Drive, biting, lack of control, balance

[Aleron]

Harry was extremely reactive and filled with nervous energy. His breeder doesn't breed for extreme dogs, but they happen. I don't think all of the calming exercises in the world could have gotten Harry to chill out. It doesn't make for a nice pet, but they make for dynamic competition dogs, which is why they seem to be getting more and more extreme.

This is sort of what I was getting at. There is a range of temperaments that occur in any breed. When breeding the more "complicated" breeds, you will sometimes end up with dogs who are harder to live with, harder to train and who are a bit too extreme in one direction or another. I don't fault a breeder for that at all.

That is a bit different from selecting for such dogs generation after generation though. IMO breeding generations of dogs who have to live in kennels because no one can stand to be around them (or maybe because they tend to bite their people) isn't all that different from breeding for dogs who are put together so oddly that the general public thinks they're crippled or bird dogs who have to be trained with e-collars to hold a point instead of chasing and killing birds. It's all selecting for traits that shouldn't be part of the breed and historically are not but which give one an edge in their chosen competition.

I got a dog that is EXTREMELY driven and like Stafinois said, they make for great competition dogs, not so great pets. I have a little APBT puppy now and her drive fails in comparison to him but she is much easier to live with. However, I have described her to friends as not having a lot of drive and being lazy, they said,"Courtney, she has plenty of drive and works hard, she just isn't extreme like Judge." A dog like Judge will ruin your perception of drive in others. LoLa(APBT) is far more balanced in her drives and although I'd like to see a little more drive all the way around, she is an awesome sport dog.

You can have extremely driven dogs who don't want to bite you though. My first GSD was extremely driven and she never wanted to bite me. Her mother would bite her owner out of frustration in the agility ring. I think that may have been a case of focusing only on drive-drive-drive with no work on impulse control but I can't really say for sure. Impulse control wasn't a strong point in Jora either but we worked on it and she learned to have some, at least in some situations. She was aloof but tolerant with strangers though extremely protective if need be. I used to joke that she wished for burglars to break in so she could bite them. A few times I had to break in because I forgot my key and she charged into the room I was coming into, ready for a fight but instantly realized it was me. Very level headed dog overall. She was to me, a nearly perfect GSD

 

[Panzerotti]

Interesting to note as well is that Suzanne Clothier breeds GSDs that she places as "pets" and guide dogs, so she obviously does not enjoy a higher, drivier dog.

Not everyone wants a high energy intense Mal and that's fine. However, not every dog in the world should be laid back and easy for the average Joe to keep and train either, and this doesn't make them bad, flawed dogs.

 

[Emily]

However, not every dog in the world should be laid back and easy for the average Joe to keep and train either, and this doesn't make them bad, flawed dogs.

Nobody said that, ever. I'm personally bored to tears with "average" dogs and find intensity and drive delightful.

However, I don't find being chomped on regularly or repeatedly delightful, nor do I believe it particularly displays drive or intensity, and yes, I will continue to count it as a flaw.

 

[Linds]

Interesting to note as well is that Suzanne Clothier breeds GSDs that she places as "pets" and guide dogs, so she obviously does not enjoy a higher, drivier dog.

Not everyone wants a high energy intense Mal and that's fine. However, not every dog in the world should be laid back and easy for the average Joe to keep and train either, and this doesn't make them bad, flawed dogs.

But I think that's the point of the article (or at least what I got from it), that high drive, high energy and intense doesn't have to equal lack of self control, ability to calm themselves and that those abilities is not a tell for a dog lacking in drive.

 

[Dekka]

I agree. I do love dogs as high drive and as intense as possible please. But I don't enjoy lack of self control.

Reading things like Shaping Success really hit home that while it make take time and patience a extremely high drive dog should be able to master self control. And that does not mean getting bitten or crazy dog all along the way.

 

[Panzerotti]

I agree. I do love dogs as high drive and as intense as possible please. But I don't enjoy lack of self control.

Reading things like Shaping Success really hit home that while it make take time and patience a extremely high drive dog should be able to master self control. And that does not mean getting bitten or crazy dog all along the way.

No, but it does mean crazy dog at least part of the way. So, you get a wild, intense, dog/puppy and just because you want self-control it is amazing the day you get it? No.

