Slap me... Used an e-collar :O

[Roxy's CD]

Sam, you didn't understand my post.

I stated that the thread was about the use of an e-collar, this thread has NOTHING to do with allowing my dog off leash.

What angered me was the comment that I should not allow her offleash.

Read the whole post if you plan on commenting on it at all please.

I am in no way lashing out, or angered that people on this board are disappointed or worried about this decision. But it's my decision and unlike anyone else, I know my dog. I made a decision, (whether it be good or bad time will tell) based on the knowledge of the equipement used, facts on how it's been used and the outcomes, the temperment of my own dog, deducing certain reasons for those behaviours etc.

While I do respect many people on this board's opinions, what it comes down to is ME and MY DOG. We spend everyday together. Literally. I know her inside and out. I know her and she knows me. There have been times where ROxy has been furious with a situation and not during one SFE have I seen that in her. Yes, she did show her teeth.

Knowing ROxy, I know that she uses her teeth ALL THE TIME.

She uses them as a warning for Hades. She uses them to "scare" people into doing something she wants. In play with me she uses them often.

Now the comment about using them to "scare" people into doing what she wants. It's hard to explain, but if you understand you know that it can be interpereted as dominant behaviour but neccesarily aggressive. Those are two different things. She'll speak, or bark to get your attention, so you'll make eye contact, and then show how scary and mean she is.

Dogs do it a lot when they're excited. Especially Roxy.

 

[Doberluv]

Well, it looks like you're satisfied with the ceasation of the lip curl. She looks better, is not snarling. She must be all happy now. And you're happy.That's what counts. Best wishes in the future. I really truly hope she gets better and better.

I guess there's nothing more for me to add to these threads so I'm gonna scoot off and see who else might like a response to their threads. There are a few who have been neglected and ignored for long enough. And I want to see some pictures that I've been meaning to get to for days.

 

[doberkim]

agreed, doberluv.

and for the record, i think its extremely dangerous to allow this dog off leash, even if she has never had a problem before. the fact that you acknowledge she is human aggressive, and yet let her off leash every single day, to me is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[sam]

Sam, you didn't understand my post.

I stated that the thread was about the use of an e-collar, this thread has NOTHING to do with allowing my dog off leash.

What angered me was the comment that I should not allow her offleash.

Read the whole post if you plan on commenting on it at all please.

I am in no way lashing out, or angered that people on this board are disappointed or worried about this decision. But it's my decision and unlike anyone else, I know my dog. I made a decision, (whether it be good or bad time will tell) based on the knowledge of the equipement used, facts on how it's been used and the outcomes, the temperment of my own dog, deducing certain reasons for those behaviours etc.

While I do respect many people on this board's opinions, what it comes down to is ME and MY DOG. We spend everyday together. Literally. I know her inside and out. I know her and she knows me. There have been times where ROxy has been furious with a situation and not during one SFE have I seen that in her. Yes, she did show her teeth.

Knowing ROxy, I know that she uses her teeth ALL THE TIME.

She uses them as a warning for Hades. She uses them to "scare" people into doing something she wants. In play with me she uses them often.

Now the comment about using them to "scare" people into doing what she wants. It's hard to explain, but if you understand you know that it can be interpereted as dominant behaviour but neccesarily aggressive. Those are two different things. She'll speak, or bark to get your attention, so you'll make eye contact, and then show how scary and mean she is.

Dogs do it a lot when they're excited. Especially Roxy.

I read the whole post. I've read every word of both threads on this topic multiple times. I agree with the poster you were so incensed at who stated that a human aggressive dog should not be allowed off leash where there are any other humans. To me that is common sense.

When someone says something you don't like or don't agree with you think we just don't understand or listen to you. We just don't understand about Roxy etc. I've read every word and I know why you say you are doing what you are doing. You've stated it many times now. I just don't think it's a good idea and I feel that it's *you* who doesn't understand.

