Drive & Breaks & Steering - interesting blog post by Suzanne Clothier.
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/drive-and-brakes-and-steering
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/drive-and-brakes-and-steering
Drive, biting, lack of control, balance
- Thread starter Aleron
- Start date
This is actually very pertinent to me, as Pan nailed my leg hard (not enough to break skin, but enough to cause a large nasty bruise and scraping) yesterday. This isn't normal behaviour for her, but a combination of many factors resulted in a dog who got hyper-stimulated and lost her mind briefly.
While I agree with most of the article, I also think that when you deal with certain breeds, you have to be aware that getting bit is a very real and likely possibility. Yes, it is possible to train for a more calm and thinking state of mind (where Pan is 99% of the time), but be ready for some war wounds in the process.
While I agree with most of the article, I also think that when you deal with certain breeds, you have to be aware that getting bit is a very real and likely possibility. Yes, it is possible to train for a more calm and thinking state of mind (where Pan is 99% of the time), but be ready for some war wounds in the process.
While there certainly are lines that are known for flying up the leash at a handler I guess I just don't view drive as a problem or an excuse except in the sense it's a way of letting the handler know what they need to expect or perhaps they need to work out some energy before they get to having the dog learn anything.
I've never personally witnessed a dog with so much drive that they could not exist in a normal home under any circumstances or was untrainable. On the flip of that I have seen dogs poorly selected for owners who were either unwilling or unable to meet the mental or physical exercise requirements of a particular dog. They liked the idea of a "guard dog" but what they needed was a pug or cat and an alarm system.
ETA: Also I don't consider managing a dog as a failure of breeding - or training. I also get the feeling the author and I don't feel the same way about e collars.
I've never personally witnessed a dog with so much drive that they could not exist in a normal home under any circumstances or was untrainable. On the flip of that I have seen dogs poorly selected for owners who were either unwilling or unable to meet the mental or physical exercise requirements of a particular dog. They liked the idea of a "guard dog" but what they needed was a pug or cat and an alarm system.
ETA: Also I don't consider managing a dog as a failure of breeding - or training. I also get the feeling the author and I don't feel the same way about e collars.
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I liked the article, but I see so many reasons for some of the things described, i'm not sure how important it is.
I get the biting part and people's aversions to it. It bothers me, only because those that have zero knowledge, understanding or experience in it, try to make all the rules for those that do.
Every year there are concessions made in bite sports because some know nothing with the backing of people with bigger hearts than brains say it must be.
as for drive and redirected bites and control? man, never met a dog that couldn't be trained because it had too much drive and not enough brakes or steering, which she points out. But some need breaks and steering assembled. Once they learn a few things they're fine.
a lot of dogs are this way. I see a lot of dog that act in a way she might describe as out of control by design in training or on accident as well.
Coming up a leash? that happens for a lot of reasons. Some because the dog is crap. Some because the handler is crap and deserves it and a lot of reasons in between. There are hundred variables i'd have to take into account before passing judgement.
I get the biting part and people's aversions to it. It bothers me, only because those that have zero knowledge, understanding or experience in it, try to make all the rules for those that do.
Every year there are concessions made in bite sports because some know nothing with the backing of people with bigger hearts than brains say it must be.
as for drive and redirected bites and control? man, never met a dog that couldn't be trained because it had too much drive and not enough brakes or steering, which she points out. But some need breaks and steering assembled. Once they learn a few things they're fine.
a lot of dogs are this way. I see a lot of dog that act in a way she might describe as out of control by design in training or on accident as well.
Coming up a leash? that happens for a lot of reasons. Some because the dog is crap. Some because the handler is crap and deserves it and a lot of reasons in between. There are hundred variables i'd have to take into account before passing judgement.
And are we talking solely about handler directed aggression? Or all potential situations where a dog might grab their owner?
Aeri still will nip when she's overaroused, but handler directed aggression has never been an issue. The overarousal nipping is a work in progress and gradually lessening with work, ime handler directed aggression is a much tougher nut to crack.
Aeri still will nip when she's overaroused, but handler directed aggression has never been an issue. The overarousal nipping is a work in progress and gradually lessening with work, ime handler directed aggression is a much tougher nut to crack.
Agreed. Dealing with intense dogs with the potential for aggression is most obviously not everybody's cup of tea.
Look at those of us who have Mals living inside as "normal" dogs. It is possible, it just takes training and understanding what you're working with. I also agree that having to manage some aspects of the dog's life is not a sign of failure. You can't take a dog that is bred to be a hard-core police K9 or military dog and expect them to give kisses to everyone they meet. Some dogs in the breed can, sure, but those who can't certainly do not have "character flaws," lol.
The same goes for the occasional nailing of the handler. It's going to happen, and it's not the end of the world. It takes a bit of time to train away the behaviour, as Stardogs also mentioned.
However, it makes no sense to say that these intense dogs have "character flaws" because they have potential to redirect. That's like saying that sight hounds have "character flaws" because they might ignore your recall and take off after a rabbit.
Look at those of us who have Mals living inside as "normal" dogs. It is possible, it just takes training and understanding what you're working with. I also agree that having to manage some aspects of the dog's life is not a sign of failure. You can't take a dog that is bred to be a hard-core police K9 or military dog and expect them to give kisses to everyone they meet. Some dogs in the breed can, sure, but those who can't certainly do not have "character flaws," lol.
