Cropping and docking illegal in New York

[tessa_s212]

The reproductive organs aren't necessarily 'vital'. They are not necessary for life - well, for the life of that individual animal. Life can and is sustained after the removal of these organs. Having these parts removed does not kill the animal. The correct term would instead be 'important' or any other synonym, but not necessarily "vital".

So docking, cropping, and spay/neuter are all removing parts of the body that are not vital or necessary to sustain life. So rather, now.. it is just about a closer examination of *why* the procedures are done.. and for the most part, s/n has much more valid reasoning behind it than cosmetic procedures - as so far I've not seen or been shown where cropping or docking is a preventative procedure in that such injuries occur in high enough frequency that it is reasonable to cut of all [pet] dogs (of particular breeds) tails.

 

[CharlieDog]

Okay, well vital, or important, whatever the word, the reproductive organs provide necessary hormones to the dogs body that the dog needs. Ears and tails, last I checked, do not.

Correlation is not causation.

 

[tessa_s212]

Which then leaves the problem of just who is breeding dogs with no purpose other than pets? BYBs are the only ones producing dogs with tails (that should be docked).

Well, I can think of handfuls and handfuls of show breeders that want nothing to do with working a dog in the field, but still dock due to 'breed standard'. For them, it is purely cosmetic. They could argue until they were blue in the face about working dogs, but their dogs are not working dogs, and the dogs they produce (considering they are not breeding selectively for dogs that could work) likely wouldn't be successful in the field. No serious bird game hunter that I know of would go for strictly show bred dogs.. sooo...

JMHO

As as for BYB's being the only one... a friend and excellent breeder of Wirehaired Vizslas has decided to not dock her next upcoming litter. She's far from a BYB(I think she still owns/has produced the top WH vizsals in the country).

 

[tessa_s212]

Okay, well vital, or important, whatever the word, the reproductive organs provide necessary hormones to the dogs body that the dog needs. Ears and tails, last I checked, do not.

Correlation is not causation.

But if you want to argue about preventative procedures... s/n could also easily be argued as a preventative procedure. Not so much for male dogs, but most certainly for female dogs concerning the alarming number of female dogs that will develop mammary tumors if they are not s/n. If they are metastic, they go straight for the lungs. I'd hate to have that happen to my dog (as we have had two dogs develop mammary tumors in the past) and especially for females, I see it as a preventative procedure.

You see, the line just isn't that black and white. It just isn't that straight and clear cut. There are jagged edges and gray areas, and we could argue until our faces turn blue.. won't get us anywhere. Lol. IMO, s/n is far from being comparable to an unnecessary cosmetic surgery, even if still only done for the ease of preventing litters with no accidents ever able to happen.

 

[happyhound]

As as for BYB's being the only one... a friend and excellent breeder of Wirehaired Vizslas has decided to not dock her next upcoming litter. She's far from a BYB(I think she still owns/has produced the top WH vizsals in the country).

From the WHV litters I've seen it is pretty common to leave the tails. I don't think it is even that common to dock them in their native country.

And I'd say a show-only breeder is still a faaaar step above a BYB.

 

[CharlieDog]

Look up the number of female dogs that DIE from mammary tumors. Not from related problems, but from the tumors themselves.

Many female dogs will develop mammary tumors regardless of their s/n status and at whay age they were s/n at. If you take a female to the vet with a mammary tumor they tell you to watch it. Provided it doesn't grow, they don't even remove them.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

From the WHV litters I've seen it is pretty common to leave the tails. I don't think it is even that common to dock them in their native country.

And I'd say a show-only breeder is still a faaaar step above a BYB.

WHV standard is pretty easy going on tails... It's a total choice, but it's mentioned they can be shortened to prevent hunting injuries.

TAIL : Set on at medium height, strong at the base, then tapering. In countries where tail docking is not prohibited by law, the tail may be shortened by one quarter to avoid hunting hazards. If the tail docking is prohibited, the tail reaches down to the hock joint and is carried straight or slightly sabre like. On the move, it is raised up to the horizontal. The tail is well furnished with dense coat.

 

[Dekka]

But if you want to argue about preventative procedures... s/n could also easily be argued as a preventative procedure. Not so much for male dogs, but most certainly for female dogs concerning the alarming number of female dogs that will develop mammary tumors if they are not s/n. If they are metastic, they go straight for the lungs. I'd hate to have that happen to my dog (as we have had two dogs develop mammary tumors in the past) and especially for females, I see it as a preventative procedure.
\

Umm but you add more health problems if you s/n especially if you do it young. So its not really useful to say its a preventative when it increases other health problems.

 

[tessa_s212]

Mammary tumors, if metastic, go straight to the lungs. Very deadly. Not something I'd joke around with. Don't remember the exact statistic, but a good half of mammary tumors are malignant. 50% is not a number I'm willing to play the odds with.

