just plain messy

Ohhh I remember him! I don't remember the drama though to be honest.

Exactly my point (I elaborated on my last post) it's the lying and deceitful posts that make me go "why is anyone defending this person" - please, when the original poster is either too embarrassed or afraid to defend themselves, something isn't right.

It'd just be some nice closure to see a post that says "This is the truth, that was lies as you've found out...I don't intend on doing this again".etc and MEANING IT. Yeah, that about sums it up, but I guess if I lied out my butt like that, I'd be pretty **** embarrassed too.

Seven Seas - Home

to those wanting her website. its public, its on the internet..she knows people are going to see it.

as for the site..whatever. it is what it is, I don't like to see breeding rights being sold off for a bit extra ("discussed" or not, I dont think ANY of these pups should be bred)
and I don't like the use of a picture of dogs from another breeder that do not belong to her as her homepage
no information on health testing, or even ANY information on the sire and dam other than a picture, their registered names, color and weight.

I know foxy, I know she loves her dogs.. but if this website was posted here from a newbie and we didn't know her, and they wanted to know if this breeder was one we thought was good.
Im pretty sure the general consensus would be NO

I think after all of this, I am just sad for the dogs. I hope they live happy, healthy lives. Sure, our feelings were hurt too, but ooh well, doesn't look like were going to get much "closure". You'd think we'd learn our lesson by now, from all of the others who've came on Chaz and lied, yuck, we've gotten attached and trusted them. Everytime I hear the name Binn it still stings...

The thing that KILLS me... Is Foxy gave Fabulous advice on Chaz ALL the time, about finding a GOOD breeder (avoiding a byb) training, etc etc. I think that's way this whole thread came to me as a shock. Talk about taking your own advice....


I do have a question, though. About testing and all of that. Maybe someone more experienced could make a sticky? Mia has been health tested, I looked her up in the OFA and CERF database after we got her. I know that she rated "good" and "fair" in everything or whatever... But Now this is the least healthy dog we have... She had to have surgery for her luxating patella, we found old vet records of a cherry eye removal, she has mamory tumors that had to be removed when spayed(I know, not test related). And now she has arthritis bad in the one hip, not sure what the prognoses is on that one. . . Anyway, I know she was tested and had At Least one litter, maybe two. Should she Not have been breed for her "fair" ratings?

It often feels there is suh a huge gap between "show" world and "rescue" world. Of course, some good breeders assist with the rescues as much as they can. I was recently thanked a million times for helping a family find a breeder, instead of ridiculing them about not rescuing I also find that sad.
but even WITH the health tests, we still have a dog who is unhealthier than the rescues :rofl1: where did we go wrong?

(and for the record, we were going to get Mia before we knew she was from a show home, she didn't really tell us until we got there and we saw the pictures and ribbons and papers and stuff )

i'm sorry but "$850 pet contract, $1000 full breeding rights!"??. we're talking a "oops" litter at best from untested, unproven parents. can these pups even be AKC registered?

i really never know what to say when people start bringing up "if there weren't bad breeders, i wouldn't have xyz beloved dog". fair enough. i wouldn't have luce or shroom and i wouldn't have had harv. but if there weren't bad breeders, there would be a lot less suffering in this world, a lot less heartache. we wouldn't have a shelter full of dogs, we wouldn't have landfills full of dog carcasses, because a good breeder will always take back their dogs if something happens.

i love my byb pit bulls. i never would have purchased them from their breeders though. i cannot imagine my world without them. luce is my best friend and the most amazing dog in the world. but i wish, too, that they'd never been born.

Disgusting how much they're being charged for and how they can be sold as breeders. I don't recall who said it, but I very much doubt this was an accident, especially with both those things in play. Can only hope now that these dogs don't go to dummies who plan to breed them.

I absolutely agree with you. Thank you for posting the website, Fran. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but this has, sadly, somewhat answered a lot of my questions- especially why Foxy has not and most likely won't return anymore.