I've replied to this at least 3-4 times. Melanie put my thoughts into words better than I could in this thread. Many others have made good points that I agree with. You've spoken at length with Dr2. No matter what anyone says it seems you are determined to go down this path so I'm done. Good luck to you and Roxy. I don't sit in judgement on you. I know better than to do that. I made many mistakes with my first dog who had some issues that I handled very poorly. I started out using methods that I wish now I hadn't. If anyone would have told me I was doing things wrong back then I would have said they didn't understand, my dog is different etc So I don't judge you but I also don't want to frustrate myself wasting my time and my energy on a lost cause pleading and explaining with someone who won't listen and doesn't get it.
I hope you'll read through these threads with an open mind and I hope you'll think really hard about what you're doing with this dog and what the long term effects might be. I sincerely hope you will read some good books about aggression that were mentioned earlier on. I wish you could find better help than what you've got for a trainer right now. You say the only other option is worse. How about doing some reading?
I'll be thinking about you next weekend at the Emma Parsons aggression seminar in Calgary . I sure wish you and Roxy could be there.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

By human agressive do you mean that she will run up to anyone and attack? Or that she doesnt have a problem growling at humans telling them to back off? I know Caza is trustworthy off leash and doesnt even think about people, he might jump on you but thats about it. The only problem he has is when someone corrects him ( a harsh correction like scruffing him), other than that he's cool. Very indeferrent to people. Not agressive unless he feels I or he threatened. I think I have an idea of what Roxy's temperament is like, but I just want to know if she's the dog that will lunge at you just for the hell of it. Just asking,

 

[Roxy's CD]

GSD- You've made a great point. Roxy does not run up and attack people. She could care less for people on our walks. She very likely could be fine with people, it's the fact that I know how quickly her mood can change that I don't allow any interaction with complete strangers. Roxy does become uncomfortable, meaning she doesn't like it, if a complete strangers is very close to us, touching me or her, but even still if she's in a sit stay at my side she will not break it.

I label her HA, like you said, because I know that she wouldn't hold back a growl or snap if she was clearly uncomfortable with a stranger. On our walks she is also a different dog. She's happy to be outside and doesn't have that same territorial protectiveness that she would at our house or in the vehicle. She's a very different dog in very different situations.

She is not HA, like a dog that will bark relentlessly, growl and snarl at anyone. Nothing of the sort. (Although she is territorial, and does bark relentlessly at people that pass by the house, not really related, very calm dogs bark at people passing by their home) I call her HA, because if she was provoked enough I do believe she would bite. Therefore I do not allow her to be in those kinds of situations period. She probably would not bite a stranger if for whatever reasons she ignored my recall. But it's very possible that she could get pushy and demand some sort of attention.

Hades is not like that. Hades would NEVER bite, even if provoked. I call ROxy HA, because she would. She is not a crazed human aggressive dog. She doesn't try to attack ANYONE at ANYTIME.

Doberkim, to be quite honest, I've come to the conclusion, that regardless of what I say or do your going to be rude to me. So, as I used to respect your opinions and thought that they came from someone who was not biased, it's quite clear that due to recent arguements regardless of the thread's topic, you will find some way to be rude to me.

Everything according to you with Roxy, is an accident waiting to happen. I really think your the kind of person that would wish that upon me just so you could say "I told you so."

As for the comment about the title, people work and train their dogs for titles. A title would mean that much more to me, for the same reason you all think that I could not attain it. The fact that we worked as hard as we did to get a place where many "normal" or "average" dogs could never be. If we don't make it there, we still have worked hard and made a lot of progress. But if we can train to make it there, have a solid SFE that's been proofed many times with strangers, I don't see why it's any different than a DA dog in a trial.

I know many DA dogs at our school that trial, one has attained it's UD, the statistics being for every 1000 dogs that get a CD, 5 will get a UD. So, from my understanding, training with a DA dog, to get it comfortable and used to a situation like a group down stay, is dangerous?

Sam, I will at least thank you for your honesty, and somewhat understanding.

I've come to realize, that even if this does work, for all of the "open minded" people on this board, none of you will admit it. You seem to forget that there are a plethora of methods, none of which that will work for EVERY dog. EVERY dog in existence is different from another.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

GSD- You've made a great point. Roxy does not run up and attack people. She could care less for people on our walks. She very likely could be fine with people, it's the fact that I know how quickly her mood can change that I don't allow any interaction with complete strangers. Roxy does become uncomfortable, meaning she doesn't like it, if a complete strangers is very close to us, touching me or her, but even still if she's in a sit stay at my side she will not break it.

I label her HA, like you said, because I know that she wouldn't hold back a growl or snap if she was clearly uncomfortable with a stranger. On our walks she is also a different dog. She's happy to be outside and doesn't have that same territorial protectiveness that she would at our house or in the vehicle. She's a very different dog in very different situations.

