Puggles and Doodles and -Poos, Oh My!

[StillandSilent]

I'm trying to get this designer dog trend sorted out in my mind, because I find it totally fascinating.
Now, to the best of my understanding, the Australian Labradoodle is considered a breed, because it breeds true, right? All pairings are Labradoodle to Labradoodle?
However, American Labradoodles are more of the 'Hey Bob, you have a pretty poodle bitch, why don't I bring my lab over and we can make some money' variety.
Is there any push in America to have Labradoodles/Puggles/Goldendoodles etc become a breed with standards of their own? Are there breeders who are actually trying to create these new mixes as breeds, or is it more of a 'look how cute' fad?

 

[Saeleofu]

Yes, the Australian Labradoodle is a breed, and they are bred labradoodle to labradoodle now (that doesn't mean there aren't people in Australia who also breed lab x poodle for a quick buck). They were created in an attempt to find a hypoallergenic guide dog for a woman in Hawaii who's husband was allergic to dogs. He was okay with some poodles, but not labs, but they couldn't find a poodle that could do the job well, so they started crossing them. It took a LOT of trial and error before they found one the husband wouldn't react too (they sent hair/saliva samples to see if her husband would react to them) and that could do the job well. The reason a woman in Hawaii was looking to get a dog from Australia is because of the rabies quarantines. Both Hawaii and Australia are rabies-free, so it's not as big of an issue. That all being said, the guy who coined the term "Labradoodle" has said he wishes he never would have called them that. But at the time in Australia, they couldn't find puppy raisers for "lab/poodle mixes" so calling them "Labradoodles" and making them seem special was all in a desperate attempt to get puppy raisers.

And yeah, here in the US they're just mutts. On occasion you will see an imported Labradoodle (someone I know has one), but it's uncommon and they're expensive.

And then sometime you have people argue with you that cockapoos ARE an AKC breed, and nothing you say will change their minds *headdesk*

 

[Dekka]

I was under the impression they gave up on that project as they couldn't get them to breed true.

 

[Saeleofu]

They breed true, they just don't necessarily have the qualities a guide dog needs to have.

 

[Dekka]

Reading the Australian Labradoodle Ass website its not clear. They have used more breeds than just labs, and poodles. There are 6 breeds tossed in there, and they are still crossing back out to poodle, no problem. Actually you can cross back to any of the 6 breeds you just get put back to what "number" grading your litter is.

It doesn't seem like they are getting a set type from what I am reading. They are still hoping to get types, but its not a single type.. its 3 sizes, and multiple coat types.. so not exactly phenotypically set.

 

[Saeleofu]

its 3 sizes, and multiple coat types

I'm going to go re-read a little later this evening and see. It's been a while, so maybe things have changed or I'm mis-remembering. But, poodles come in 3 sizes, and they're a breed. Collies and doxies and a bunch of other breeds come in multiple coat types, and they're a breed.

 

[Dekka]

They have more variability than most breeds. I doubt they would be accepted by the AKC as there are too many variabilities. The reason Parsons are 12-15 inches, is that the KC wouldn't accept a hight variation of 10-15.

I don't see a much stability of their body structure either. So you have very big range of size, colours, types and coats... doesn't sound like much a breed to me...

http://www.laa.org.au/downloads_09/general/ALA 2009 grading scheme amended Sep 2009.pdf

Note: At this time AKC
requires 3 generations of ALF to ALF, using this generational count

as they haven't managed this by their standards yet I would say they are having a hard time making a type.

 

[Laurelin]

Most doodle proponents I've met are very much NOT in favor of them becoming a breed, not even the ones that are more responsible and health test and all that. 2nd gen doodles are not very predictable especially in regards to coat type. So the common procedure is to breed a F1 (first gen poodle x lab) back to a poodle. Most breeders don't go much further than that although there have been attempts to standardize doodles. I was also under the impression that so far it has been near impossible to standardize labradoodles.

 

[corgipower]

I doubt they would be accepted by the AKC as there are too many variabilities.

So?
That doesn't mean they can't be a breed. Just that they can't be an AKC breed.


ALAA Labradoodle History

To continue the efforts of Wally Conron, breeders in Australia began breeding Labradoodles determined to produce litters with consistent conformation, coat type, and temperament. During the 90's, a number of other dog breeds were bred into the Labradoodle lines to assist in this effort. Most often the English Cocker Spaniel and American Cocker Spaniel were the breeds used, however, it is reported that a few other dog breeds were also introduced into certain lines. DNA evidence of these dog breeds are still found in a few lines today, while others were bred out and not re-introduced into any other blood lines.

Currently the Australian Labradoodle is considered to be a cross between the Poodle, Cocker Spaniel and Labrador Retriever, while the Labradoodle is a cross between the Labrador Retriever and Poodle only and is primarily first or second generation.

