Docking

[anna84]

I agree with Zoom. Most English Bulldogs need artificial insemination and c-sections just to have a healthy litter, and a lot of giant breeds don't make it to their 10th birthdays, while toy breeds have to many teeth and too little jaw space. I think docking and cropping, when done well, should be left alone until the bigger issues are adressed.

 

[noludoru]

Ditto what Zoom said.

Renee, that sounds adorable.. but I agree with Kharma.

 

[SizzleDog]

I've decided that my stance is something along the lines of not caring about a PROPERLY DONE dock/crop so long as we have dogs like the above still being bred to some random and arbitrary standard. It does nothing for the dog's health and is all solely for our aesthetic leanings.

I agree. To me, there are bigger issues than properly done crops and docks. I'm going to worry about puppy mills, no shelter/food/water, dog beating, dog fighting, and blatant abuse and neglect before I lift a finger against cropping and docking done by licensed, experienced vets.

As for docking... I'd rather have a tail prone to injury (like a Doberman tail - thin and bony, with no cushioning) docked at three days then painfully amputated at three years.

I'm terrified about my future puppy's tail (he's coming from the UK, once Ronin crosses the bridge which will be a loooong time from now!) - but he's going to be au naturale... and I'm terrified he's going to do something to his tail. Scares the poo outta me. I much prefer my dobes docked. Ears... I can take them or leave them, I prefer ears that have been cropped well, then correct natural ears, then incorrect natural ears, then ears poorly cropped. Notice "poorly cropped" is at the bottom of my list.

 

[Renee750il]

Shiva is mightily glad she has a tail. She finds great humor in whacking guys in the cods with it

 

[mrose_s]

hmm.
I don't really like crops or docks, I am yet to see a breed I prefer cropped to natural and the more I see undocked dogs the more I like them. I thin boxers with a full tail look amazing, much better tyhan docked/cropped and I think rotti's look so much more expressive, I havn't seen a dobe yet. Cockers also look great.
I do like the looks of docks on GSP's and GWP's but would still rather have it not done, I'm just not mad on chopping off bits of dogs for "traditional" reason.

On breeds like bassets and EB's, I really woudln't mind if some people started breeding for a dog that is much healthier, I know there was a reason for the basset to be bred, but it appears few working lines are really needed now.

 

[Squishy22]

I agree with zoom completely.

I feel sorry for the breeds are so deformed. My moms pug has breathing problems due to her short snout. She even gets nasty yeast infections in her nose roll that bother her terribly. Just look at all the breeds that have to live with certain problems just because their smushed in face, short legs, really long back, etc, looks good to people. THAT is selfish in my opinion.

 

[BostonBanker]

One of the reasons that I almost didn't get Meg is because I don't like the look of docked tails. Obviously, I'm glad I got her anyway, but I'd much prefer she had a tail instead of her little nubbin.

I have yet to see a breed that I prefer cropped/docked to natural. I think Dobes with floppy ears are stunning, love Aussies with their tails, and met a Pembroke corgi not long ago with his tail and though it was adorable. Yes, I think there are bigger battles to fight in the animal world, but it doesn't stop me from wishing people would just leave them alone.

And I agree that natural pittie ears are pretty much the cutest ones in dogdom.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I'm with you, Renee. : )

I love Fozzie's tail. It expresses his emotions, it's cute, it's comical, and he sees it as a playmate, like Lullah. It's hilarious... if you grab his tail and wave it around, and say "Get your tail" he will chase it in circles over and over, just to humor you.

No docking is part of the reason I prefer Cardigans.

 

[Paige]

I am not a fan. I like my dogs natural please. I don't have that issue in my breed thank goodness. If it's done properly I still dislike it but will respect you for doing it. If it's done poorly though BLARGH!

 

[ACooper]

I agree with Zoom.

And as for being there when docking is done, I HAVE been present for a litter docked, the pups gave one yip and that was the end of it.

I think tail chasing is cute too Renee ..........I wish you could shoot us some video of it! LOL

 

[anna84]

Am I the weird one that prefers the look of docked breeds? I think their adorable, love corgis and rotties and dobes. Plus your legs don't get whacked.

 

[noludoru]

No, plenty of us like them, LOL! (Not that I don't like tailed breeds, too)

I still think Middie should have had a docked tail... at the third or fourth digit, right before all his wavy hair ends. He constantly holds that bit of it differently that the rest. Silly dog.

 

[youhavenoidea]

I'm one for the docked / cropped side also.

I don't believe that either should be done past a few days of age, and never by just anyone who doesn't know what they're doing . . . but nonetheless, I like a dock / crop on the breeds that typically have them.

Docks especially, are done for good reason, if one is to use the dog for which it was bred.