She is not HA, like a dog that will bark relentlessly, growl and snarl at anyone. Nothing of the sort. (Although she is territorial, and does bark relentlessly at people that pass by the house, not really related, very calm dogs bark at people passing by their home) I call her HA, because if she was provoked enough I do believe she would bite. Therefore I do not allow her to be in those kinds of situations period. She probably would not bite a stranger if for whatever reasons she ignored my recall. But it's very possible that she could get pushy and demand some sort of attention.

Hades is not like that. Hades would NEVER bite, even if provoked. I call ROxy HA, because she would. She is not a crazed human aggressive dog. She doesn't try to attack ANYONE at ANYTIME.

I think all dog will bite if they were provoked (even Hades), but some will just go straight into "fight" drive without even considering to "flight". Alot of soft temperament dogs will try to escape and only bite as a last resort. And some dogs (like ours) will get with you in a minute. They arent going to sit back and let someone abuse them while they try and run. Some dogs just have that "fight" mentality.

I've come to realize, that even if this does work, for all of the "open minded" people on this board, none of you will admit it. You seem to forget that there are a plethora of methods, none of which that will work for EVERY dog. EVERY dog in existence is different from another.

I couldnt agree more. People always say I am WRONG, which simply is not true. There is not right and wrong, just information you choose to use for your INDIVIDUAL dog. All my dogs are NOT trained the same, but I observe and take out what I need from a training program, and use it. Dont worry Roxy, I will be proud and happy for you when you get your titles, I have no doubt that you will get through this, and find your OWN way of training your dog. Good luck!!!

 

[elegy]

She is not HA, like a dog that will bark relentlessly, growl and snarl at anyone.

to be honest a dog who is so clear about communicating its discomfort is *less* of a bite risk. they show you that they're uncomfortable and upset in pretty clear ways that cause people to back off. a dog who does not give warning or who has been TRAINED to not give warning when she is uncomfortable is a lot more likely to be pushed into biting because people are less likely to read more subtle signals.

which is a big part of why what you're doing with the SFE is so dangerous.

But if we can train to make it there, have a solid SFE that's been proofed many times with strangers, I don't see why it's any different than a DA dog in a trial.

the difference is in the method of training and in the fact that a human comes into DIRECT CONTACT with your dog. yes there is the group stay, but a dog aggressive dog doesn't have to stand still and let another dog come up and touch it.

i wouldn't want a dog-aggro dog trained to not aggress by force and punishment in the ring either.

So, from my understanding, training with a DA dog, to get it comfortable and used to a situation like a group down stay, is dangerous?

false comparison. see above.

I've come to realize, that even if this does work, for all of the "open minded" people on this board, none of you will admit it. You seem to forget that there are a plethora of methods, none of which that will work for EVERY dog. EVERY dog in existence is different from another.

nowhere have i seen people say there is only one method. nowhere.

i'm certainly not a pure positive trainer. heck, doberkim has even *used* an ecollar on her own dogs.

i have seen a lot of concerned people who think you're doing your dog a huge disservice and making her more risky than less. and i see you all defense and no willingness to hear people or learn from their experiences. i'm not even sure why you're posting this, to be honest, since you clearly don't want anybody's opinions unless they agree with yours.

i also see from what you've posted that you don't have a very good grasp of what positive training entails. i think it's not that positive training does not work with roxy. i think that it's that you're not doing it right. and the sad part is you're not willing to *learn* to do it right and give it the time it takes to work.

 

[Roxy's CD]

The ridiculously "positive" method posted about the recall was an example to help explain how she takes advantage of those situations.

I don't see how what we did was wrong and NOT positive. Everyone here, other than RD, posted a "positive" method that was very similar or exactly the same as we had been doing.

Making the SFE a fun experience. All of the proposed methods involved food, and feeding it to her while she was being touched, not necessarily examined but touched, even for the briefest moment. That is exactly what we had done for 9 months. The other methods proposed, involving my trainer touching her in other situations, made no sense, because she has no issue with that at all.

I have said many times I am willing. RD's method was the one that we used on Thursday, a few minor changes made by trainer like allowing her to glance over to see what my trainer was doing.

