Testicles

[Laurelin]

Either way it's not a trait that you'd want in a line. A show dog you can't show with one testicle, it's a DQ, but I doubt a working breeder would want that kind of health risk prevalent in their line.

I don't think you can use working as an excuse to ignore a genetic defect like that.... As OC has mentioned as has Lynn it's not just a 'pretty dog' fault or anything like that. It's relatively common and is genetically linked and can cause tumors.

I honestly can't think of any kind of breeding for any type of work or venue where you'd want to breed a cryptorchid. If the testicle is retained, it's safest for him to go ahead and have it removed and have him neutered.

Just my 2 cents again as usual.

 

[showdawgz]

There are plenty of quality working dogs that have both testicles. There is no excuse to breed a dog that is cryptorchid.

I have one male, AMAZING working dog. Incredible confidence, focus, drive and fearless. He had an undescendent testicle, I waited until he was 15 months, NO sign at all, and got him nuetered (also removing the undescendent testicle). He would have been a great asset to my breeding program, but its unethical and wrong. Working dog or not!

 

[Paige]

Does it hinder a dog's working ability though? I am not even going to pretend I understand what goes into breeding because honestly I don't even have the slightest clue. I know where my boys came from they bred for working ability above all else. Health was obviously a huge factor too because no matter how good of a working dog it is it won't last if it isn't healthy but what was top on their list was producing dogs for their farm that were what Border Collies should be. So, if working ability is what this breed is bred for, is the testicle not dropping that big of a concern?

(I ask because I am curious)

 

[bubbatd]

The not dropping is a medical concern ..... the breeding with the history is a genetic concern . I never bred a dog that MIGHT pass anything on .

 

[SizzleDog]

Does it hinder a dog's working ability though?

It does when the dog dies from a cancerous growth in its abdomen... dead (or crippled) dogs can't work.

 

[Bahamutt99]

It may not hinder the dog's working ability, but I'm sure the cancer that comes along with the retained testicle would probably cause some problems. Even if the dog was a fabulous working dog after having that testicle removed, if you bred him, you'd intentionally be creating more dogs who are automatically going to need surgery just to stay healthy. That's not ethical, IMO.

 

[Lizmo]

No, I don't think it is that big of a deal. I mean, obviously not, he's ranked 8th in the country, is competing on the US team in Wales (I think?), and took 11th in the national finals last year (and has competed almost every year and ranked well).

I trust my breeder. They know alot about the breed, are honest people, run a well respected breeding kennel by most all border collie people, and have some of the top ranked dogs in the country. And, their dogs are well kept, sold to good people, and the breeder (and his wife) do a very good job of placing the right dog in the right home.

I've looked at his line a hundred times. He come from very, very good dogs. His grandmother's sire's parents produced the breeder's best (and first) bitch, who is still going strong at almost 15.


Anywhoo, I'm out. It isn't worth the arguing.

 

[Paige]

That's what I thought. I read the pages previous and I get what you guys are saying now.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't think it would change an individual's working ability at all. A cryptorchid could work perfectly fine. The concern for me would be the likelihood of passing it on to offspring. Also as someone already mentioned (I forgot who) the testicle is kept at a different temperature since it's up in the abdomen. this can cause tumors and cancer and other problems. Dogs would have to have it removed to be healthy.

I guess I just don't see why to breed one no matter what. I mean, it's not going to be good for your bloodline.

I haven't had a working bred dog since I was young, but I'd think it'd be the same. Ethically any breeder should be looking to produce healthy animals with sound temperaments. I don't know how you can argue that regardless of what you are breeding for. Like any known genetic defect it should be taken into account when breeding. If you know of genetic defects in your bloodline, then why would you continue breeding dogs known to have it? It's genetic so it can pass on to his sons.

As I've said, 8-10 weeks it should usually be dropped. I'd wait and see, but I'd definitely not consider breeding a dog that has an undescended testicle. It's just not worth it regardless of the rest of the dog's attributes. I think Lynn explained why the best...

I just don't think its ethical.

ETA: Ah... I replied when everyone else did.

 

[huskyloves]

Does it hinder a dog's working ability though?

Nope, at least with none of my working dogs. If a working breed of dog is bred right in the first place, with the correct drives, neutering won't change those drives. My GSD made Sch. I and II intact, and got his Sch. III not so intact . And all of my Huskies could pull with the best of them and all were neutered, most of them done pediatrically too.

 

[adojrts]

No, I don't think it is that big of a deal. I mean, obviously not, he's ranked 8th in the country, is competing on the US team in Wales (I think?), and took 11th in the national finals last year (and has competed almost every year and ranked well).

I trust my breeder. They know alot about the breed, are honest people, run a well respected breeding kennel by most all border collie people, and have some of the top ranked dogs in the country. And, their dogs are well kept, sold to good people, and the breeder (and his wife) do a very good job of placing the right dog in the right home.