 

[CharlieDog]

You need to read this then.

Spay/neuter: As close to the real story as I can get it. Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004

 

[freedomwolf]

Finally!!! I am sooo glad that they are banning that. I hate to see animals with there tails docked. It hurts me to see them have something taken away that they were born with.

 

[Dekka]

Finally!!! I am sooo glad that they are banning that. I hate to see animals with there tails docked. It hurts me to see them have something taken away that they were born with.

Yes its so much better for a dog to rip it up and bleed, or to need to have it amputated later. Sooo much better to risk a JRT in the earth breaking its tail and being fair game for the quarry.... *roll eyes. That is sooo much better to see.

 

[corgipower]

Well talk to most people other than youself then... MOST litters will have a few the shriek if you hold them firmly still. I mean really.

Many of the litters I've seen have pups that shriek if they get too far from the teats.

A hamster will bite you if you pick it up around the middle too.

I've never been bitten by a hamster, and I'm sure I've picked them up around the middle. Maybe I was lucky with good-tempered hamsters.

The reproductive organs aren't necessarily 'vital'. They are not necessary for life - well, for the life of that individual animal. Life can and is sustained after the removal of these organs. Having these parts removed does not kill the animal. The correct term would instead be 'important' or any other synonym, but not necessarily "vital".

The reproductive organs do a lot more than reproduction. The hormones produced are important for growth. Removing the reproductive organs ~ especially prior to maturity ~ increases many cancer risks, triples the risk of hypothyroidism. The surgery itself is more invasive and therefore more risky that a C/D. There are dogs that don't survive a S/N procedure. There are dogs that have serious complications after the surgery.

Finally!!! I am sooo glad that they are banning that. I hate to see animals with there tails docked. It hurts me to see them have something taken away that they were born with.

OK. I can understand you not wanting to read through the whole thread.

But NY did not ban cropping and docking. I have yet to see if it'll come up again next year.

 

[FoxyWench]

late and havent read the entire thread but...

i come from the uk, ear cropping was banned LONG before i came along and is considered a cruel procedure (any one that wants to tell me its not painfull needs to go and have the cartlidge of their ears shaved off stitched up and essentially glued to whatever is being used to shape it...) and purely cosmetic, the crops of todays show dogs are nothing like the origional utliity crops there much longer...
i personally think it "looks" cool on some breeds but would never do it, its painfull, and 100% purely for the look as most of those cropped breeds are now cropped solely for "show" looks, because even if they were being used for their origional purpose those long crops would be useless...

tail docking was still legal when i was in the uk and in that time (along with since moving here) i saw many tail docks, in truth most of the pups didnt seem to notice...mabe theres the difference...the age at which its done?
and along the same lines of the above tail docking still serves a purpose, eath dogs ect are still used ot go to ground, hunting ect in which tail damage can be done...

however, here in the usa, im not sure banning it would do any good, ive seen waht people can do to their animals...and it wouldnt suprise me that if banned cropping and/or docking that all the crazies would just start doing it at home...and while a tail dock isnt quite as difficult to screw up, a home done ear crop?! terrifying!

 

[smkie]

THey need to bring back the book Beautiful Joe if that happens. I still have my copy.

 

[bubbatd]

Forgot about that Smkie !

 

[CharlieDog]

Beautiful Joe is an excellent book that illustrates what would happen should C/D be banned.

 

[noodlerubyallie]

IF you don't want to grab your dog by the tail or the ear while it is protecting you, then don't grab it by the tail or the ear. I have broken up enough fights without doing so with dogs that had both.

I wouldn't grab a dog by it's ear or tail. I'm saying that someone who wants to grab my dog to get it away from themselves or me so they can harm me would try for the loose things to avoid the teeth - as floppy ears and a long tail are the ONLY things you can just "grab" on an uncropped/natural tailed Doberman.

I'm with Jess.

 

[Laurelin]

One argument struck me from someone who was anti crop/dock and from a country where it is banned nonetheless. Why is it okay to do these kinds of surgeries on other animals? They dock more than just dogs of course (sheep, some manx cats, etc). As far as ears go, we use ear tags all the time in livestock. The feral cats around here have part of their ear removed and no one bats their eye at all. Why this double standard?

I have mixed feelings on cropping (mostly the posting process not the surgery), but docking doesn't bother me at all. Still working on my stance.

 

[gale]

Yes its so much better for a dog to rip it up and bleed, or to need to have it amputated later. Sooo much better to risk a JRT in the earth breaking its tail and being fair game for the quarry.... *roll eyes. That is sooo much better to see.

My FIL had an Aust. Shepherd that was not docked and it constantly grabbed at its tail. There was nothing wrong with the tail-he just hated it I guess. Our Aussie's tail was docked and FIL's current pup is docked also.