person", and one who admits to being a pet person without shame lol I know that mals aren't the breed for me.. obviously.

but still lol I'm sure Romeo would LOVE this guy as backup at the dog park

 

[adojrts]

As side from the Tb giggle, the article had a lot of excellent points and reminds me of some personal protection GSDs I knew back in the early 80's. The dogs were owned by the farm owner and general manager of a large and very successful Tb farm. Both dogs had been trained as personal protection and the first one was unstable, period. He bit a number of people including people he saw daily and the farm went into locked down when he was taken out for exercise. Whether his failings were from poor training, poor genetics or a combo of both, I don't know. But he was turning into a large libility. The second dog was purchased and imported from Europe. My boss went over several times often for weeks or months at a time, as the pup's/dog's training progressed and the boss worked on building a realationship and training with him.
This dog was absolutely the most friendly, kind and loving dog anyone would want to meet. He was also the most terrifying dog I have ever met when given the guard or attack command, he was then all business and he was good at it. That dog was the definition of drive, control, training, off/on switch, balanced and stable minded along with being a very loving and kind dog.

He isn't the only one I have known like that but he is certainly the one that comes to mind first.

Sadly I have known or met far too many other dogs of various breeds with limited control, unstable minds and misdirected drives. What I find scary is the people that find that acceptable and worse breed it.........so your professional dog trainer can handle it (if they choose too) and possibly train it and have success, where as your average dog owner can't.

 

[stafinois]

When Harry was a puppy, my friends all referred to me as "Bloody Stumps." Ha. He came at me in two different situations, and I put an end to that. The guys in my club thought that I both babied him and put too much control work on him. Their dogs lived in kennels, and Harry was a housedog. In the end, I'm glad for what I did do with him, as eventually we lived in the middle of nowhere and he was downgraded to "just a pet."

Harry was extremely reactive and filled with nervous energy. His breeder doesn't breed for extreme dogs, but they happen. I don't think all of the calming exercises in the world could have gotten Harry to chill out. It doesn't make for a nice pet, but they make for dynamic competition dogs, which is why they seem to be getting more and more extreme.

 

[Red Chrome]

Judge came at me once. Once was all it took to make me realize that this was a dog that lived in my house, a dog that I had to live with on a daily basis and who had to cohabitate with me semi-peacefully. We had a "moment" right then and there. He has never done it since. There have been plenty of misdirected grabs and unintentional bites from me being in the way when he was in full out drive but I don't consider those a bad thing.

I got a dog that is EXTREMELY driven and like Stafinois said, they make for great competition dogs, not so great pets. I have a little APBT puppy now and her drive fails in comparison to him but she is much easier to live with. However, I have described her to friends as not having a lot of drive and being lazy, they said,"Courtney, she has plenty of drive and works hard, she just isn't extreme like Judge." A dog like Judge will ruin your perception of drive in others. LoLa(APBT) is far more balanced in her drives and although I'd like to see a little more drive all the way around, she is an awesome sport dog.

I think sometimes breeders breed for a specific purpose and those dogs should be ONLY sold for that purpose. Judge would have made a GREAT K9 dog and I've had many offers to buy him,that is where he shpuld have been sold too, not me.

I want a balanced dog that has it all.