Buzz acted like an ass in his own ways while Susan trained him, Swagger also had many "crazy" dog moments while Susan was in the training process. Border collies simply "leak" their drive in different ways. Her dogs didn't just magically become full of self-control.

The same goes for the Mals. In the process of teaching self-control, you may get bitten, that's what many Mals do when excited, especially as puppies. It isn't handler aggression, it's just momentary loss of thinking.

I am not the only one saying this.....the people here that have actually owned high drive Mals agree with me. Nowhere did I say that handler aggression is a desired trait.

 

[stardogs]

This thread is teaching me that one person's nip is another person's "serious bite" apparently.

Emily, you yourself mentioned your puppy hanging off your sleeve and finding it amusing at the time, yet you keep saying a high drive dog shouldn't bite and that's a disconnect for me.

So, given that I'd like to ask everyone active on the thread to help clarify a few things. When it comes to high drive dogs putting their teeth on people:
Is there an age cutoff for you at which point it stops being acceptable?
A type of grip?
Duration of the behavior?
Trigger?

I have the distinct feeling that most of us are on similar pages but something is getting lost in translation...

 

[stardogs]

My reply to the questions I'm asking:

Is there an age cutoff for you at which point it stops being acceptable? Yes, at full social maturity and competition readiness I do not want my dog mouthing me, ever, even when in a high arousal state, unless specifically cued to do so. When Aeri is ready to trial for her IPO1, I expect her to have figured out what situations are appropriate to use her mouth in and which are not.

A type of grip? In a dog out of puppy teething but before full training is completed, I am ok with nipping (front teeth) at this point in the process, but find any full mouth biting or hanging on faulty. Even nipping is unacceptable if it's due to anything but overarousal (fear biting for example).

Duration of the behavior? *Any* "holding on" after the dog has been taught where this behavior is appropriate (i.e. the sleeve in bitework) is unacceptable.

Trigger? High arousal state when nothing appropriate is available to grab while in the training process - e.g. after bitework and release of the sleeve while being asked to sit still, no toy or sleeve presented - is the only scenario I am ok with when actively training. Redirection due to frustration (i.e. coming up the leash, redirect after seeing the decoy, another dog, etc.) is not included in this scenario.

 

[Dekka]

Forgetting redirection (which I have been nailed by a few times)

When it comes to high drive dogs putting their teeth on people:

Is there an age cutoff for you at which point it stops being acceptable? since this is putting teeth on people vs biting. I say never. I rough house with my dogs and it works as a continuous reminder to keep bite inhibition fresh. They must stay gentle. As for biting with force, I would say a few months old at most?

A type of grip? I had one super high drive dog who nailed me a couple of times. It was a snap. Broke skin through a sleeve and drew blood.

Duration of the behavior? a couple of seconds at most

Trigger? her typical trigger was the end of an agility run, she didn't like it to be over.


That said IMO sure pups don't come with self control, but by the time you are working them in class or in public a bite should be exceedingly rare. I would say a pup should have a good handle on self control by a few months. AND its the trainers job to work the dog only in a way that the dog can keep hold of their self control.

I see high drive poorly trained dogs biting their handlers in agility. Or to a lesser degree barking at their handler.. both show a lack of self control.

 

[Emily]

Well I had a response typed up and my log-in timed out.

This is really very simple for me:

I've raised puppies.
I've raised puppies with a strong impulse to grab moving objects. I know what nipping is and I know what prey drive is. It doesn't scare me.

I simply have no desire to own a dog who is either handler aggressive OR so reactive that it runs any significant risk of redirecting on me because I move too fast around its tug, or what have you. I will not a feed a dog that consistently displays either of those behaviors. I believe it shows a lack of stability. I am not talking about puppy crap or innocent targeting errors.

Yes, handling absolutely effects both handler aggression and redirection! But to have to walk on eggshells or take special precautions against either is not something I will do. I think if a dog is reasonably handled, you shouldn't have any real worries about being chomped on, sorry.

I want a clear-headed dog. I am not impressed by random biting. It does not show drive. That is it. That is really the long and short of it.

 

[Emily]

The issue of dogs who start randomly grabbing at hands or whatever when excited doesn't strike me as being particularly related to drive in any way... unless the fat house pets at my work are high drive - LOL. When dogs get spun up most will start mouthing, IME.