I've looked at his line a hundred times. He come from very, very good dogs. His grandmother's sire's parents produced the breeder's best (and first) bitch, who is still going strong at almost 15.

Well I am glad that your breeder isn't in my breed of choice of WORKING dogs.
And its is also not allowed in my breed to surgerically alter a dog in anyway, which means that even removing the undecending testis isn't allow. And it isn't allowed to stop A LIFE THREATENING INHERITED PROBLEM from continuing.............

 

[Bahamutt99]

Sorry, I have to step away before my snarkiness runs rampant, but I must say one last thing. If the line we're talking about is so spectacular, aren't there any two-testicled dogs to keep it going? I mean the statement about a 15-year-old bitch doing great is really beside the point, as that bitch isn't going to be retaining any testicles. I am all for trusting one's breeder, but knowingly breeding dogs with that kind of flaw is just ridiculous. Its not like knowingly breeding a dog with a slightly off bite, or a non-preferred color. This is a big deal, and without surgical intervention, most assuredly impacts the quality of a dog's life.

 

[Laurelin]

Not exactly the same but I know of a really well known breeder with show papillons. One of the top dogs of this kennel (and we're talking top top of the notch as far as show dogs go) was not tested for patellar luxation. Well this dog produced the only papillons I have ever heard of with patellar problems. I mean, they were okay and are doing well now (well the one I know) but he needed surgery on both knees. But the sire won... and some of the unaffected kids won... so that's alright, right?

I don't think you'd find that ethical at all would you? This I see as much the same thing.

Regardless of how good a dog is show/working/whatever how can you argue for breeding a dog that is known to carry or have a problem like that?

It's not like the dog's earset is slightly off or the markings aren't flashy enough for the show ring. It's much different.

 

[Lizmo]

But if the testicle that hasn't dropped is removed, how is that causing cancer? From what your saying, if the testicle is left in the body it could cause cancer, but if it's removed, it's fine?

*Putting aside all "it isn't ethic" stuff for this qestion*

 

[noludoru]

Blaze's undescended testicle will be in my thoughts. Teehee. ; D

Bandit's was playing hide and go seek for awhile. One hadn't fully dropped. They are both there now as happy as can be.

It's better than Beau, lmao. Every time we take Beau to the vet for a checkup they comment on how er... well endowed he is.

^ROFL!!!

Liz, while I'm not particularly thrilled with your breeder for breeding a dog with an undescended testicle - if you have to surgically fix something in a dog it ought to be a gigantic red flag that it needs to be fixed, to me - Middie's didn't fully descend until almost a year and a half. Then the poor guy became a member of the pancake club, and the only real difference it made wa sin how much his neuter cost.

 

[Renee750il]

Jenn, once the testicles are removed the threat of testicular cancer is gone too

 

[ACooper]

But if the testicle that hasn't dropped is removed, how is that causing cancer? From what your saying, if the testicle is left in the body it could cause cancer, but if it's removed, it's fine?

*Putting aside all "it isn't ethic" stuff for this qestion*

Yes Liz, that is exactly what they are saying. Once it's removed the risk is gone.

Their biggest complaint seems to be passing this on to the next generation *knowing* that the offspring will need the same surgery to be healthy.


I think we all get the picture by now, what is left to say?

 

[noludoru]

But if the testicle that hasn't dropped is removed, how is that causing cancer? From what your saying, if the testicle is left in the body it could cause cancer, but if it's removed, it's fine?

*Putting aside all "it isn't ethic" stuff for this qestion*

It doesn't. But it will sire dogs who are going to need surgery to fix their testicular issues. And what if someone who buys one of those dogs can't afford to fix it, or the surgery goes wrong, or they didn't know about it, etc, and the dog gets cancer? It's preventable.

ETA: By the way, what dos the rest of the working BC community say about this..?

 

[OutlineACDs]

But if the testicle that hasn't dropped is removed, how is that causing cancer? From what your saying, if the testicle is left in the body it could cause cancer, but if it's removed, it's fine?

*Putting aside all "it isn't ethic" stuff for this qestion*

Because he still carries the gene for undescended testicles. It may not be causing HIM a problem, but what about the next generation? Just one more reason I personally feel that even working dogs should be shown in conformation at least a little bit. In conformation, a dog has to have two testicles of relatively the same size and shape or else they are disqualified.

 

[Lizmo]

Jenn, once the testicles are removed the threat of testicular cancer is gone too

Good. That easies my mind, if I neuter him. I would hope that the risk would be gone.

ETA: By the way, what dos the rest of the working BC community say about this..?

What I said earlier. They respect and wouldn't have a problem buying from my breeder.

Actually, there was a thread on them just a little while ago on a BC forum (basically all the BC people -most all the top notch people- are on their). Turned out just like I exspected, almost every poster defended them And I wouldn't exspect anything less.