Elegy, you want me to appear as though I'm just purely defensive and not willing for other methods, but my posts show the exact opposite. I admit I may sound defensive, but those are usually when I'm replying to posts that only accuse and blame and don't offer advice. For those that had offered logical advice, I've taken it, or already done that and it didn't work.

The majority of people that have posted advice either just recently or months prior to this, (this has been something I've been posting about for literally months) have posted advice, involving food. A positive reinforcement. It was used the same way that many of the people that you agree with on the subject have suggested.

If that's the excuse you want to use, that I didn't use the positive methods properly so that you can believe that it works ALL the time. Than do so. Maybe in 2 years it may have started to work. I don't know that. But in 9 months, there was no improvement whatsoever, using a method that many here have advised me to use.

Now that I take a second glance at it, for those that suggested that method, perhaps it's just easier to say I did it wrong than to admit that it didn't work. *shrugs*

Elegy, despite our differences, you are wrong about my willingness to accept a different method. You trully are. I wish you all could just realize, how much I value Roxy and Is' bond and how I wouldn't risk it for something so trivial. To me, what I have done did not do that. I wish you all would realize that if a proposed method that I haven't tried is put to the table I would try it. (although perhaps not right away, RD's method makes a lot of sense to me and I want to give that method a few weeks before I add anything on top of it)

I wish, and I do know that many of you, feel that at least *I* truly believe that I am doing something in the best interests for both of us. And realize that this is not a naive decision, it's been thought out, scrutinized and than looked at some more. And even though this decision has been thought over, that does not close my eyes to other ideas.

RD did not agree with the method chosen. She did not take a rude tone and she offered great advice with an explanation. I understand it and was never gung ho about the the use of the e-collar, so since I understand the concept thoroughly, have not tried anything similar to the method, it's something I'm giving a go at.

 

[Roxy's CD]

And as for those that just pointed the finger and accused and "warned"... leave it be, why bother attitude..

Deep down, truly I just feel that it's a horrible attitude to have and I hope you don't ever have that attitude with a difficult dog. From my view point, where a number of very bad behaviours have been managed through obedience work with Roxy, it's a very negative attitude, that to be honest, I want nothing to do with. If I would've had that attitude all along Roxy would be long dead.

 

[doberkim]

i'm certainly not a pure positive trainer. heck, doberkim has even *used* an ecollar on her own dogs.

yes i have used an e-collar and still have one - and *Gasp* i used it on my HA dog that sent someone to the hospital - but not for anything to do with aggression. he was proofed on his recalls with it, and i would do it again if needed.

he learned his SFE the same way he learned all his other competition stuff - through clicker training.


roxy - so what happens if your dog is rEALLY uncomfortable one day in the ring at a show - shes TERRIFIED of the person coming up to her and doesnt want that person anywhere near her.

what is she supposed to do to let everyone know that? shes been punished for lifting a lip, shes been reprimanded for breaking a stand. what else is there for her to do but snap? all her other outlets are gone. THAT is my point.

 

[Roxy's CD]

I understand that Kim, I really do.

First off, if for any event Roxy seems terrified, we exit the ring and quit. Period. If we ever get to trials, it's supposed to be fun, not terrifying.

But MY point is, before we even consider entering in a trial she is better than 100% with my trainer, and been proofed uncountable times by complete strangers. As I've mentioned, there are plenty of people who are willing to offer up their hands as they call like to call it. But even this would only be done after she is more than comfortable with my trainer. If that day ever comes. If it doesn't, than as I've stated before, we drop it, find something else to do that she likes.

My point is, is by the time we go into the ring, it's been proofed SOOO many times that she isn't nervous about it anymore. It's been done quadruple more times than a dog who isn't uncomfortable. It's been done and done and done and exhausted so there is no worry about her freaking out in the ring on a judge.

I know my dog. I'm not going to lie to myself. If after weeks of using this new method she is still licking her lips and uncomfortable obviously trialing is out of the question. There are many signals she gives, and I want to see if any of those signals begin to cease in a few weeks. Simply her eyes tell you she is uncomfortable. A few times this week I didn't see it in her eyes, and her ears perked forward, when normally they are back. A few times her tail was not tucked up under her belly. All of these signs are signs that she's uncomfortable. Not simply the teeth, the teeth was Roxy's last resort.