"We strive to produce puppies of incredible temperament" plus charging $800 to $1000? THAT is not an oops litter, and even if it was, THAT is no deal to deal with one. THAT to me is a BYB at its finest. And I am sorry, while I am happy for you Pam, I can't imagine why someone would knowingly support it. RD has summed my feelings up perfectly on the other thread:

Yes, nicely put RD


I guess I'm in a different boat. After reading a bit, I never thought this was an oops litter I think it was 100% planned, that's why she got the male... but, that is jmho. Does that make it right, or better? NO, not in my book

Thanks for putting up the link, AGonzalez.

I also think it's sad that these are being matched up with owners at 2 weeks old. What about matching the personality with the home? Why not keep a list and match them at 8-10 weeks? Oh well.

yeah I know people don't really understand when I say if it weren't for non show breeders I would have xyz dog. I'm just not as OUTRAGED as everyone else when it comes to breeding. We got Teddy from an Amish farm for $50. Girl dog got mixed up with the neighbor dog and basically were trying to get rid of the pups. I don't regret it and I don't for a second wish he had never been born.

Yes it's sad that animals end up in shelters. Belle was at the shelter for 6 months. we are so glad we found her. although I don't think she was a surrender I think someone just tried to hunt with her and her nose took her far far away. She came in as a stray.

I find it sad and I don't like that people charge such outrageous prices for pet only quality. but I"m just not downright outraged over breedings. Puppy mills yes those outrage me. but not so much someone breeding their two pets. is it ideal? no but it's not the worst thing to ever happen to this earth

From my understanding, you want to have the hips and such checked every couple (few?) years to make sure nothing has changed. She could have had those tests done right when she turned two but the problems didn't show up till later.

You are absolutely right Fran, no doubt about it..........and that doesn't count all the stories (plural) we've heard from Foxy about her dogs as well. Rescues, not rescues, health problems, no health problems, oops litter, planned breeding for the future.......it's all enough to rule that breeder out WITHOUT seeing that website. The website is just frosting on the cake.

I am very disheartened to see her advertising 'breeding rights' for these pups.......it makes me sad beyond belief because SHE DOES KNOW BETTER. She is not an uneducated 'joe shmo' off the street

She fooled all of us, Mods too. We bought her stories hook line and sinker. I'm going to be completely forth coming and say when this first came to light I was confused and thought SURELY there was an explanation. Then I was hurt she could behave that way and walk out. Now, after seeing that website for myself, I am angry. Angry that she fooled me so thoroughly, angry that it was completely intentional, and angry she doesn't have the spine to show her face back here. I completely agree with those who say it was no oops..........no accident litter, and that makes me even angrier!

But that anger will not be directed at Pam or the puppy. Yes, Pam might be acquiring from a BYB, but I know in my heart that Pam will not breed this little girl..........she will be a great home, and this pup will be spayed and removed from the cycle. For that I can be happy.

Agreed!
And thanks for posting the link.

There's a big difference between charging $50 for an oops and charging $800-1000 for an oops.

Or selling an "oops" with full breeding rights... Especially ones that can't even be registered with a reputable organization.

Overlooking all else, I'm bothered by the breeding rights (and charging more for them).

OFAs are not the end all be all they are cracked up to be, imo. I'm not saying they're not a useful tool but knowing lines and health yourself is more important. OFA is just a ruling on one x-ray, it's not always right. Even then health testing is not foolproof. You can have a dog pass all the tests and then end up siring a litter with HD. Or you can have what happened with Hiro happen to you. He had NAD which is a very rare untestable genetic disorder. There was no way the breeder would know her dogs carried it until you had an unfortunate pairing like we did. I can't fault the breeder for that because well... sh!t happens even to the best of us.