I am anxiously awaiting my Weimaraner puppy, for example. They are left their natural ears for good reason (to aid in scenting), and have their tails taken at a 6" dock for good reason also. Although there is a smaller chance of a "house dog" injuring his tail and requiring amputation, when being hunted, as Weims, GSPs, etc. were intended to be used, a natural tail + underbrush and trees = bad news. For that matter, even during agility (which I plan to do with my dog), one good crack on the standard of a jump, or hyperextended around a weave-pole, can be enough to cause irreperable damage to the tail of a dog who doesn't possess God-given natural protection to such an apendage.

It really is a matter of preference . . . a matter in regards to which I happen to be a traditionalist; with emphasis on the practical reasoning behind it.


I'd be interested to see, out of those who are against docking, how many peoples' daughters' ears were pierced at a young age. Or how many's sons have been circumcized.

I understand fully that people get passionate in regards to what they believe in, but to call docking / cropping "abuse" is a little hyperbolic, in my opinion.

 

[Dekka]

this is what i think...that if you want to do that to your puppy you should have to stand there and watch.

For every litter I am there with the vet while it is done. While yes it is pain, there is no noticible lasting pain. One yelp (the same yelp as when they get their microchips) no constant whimpering or whining or crying. I am sure it hurts at the time. But not on going, if that makes sense.

 

[mrose_s]

on regards to circumcision or ear peircing in relation to docking and cropping. I would never peirce a kids ears unless they asked for it (i asked at 6 and still love them, still have the original holes) and my mother did get my brother circumcised and says she regrets it all the time, she didn't want to but her husband did, she still wishes she hasn't. I don't like docking, cropping, circumcision or piercing babies ears.

I wouldn't call it abuse, but I don't like it. I rarely see the reasoning in it and just don't think "its tradition" is really gonna cut it as a reason.

 

[DryCreek]

Kinda funny timing with this post about tails and docking as I just finished reading this news story.

Dogs with docked tails can grow up mean: study

Victoria study with robo-dog shows lack of full tail limits communication

Nicholas Read , Canwest News Service
Published: Monday, March 24, 2008

Dock your dog's tail, and you run the risk of making it more aggressive. So say two University of Victoria scientists after observing how 492 real-life dogs reacted to a robotic dog with and without a docked tail.

UVic biologist Tom Reimchen and graduate student Steve Leaver wanted to find out what effect cutting off a dog's tail might have on its behaviour and the way other dogs behave around it. What they discovered was that dogs will approach a dog with a docked tail more cautiously than they will a dog with a complete tail. And that, says Reimchen, could make the dog with a docked tail more aggressive.

"Think of it this way," he says. "What type of teenager would you get if everyone approached him saying, 'I don't trust you'? What type of personality would emerge from that? It could be the same in dogs."

These findings, based on a series of observations made in the summer of 2006, are published in the latest edition of Behaviour magazine, a European science journal dedicated to the study of animal and human behaviour.

Reimchen hypothesized that if a dog lacks a tail, arguably the most important communication tool it has when it comes to relating to other dogs, its behaviour could be negatively affected. To test that hypothesis, Leaver outfitted a toy dog with a motor in its hindquarters that would wag - or not - one of two artificial tails Leaver could attach to its rear end. The first tail was 30 centimetres long, roughly the length of a normal tail, and the second was nine centimetres, roughly the length of a docked tail.

Then Leaver took the robo-dog, which resembled a black lab, to a number of off-leash parks in the Victoria area to observe how real dogs reacted to it.

"When the long tail was wagging, then other dogs would approach (the robo-dog) in a confident friendly way," Leaver said in an interview. "But when the tail was still and upright, they were less likely to approach, and if they did, it was in a less confident way."

That, he said, was consistent with normal dog behaviour. In dog "language" a wagging tail usually means "come play with me," while a stiff, upright tail usually means "stay away" or at least "approach with care."

But when Leaver fixed the shorter tail to the toy dog, real dogs were more likely to believe that discretion was the better part of valour and approach it warily, Reimchen said, regardless of whether the shorter tail was wagging.

"Without a tail, whether it was wagging or not, it was closer to the situation where the [long] tail was upright and still," he said.

So, Reimchen surmises, if a puppy's tail is cut off when it's two or three days old, as is often done by breeders of such dogs as Doberman pinschers and Rottweilers for purely cosmetic reasons, it's possible that that puppy's experiences with other dogs will be affected for the rest of its life. And that could lead to the dog becoming more remote and aggressive.

"Our research does show a possible connection between losing that signal and losing the ability to communicate with a potential increase in aggression," he said.

A dog that lacks the ability to express its intentions with its tail may have to resort to other methods, Leaver says, such as growling, lunging or even biting. Or a dog that is always treated as if it were something to beware of, Reimchen says, may become a dog to beware of.

"It's not rocket science," he explained. "Suppose you have a group of 10 puppies, and two of them have their tails chopped off. If we look at those two puppies minute by minute, day by day, and how not being able to signal with their tails is going to affect them, my thinking is that this could lead to a personality that is more cautious and eventually more aggressive."