Again, I would argue that it has more to do with how easily a dog is overstimulated than drive. And yes, we tend to like sport dogs that are easily stimulated, for a variety of reasons.

Where you draw the line is up to you, but it seems like common sense to me not to breed dogs that require very little stimulation in order to do a full mouth grab on their handler.

 

[Panzerotti]

That said IMO sure pups don't come with self control, but by the time you are working them in class or in public a bite should be exceedingly rare. I would say a pup should have a good handle on self control by a few months. AND its the trainers job to work the dog only in a way that the dog can keep hold of their self control.

I see high drive poorly trained dogs biting their handlers in agility. Or to a lesser degree barking at their handler.. both show a lack of self control.

Exactly, I completely agree. You have owned high drive dogs with the potential to redirect, so you aren't just talking out of your ass, I appreciate that.

And I also totally agree about the agility scenarios. I have also seen countless dogs biting their handlers during competition runs, and it has always been due to **** training. When a dog has a job to perform, it should focus on the task and not be biting or barking at the handler.

 

[Emily]

Exactly, I completely agree. You have owned high drive dogs with the potential to redirect, so you aren't just talking out of your ass, I appreciate that.

You could just say what you want to say, although passive aggression is really matches your eyes! :lol-sign:

You know what dogs I've owned, dealt with, and trained? That's pretty cool! How'd you do that?

 

[Panzerotti]

This thread is teaching me that one person's nip is another person's "serious bite" apparently.

Emily, you yourself mentioned your puppy hanging off your sleeve and finding it amusing at the time, yet you keep saying a high drive dog shouldn't bite and that's a disconnect for me.

Very good point.

Also, I agree with all of your responses to the biting questions.

 

[stardogs]

it seems like common sense to me not to breed dogs that require very little stimulation in order to do a full mouth grab on their handler.

Yea and I don't recall anyone saying otherwise...

(hence my comment about all of us likely being on a similar page just using different words)

 

[Emily]

I guess I'm done trying make my words sounds like everybody else's then, LOL.

ETA: If what I said is common sense, why do people insist on doing things like showing bruises and even broken skin that happened, "because their dog is just so high drive". *facepalm*

At this point we're just talking past each other and it's pointless. I'm really beyond caring. There are plenty of different dogs for all of us in the world. I'll stick to those that can do the work without eating me, thanks.

 

[Panzerotti]

You could just say what you want to say, although passive aggression is really matches your eyes! :lol-sign:

You know what dogs I've owned, dealt with, and trained? That's pretty cool! How'd you do that?

From your posts, it seems as though you work as some kind of pet dog trainer. That doesn't impress me, sorry. It also seems that your only trained dog is a Cocker/Golden mix....so pretty much the opposite type of dog that the rest of us are talking about.

You obviously aren't the type of person cut out to handle a strong working line dog, and that's fine. You admit that you would be walking on eggshells around a strong dog with potential to redirect. You just don't "get" these types of dogs, that's also fine. I would never own a Cocker/Golden mix, that's cool as well, everyone has their preferences.

But for you, someone with zero experience in these breeds, to claim that all dogs with potential to redirect are "flawed" is rather humorous.

 

[release the hounds]

I think I work with a fair number of pretty high drive dogs and most inadvertant bites are quickly dealt with thru training and targeting and clarity. It goes away because it isn't a temperment issue in the dog. The vast majority dont' have issues of constant challanges or redirecting.

That said there are a group of handlers that like handler aggression for whatever reason. i like dogs that stand up for themselves too, but if they're taking it to any act of aggression (anything beyond what one might deal witih in initial training) it's usually because it was created thru training or bad temperament. My experience has taught me it's mostly about handling.

 

[Emily]

You obviously aren't the type of person cut out to handle a strong working line dog, and that's fine. You admit that you would be walking on eggshells around a strong dog with potential to redirect. You just don't "get" these types of dogs, that's also fine. I would never own a Cocker/Golden mix, that's cool as well, everyone has their preferences.

But for you, someone with zero experience in these breeds, to claim that all dogs with potential to redirect are "flawed" is rather humorous.

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

Alright, I can go die laughing now. I'm glad you find me humorous because I'm about wet myself over here!!!! :lol-sign:

 

[MandyPug]

Emily can you please elaborate on your training experience?

This might clear up things if you really have had experience training for protection sports or have trained the higher drive protection work breeds.