No breeder knows at 2 weeks which dogs will be breeding quality. It's just not possible. By that age the best you could possibly do is eliminate dogs with disqualifying faults from being breeding quality. You can't tell much at all from a 2 week old. Even ignoring conformation, you have no idea about health or temperament at 2 weeks of age. Even at 8 or 10 or 12 weeks the best you can say is a dog is breeding potential. To sell breeding rights at 2 weeks to me is extremely shady.

Interestingly the site is gone now.

but so much is still going into those puppies. they still come from health tested, proven parents. they are still socialized extensively and receive all the important early care. they cost just as much to produce, and the breeder wants just as good homes for them. why should they be bargain bin priced? they aren't any less valuable (or shouldn't be) because they're not ending up in the show ring.

unless you're talking about bybers like this, in which case, they are able to charge so much money because they talk a good line and people are so into instant gratification that they'll pay it. if you can get $1000 for a puppy, why wouldn't you?

Thanks Laur and Liz. I was thinking along those lines. I now worry for her puppies, but no way to contact them anyway, as I don't know how many or where or what

Cerf doesn't cover cherry eye. Unless the gland is so loose that it has a tendency to partially pop out and go back regularly.. You wouldn't know before it just pops. Breeds with cherry eye issues people are torn on it being genetic or environmental. Possibly a combo of both. There are cocker lines known for not having eye issues whatsoever, and then suddenly there is a pup with cherry eye. If everything else is great it might be bred and no one sees cherry eye again for decades. Out of the number of horrible cocker eye issues, cherry eye is pretty minor. Sad, but it doesn't offend me the way the other dozen or so eye problems do... plus it seems to sometimes just happen. Other eye problems are more predictable than that.

Do you remember what they actually tested for? Eyes and hips are the cocker norm. Nothing else. It's all it takes to get an OFA CHIC number. Only hips aren't a 'usual' cocker issue. Knees are. That said it's always a combination of genetics and it can be a crap shoot. Did both parents have good knees were they even both tested as it's not a usual in the cocker world. Even if both parents rate well sometimes genetics can throw you for a loop..

Things like arthritis can be injury related. It's part of why many breeders don't cover puppies for life as environment can effect dogs just as much as genetics. A breeder can only do so much to set your dog up to be the best it can be.

OFA hips are often not repeated. It is a snapshot in time.. but it often seems to be a pretty telling one unless the dog gets injured to change the original OFA result. Eyes are redone regularly as is thyroid and a few others. Often results requiring xrays are not.

Having a single dog less healthy than some rescued dogs isn't really any indication of anything at all. Of course there are going to be quite a few exceptions. Look at all the chaz dogs who are very healthy who are rescue dogs.. But its a stats thing... (remembering GOOD breeders, not skeezy show breeders) And the perceptions, if you have an unhealthy dog from a breeder its OMG an unhealthy well bred dog!! OTH a rescue who has health problems people shrug and say well its a rescue dog. One is 'news' the other isn't....

So the site has been heavily redesigned since last night - mostly to reflect the original "oops" story, no prices listed, no breeding program info, etc. The lies and deceit just keep coming.

I know I don't post much and haven't been on Chaz for too long, but I do have to say I was surprised at how many people can overlook a member who should know better than to give money in the form of puppy buying to a BYB. It's one thing to unknowingly do that and then join a board, but to ignore all the great info shared here seems pretty odd to me. And yes, if this was a free pup it would be different as it doesn't encourage another litter, but to pay? I dunno, just seems a bit strange to me to give great advice and ignore it when it could apply to your own situation.

I've never understood the "if not for non-show breeders" argument either - if non-show breeders didn't exist, then I'm sure everyone who got a dog from less than ideal circumstances would still have an awesome dog they loved, just as they do now.

I absolutely love my shelter dogs - that doesn't mean I want shelters to have to continue to exist just because I got cool dogs from one (i.e. I'd be thrilled if there were no unwanted litters or dogs that needed places to be cared for). I acknowledge that I could be just as happy if the only option was a reputable breeder and in fact I'd love to see that day happen, though I doubt it ever will in my lifetime.