Organizations have been formed to protect the continued development of the Australian Labradoodle lines, and guidelines for the continued introduction of English and American Cocker Spaniel are followed carefully. Infusion committees also discuss the merits of other possible dog breeds being allowed careful introduction into select lines. It is an exciting time to be involved in the development of this breed.

For more information about our organizations development, and other organizations in existence that are caretakers of the Australian Labradoodle, please visit our ALAA History page.

 

[lizzybeth727]

So the common procedure is to breed a F1 (first gen poodle x lab) back to a poodle.

A labradoodledoodle. I know of service dog organizations that are breeding these. Most of them look like pure standard poodles, but I don't know if they have the lab temperment.

 

[Dekka]

I believe he gave up as he couldn't solidify type back in the 70's. So if you can't get a stable type in 40 years its not likely going to happen. How can it be a breed if you can't solidify a genotype in 40 years.

I brought up the AKC thing as they mention it on their site. If that is their goal then they are trying to breed true as that is one of the main prereqs for a breed. They want to but can't.

Poodle, Cocker Spaniel and Labrador Retriever

well actually:

1.

Poodle (Standard, Miniature, Toy)
2.

Labrador Retriever
3.

Irish Water Spaniel
4.

Curly Coat Retriever
5.

American Cocker Spaniel
6.

English Cocker Spaniel

I am not against multiple breeds. But they don't seem to be doing it very well as in nearly 1/2 a century they are still breeding back to poodles.

 

[Laurelin]

A labradoodledoodle. I know of service dog organizations that are breeding these. Most of them look like pure standard poodles, but I don't know if they have the lab temperment.

I honestly cannot tell the F1B labradoodles from standard poodles at all.

 

[smeagle]

The Australian labradoodles are not breeding to type or with any real predictability. They are still fumbling around with it and in-fighting amongst themselves. They've been trying to produce a reliable dog since the 70s and they still haven't achieved it.

They will never get breed recognition with the name labradoodle anyway.

 

[Renee750il]

They breed true, they just don't necessarily have the qualities a guide dog needs to have.

To be fair, that's true of every breed that's used as a service breed.

 

[dr2little]

With the number of Labradoodles coming through my classes (and yes, I have one from Australia who is now 7), I can tell you that they are breeding true. Not the backyard bred ones, which I see but not nearly as much lately, but the ones from multi-gen breedings. They do have different sizes and coat types can vary for sure but so can many other "true" breeds.

I see more "purchased" backyard bred purebred dogs than mixed breeds, usually from a rescue, come through Calgary classes without a doubt.

I can't imagine that Calgary is that much different from many other parts of either Canada or the U.S., I'm always a little surprised at how many people say that they don't see the temp. structure and overall clearly distinct qualities of the multi-gen Labradoodle to Labradoodle breeding.

I understand the argument, don't agree wth it as I'm not a huge fan of what has happened to many of our lovely purebred dogs, but I do understand the point.

Personally, I find this dogs qualities to be not only unique in many ways but very desirable.

For me it comes down to this -

1) How many of the purebred dogs on this forum, or anywhere, are doing the job that they were originally bred to do?

2) All things being equal, good breeding practices followed to the letter, is breeding a dog to simply be a good family companion enough?

 

[MafiaPrincess]

No one is arguing if they can be a family companion.

If the ALA says they aren't breeding true and they are breeding back to poodles regularly.. How can you say they are breeding true? Seems all they are looking for is 3 gens of them breeding true to get AKC recognition and they aren't even there in 40 years.

 

[dr2little]

I don't know of one Labradoodle breeder who is breeding back to poodles. Not one...

 

[Dekka]

I think I linked to the ALA website. Are you talking about a different club?

Just going by what the parent club in Australia is saying.

Also, what does doing what its bred for have anything to do with breeding true. I have no issues with them being bred ethically, anymore than I have an issue with Lurchers being bred ethically. But its not a breed until you can breed them together and get more reliably of the same quality.

 

[ravennr]

Perhaps, maybe we could say that simply what the ALA WANTS to be considered breeding true, and what has been shown elsewhere to be bred true, are two different things?

Clearly, based on what's there, the ALA isn't happy right now with what they're getting. It's not what they seem to be looking for. But if over here on our side, people are breeding differently, and getting what THEY are looking for, and breeding true, are those not two different scenarios?

Just a thought?

 

[Dekka]

ok on 'our side' from the ALAA

The Infusion Committee will approve or deny Cockapoos based on all information presented. The Infusion Committee will approve or deny requests to breed Cockapoo x Labradoodle infusion litters based on the qualities of the two dogs presented. It is the goal of the ALAA to only allow breedings to take place that will bring the best qualities to the Australian Labradoodle lines.

How is this going to help define a type? But you are accepting cockapoos? really now it doesn't sound like they have a type hammered out yet...