She was not corrected last lesson for showing her teeth or anything at all for that matter. This is the method that I am going to continue to use. In almost a year, it's the one that's allowed us to reward *heavily* which is what I feel is most important. Roxy does understand, when after a great go-out she gets more treats than when she creeps forward. She learns very quickly. And this new method does not involve correction of any sort.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I havent read through all suggestions, but one that might satisfy everyone is maybe have people approach her and feed her. No emotion whatsoever. Like put her in a sit-stay, and have people come up, offer her a treat, and walk away. No interaction at all. Thats what we do in training. My Sch training is a firm believer in marking and praising all good behavior. He has the owner leave the dog, and about every 30 secs he has someone walk up and reward (by giving a treat) for the stay. It wont change her personality, but for a milli-second she'll think the judge is coming to give her a piece of food (with no interaction), and by the time she has a chance to think about what is really happening the exam will be over. All you have to do is figure out a way to occupy her mind for 5 seconds, give her an illusion of what is really happening. Go over someone walking around her and giving her food, without touching and mimick similar movements of a judge without making contact and rewarding her for it. Just a suggestion. I am NOT questioning you, whatsoever.

 

[Roxy's CD]

GSD- That was the original plan. To occupy with the "watch me" while the exam was going on, her obedience is so strong that was our hope. But now my trainer feels it would be best to go what undoubetly (LOL@Myself sp) is the longer route, but what she feels is the best route, with just getting her comfortable with it period.

Roxy is funny. My trainer just talks about her more like a person, she says it makes it easier. Sometimes, you just don't want people near you, or touching you. There are some people that never want to be touched, ESPECIALLY by strangers. Roxy doesn't mind being touched *sometimes* by strangers, providing they aren't drunk and rough with her.

With aquaintances of mine, she's more than happy sometimes to go into a very submissive position and get a belly rub, BUT... BIG BUT if they stop rubbing, she gets angry and she does make a low rumbling noise, the "PET ME NOW OR ELSE!" A very demanding behaviour, not as much HA, but demanding and she'll use her teeth to "persuade" you.

It's something about the particular position in the SFE that Roxy is uncomfortable with. If she feels like it, she'll take food from strangers, and we've actually made progress at the vets and at our last visit for her skin infection she actually took a cookie from her.

It's a very funny predicament. A dog that sometimes, doesn't mind at all to be touched by strangers, sometimes she actually DEMANDS attention from them. And in this one position, she is very uncomfortable being touched by my trainer whom she's known for months. *shakes head*

 

[elegy]

First off, if for any event Roxy seems terrified, we exit the ring and quit. Period. If we ever get to trials, it's supposed to be fun, not terrifying.

why should trials be fun but not training?

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

GSD- That was the original plan. To occupy with the "watch me" while the exam was going on, her obedience is so strong that was our hope. But now my trainer feels it would be best to go what undoubetly (LOL@Myself sp) is the longer route, but what she feels is the best route, with just getting her comfortable with it period.

Roxy is funny. My trainer just talks about her more like a person, she says it makes it easier. Sometimes, you just don't want people near you, or touching you. There are some people that never want to be touched, ESPECIALLY by strangers. Roxy doesn't mind being touched *sometimes* by strangers, providing they aren't drunk and rough with her.

With aquaintances of mine, she's more than happy sometimes to go into a very submissive position and get a belly rub, BUT... BIG BUT if they stop rubbing, she gets angry and she does make a low rumbling noise, the "PET ME NOW OR ELSE!" A very demanding behaviour, not as much HA, but demanding and she'll use her teeth to "persuade" you.

It's something about the particular position in the SFE that Roxy is uncomfortable with. If she feels like it, she'll take food from strangers, and we've actually made progress at the vets and at our last visit for her skin infection she actually took a cookie from her.

It's a very funny predicament. A dog that sometimes, doesn't mind at all to be touched by strangers, sometimes she actually DEMANDS attention from them. And in this one position, she is very uncomfortable being touched by my trainer whom she's known for months. *shakes head*

LOL, I know what you mean. SOmetimes Caza will "attack" you for attention. I mean he will jump, bark, and is very pushy, but at the same times doesnt like people touching him.

I do not mean by ocuppying to use a "watch me" comand. I mean have random people just feed her. So that she wont become too defensive when someone approaches her. Just have people walk around her (at a safe distance) and give her food (in a NON-threatening way, no direct eye-contact ect). Maybe you could stand there petting her calmly on her side, while the people feed her and say "thats a good girl, its ok" in a calm tone. If you tried that already and it doesnt work, keep looking until you find something that gives you the results that you want. And if its the e-collar then so-be-it.