For opponents of tail docking, the UVic research is one more reason for Canada to follow the lead of Britain, several European nations and Australia and ban or at least limit the practice here.

Said Peter Fricker of the Vancouver Humane Society: "Tail docking is just cosmetic surgery and it's totally unnecessary. It can be a painful procedure and it removes one of the dog's key ways of communicating."

I personally prefer natural tails as it's the first clue to a dogs intention that I can see. I'm very near sighted and it takes a second to focus on smaller clues while the tail is prominent.

 

[noludoru]

Oh. My. God. Where do I begin?

Dogs with docked tails can grow up mean: study

No, you don't say? And here I had been thinking that if you docked your dog's tail it had such an impact on the dog's personality that it was magically perfect. Someone even told me when you dock them they know what 'stay' means, too.

Dock your dog's tail, and you run the risk of making it more aggressive. So say two University of Victoria scientists after observing how 492 real-life dogs reacted to a robotic dog with and without a docked tail.

Because, as we all know, how dogs react with a robot is a clear indication of how they'll act with a real dog.

What they discovered was that dogs will approach a dog with a docked tail more cautiously than they will a dog with a complete tail. And that, says Reimchen, could make the dog with a docked tail more aggressive.

Well, did the robot become more aggressive?

"What type of teenager would you get if everyone approached him saying, 'I don't trust you'? What type of personality would emerge from that? It could be the same in dogs."

Teenagers, robots, and dogs? This guy is all over the place. Besides, as a teenager, I can tell you that I don't wag my tail and people approach me just fine. (Honestly, I think that if I did wag my tail when people approached they would be far more cautious.)

"Our research does show a possible connection between losing that signal and losing the ability to communicate with a potential increase in aggression," he said.

Because the only way dogs communicate is with their tails. Kind of like the only way humans communicate is with their mouths.

"It's not rocket science," he explained. "Suppose you have a group of 10 puppies, and two of them have their tails chopped off. If we look at those two puppies minute by minute, day by day, and how not being able to signal with their tails is going to affect them, my thinking is that this could lead to a personality that is more cautious and eventually more aggressive."

Apparently not. But then again we're assuming that a tail is the only way dogs communicate. Aren't they contradicting themselves here a little bit? I thought it was the dogs approaching the dog with "its tail chopped off" that was going to be cautious, not the tail-less one.

I wont go on..... but, DryCreek, I love you... this is so amusing... I just... ohhhh it's beyond words it's so funny. *click* *cookie*

 

[smkie]

I don't think it makes them grow up mean, i just think it is cruel to cut ears off of babies. I have my ears pierced too and the little hole in teh fat of the lobe is nothing compared to how sore the higher one in teh cartiledge was. I just don't see why it is necessary to even make a baby yelp for an something that is completely unjust. As to bird dogs and docked tails for safety in teh field, I believe it is complete bunk. They get bloody tips of tails when forced to live in runs which is where most bird dogs use to be kept from wagging and banging agaisnt the concrete and wires. I think it is a waste to make a dog live like that too. I have never seen a bird dog with a pointer whippy tail ever bust while running in the field or woods.

 

[Toller_08]

Some people probably will think I'm a horrible, cruel person for this... but I witnessed pretty much all of Keira's litter being cropped and I still don't disagree with the practice at all. The puppies were in a some pain, obviously, but they certainly weren't traumatized by the cropping. After they came out of anaesthesia all they did was eat dinner and play like nothing happened. They got upset if a litter mate grabbed their ears in while playing, but that was about the only time they should any sign of pain. I've watched pups being docked before too, and they were a little upset, but it wasn't a lasting pain. They were back to normal within minutes.

Personally, I don't think there's a much more elegant, beautiful looking dog out there than a properly cropped/docked Doberman. I like floppy ears too, and would prefer a floppy over a poorly cropped Dobe any day, but my preference is a properly cropped/docked dog. In fact, I'd really like to own a completely 'natural' Doberman one day, though I am a little concerned about the tail having heard a lot of stories about adult Dobes breaking them. And I'm just using Dobes as an example simply because that's the breed I have.

And as far as docked dogs growing up vicious... that has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard/read in a long time.

I think there are far worse things out there to be worrying about than the whole docking/cropping issue, and completely agree with Zoom's and Sizzle's comments earlier in this thread.

 

[darkchild16]

Ears are done on my APBT for a reason. Everyone who says its mean and abuse should be forced to watch a APBT's ear get sliced by a hog tusk. Ever hear a APBT scream? So for me all my working dogs WILL be cropped. It is done professionally by one of the best vets in my area. Tytus had no issues with his and if they had been left there is a few times it would have been ripped open and i will NEVER chance that with a dog of mine. I have only heard a APBT scream twice in my life. Once when a ear was ripped (not my dog) and once when Booger moved her legs the wrong way. That sound still haunts me it is the worst sound ever. APBT do not show pain and to hear them scream is rare.