The same goes for the occasional nailing of the handler. It's going to happen, and it's not the end of the world. It takes a bit of time to train away the behaviour, as Stardogs also mentioned.
However, it makes no sense to say that these intense dogs have "character flaws" because they have potential to redirect. That's like saying that sight hounds have "character flaws" because they might ignore your recall and take off after a rabbit.
I guess I read it rather differently, but then I read it on my phone while waiting in line this a.m. So what do you expect lol.
I read it more as that a dog with a great deal of self control is not necessarily a dog that is lacking in drive in any way. That steadiness should compliment drive, not counteract it. And that believing a dog has to be borderline/out of control to be a top class performance dog is untrue and does a disservice to the dog and the trainer.
But perhaps I should do a re-read on a real screen later.
I read it more as that a dog with a great deal of self control is not necessarily a dog that is lacking in drive in any way. That steadiness should compliment drive, not counteract it. And that believing a dog has to be borderline/out of control to be a top class performance dog is untrue and does a disservice to the dog and the trainer.
But perhaps I should do a re-read on a real screen later.
Yeah, I think that that was the general idea that Clothier was aiming for.
The discussion kind of turned into a "dogs with potential to bite their owners are bad" kind of thing, which I obviously don't agree with.
I agree with Clothier's points that these top sport dogs don't have to wild, out of control beasts. However, it does take time to get there, and when you are training a pup or an older dog that is new to you, you might have to deal with the lack of brakes and steering (and bites) while you train your way to the end result.
The discussion kind of turned into a "dogs with potential to bite their owners are bad" kind of thing, which I obviously don't agree with.
I agree with Clothier's points that these top sport dogs don't have to wild, out of control beasts. However, it does take time to get there, and when you are training a pup or an older dog that is new to you, you might have to deal with the lack of brakes and steering (and bites) while you train your way to the end result.
I think a lot of things is perception and quite a bit of it is not knowing what you're looking at.
The example she used was of a racehorse who didn't earn his owner much in stud fees because he wasn't wild enough to run despite having an ok running record. I hate to be the one to break it to her that there are ALOT of variations in what can put a stud into demand and running record is only a small piece of it. Quite a bit may have other factors like - did any of the get turn out to be decent runners? Did the horse have dozens of siblings standing at stud with similar records in the same part of the country? Was a particularly good stud available nearby? Did the owner campaign the horse correctly?
The second was of a HIC test (which apparently the dog passed) which gave the guy running the test a surprising workout. Yep, it happens. Could be a reflection of the experience level of the guy handling the sheep and the dog, or it could just be the way the guy prefers to work dogs. Again, it's about perception vs reality - sometimes even the narrator's perspective isn't the whole picture.
The example she used was of a racehorse who didn't earn his owner much in stud fees because he wasn't wild enough to run despite having an ok running record. I hate to be the one to break it to her that there are ALOT of variations in what can put a stud into demand and running record is only a small piece of it. Quite a bit may have other factors like - did any of the get turn out to be decent runners? Did the horse have dozens of siblings standing at stud with similar records in the same part of the country? Was a particularly good stud available nearby? Did the owner campaign the horse correctly?
The second was of a HIC test (which apparently the dog passed) which gave the guy running the test a surprising workout. Yep, it happens. Could be a reflection of the experience level of the guy handling the sheep and the dog, or it could just be the way the guy prefers to work dogs. Again, it's about perception vs reality - sometimes even the narrator's perspective isn't the whole picture.
Yeah, that's how I read it too.
I especially think it's unfair to the dog. I see how Traveler is when we have bad weather or I'm just busy and can't get out for a couple weeks. Not being able to settle, to quiet his mind or body. Now, he's a high energy dog with a great off switch.
Then you see the dogs that can't quiet their mind ever. Have to be doing something or crated when not being worked and I feel bad that dog much like I do for the dogs that are always spooking at something, who's nerves are poor. To constantly be in a high state of arousal has to wear on them mentally.
And I do think a lot of times that kind of behavior is not only looked on as a tell for high drive but encouraged. And I really don't think that's fair to the dog
And I also really liked this part
I especially think it's unfair to the dog. I see how Traveler is when we have bad weather or I'm just busy and can't get out for a couple weeks. Not being able to settle, to quiet his mind or body. Now, he's a high energy dog with a great off switch.
Then you see the dogs that can't quiet their mind ever. Have to be doing something or crated when not being worked and I feel bad that dog much like I do for the dogs that are always spooking at something, who's nerves are poor. To constantly be in a high state of arousal has to wear on them mentally.
And I do think a lot of times that kind of behavior is not only looked on as a tell for high drive but encouraged. And I really don't think that's fair to the dog
And I also really liked this part
Have you ever owned or worked with a high-drive working line Malinois?
Mals are bred to bite, be reactive and very fast. Which means that they often act before they think and people get bit. As I and others have already said, yes you train against it, but **** happens during the process.
Biting = what a Malinois is born to do.
Do you have any experience in protection sports?
Completely OT side note...the difference between pet dog forums and working dog forums is kind of hilarious.
Mals are bred to bite, be reactive and very fast. Which means that they often act before they think and people get bit. As I and others have already said, yes you train against it, but **** happens during the process.
Biting = what a Malinois is born to do.
Do you have any experience in protection sports?
Completely OT side note...the difference between pet dog forums and working dog forums is kind of hilarious.