 

[elegy]

I don't see how what we did was wrong and NOT positive. Everyone here, other than RD, posted a "positive" method that was very similar or exactly the same as we had been doing.

you're right. it was positive. positive punishment.

i really just don't understand why pairing a bad thing with a behavior she's already uncomfortable with is supposed to make things better. i mean, it's pretty much cut and dried classical conditioning isn't it? you're just teaching her to be even more stressed and uncomfortable than she already is. you're just teaching her to not show it.

 

[RD]

Something to keep in mind, Cadence, as I can see you do seem to regard Roxy as a "human in a fur suit" - don't take offense, please! I'm not likening you to the people who treat their dogs like babies. I'm just trying to explain that perhaps you are the one complicating things. Dogs are rather simple - Roxy doesn't have a plethora of emotions behind her aggression. She simply wants to increase the distance between herself and the person that's making her uncomfortable. When the person backs away, she got what she wanted. Negative reinforcement. Every time those people backed off, Roxy's behavior was strengthened. How many times has she growled at a person until they stepped away? See what i mean?

I don't know Roxy, but honestly I don't think she's as complex as you're making her sound. Her behavior is a product of her inherited temperament and her history of reinforcement. That in itself can be a bit complex, but when you drag things like emotion into it, it becomes a pain in the butt to decipher her issues. Often times, simple works in dog training, even with these complex dogs. If you can understand her enough to figure out exactly what she wants at any given moment, you can turn that into a way to reinforce good behavior. Now, if you look at her growling at a person and think "she wants to bite them", you've got it wrong. Sure, she may bite, but the motive for ALL aggression (whether it be appropriate protectiveness or a lip curl during the SFE) is to get something to back off or leave entirely.

I honestly don't know what else to tell you, Cadence. Roxy is your dog and what path you take with training is entirely up to you. I honestly wish you nothing but the best of luck, I hope Roxy's issues continue to improve.

Oh, and for the record, I am in partial agreement with Elegy and Doberkim about Roxy being offlead. Dogs are far from predictable, and even ones that are typically friendly and well mannered can surprise you. Dakota did, shocked the hell out of me to see my normally very friendly, social dog going apeshit on another dog. It never happened before and it hasn't happened again, but it doesn't change the fact that no dog is 100% perfect and trustworthy. All it takes is one incident, one little spark going off in the brain of a HA dog and you've got yourself a major problem. Especially considering where you live, and BSL. I wouldn't want to risk it, personally.

 

[doberkim]

I understand that Kim, I really do.

First off, if for any event Roxy seems terrified, we exit the ring and quit. Period. If we ever get to trials, it's supposed to be fun, not terrifying.

training is supposed to be fun, too.

But MY point is, before we even consider entering in a trial she is better than 100% with my trainer, and been proofed uncountable times by complete strangers. ..
My point is, is by the time we go into the ring, it's been proofed SOOO many times that she isn't nervous about it anymore. It's been done quadruple more times than a dog who isn't uncomfortable. It's been done and done and done and exhausted so there is no worry about her freaking out in the ring on a judge.

except you have no idea how different it is to take a dog into the ring versus just training at home. i had 200's going into every trial working at home (ok, maybe high 190s) with my dog, and we still NQ'd both times in the ring beacuse of nerves and how different it is. Has Roxy ever been to a dog show? Have you? Have you shown? You have no idea how much communication can break down (especially in novice owners and novice dogs) - and when communication breaks down, THATS where Roxy becomes a danger to anyone near her.

Dogs proof all the time - I've seen dogs work 2 years towards going in the ring and still blow it.

And this new method does not involve correction of any sort.

you really think there is no correction involved with using an electronic collar in this manner? what do you think it is doing?

 

[otch1]

I know I should read previous posts, but this just caught my eye. What kind of trial or "ring" are we talking about? They're two lovely mixed breeds, and I see they're from Canada, so they're obviously not doing CKC, UKC conformation or obedience competitions. Even if you were to compete in another outlet, it takes a very long time to get a dog like this ready. You will certainly be able to curtail some of this behavior and make her a more reliable dog, but I question wrether actual competitions are a good outlet for her. What is it you want to do with her?