Slap me... Used an e-collar :O
- Thread starter Roxy's CD
- Start date
We use the e-collar two weeks ago, probably 10 times, paired with positive reinforcement.
Last week, she wore it, but she did not get zapped.
And this week, actually tonight is her group, she won't wear it at all.
RD- Your right. Roxy isn't as complex as I make her sound. It's like you said, the *ways* that she's discovered work for her got reinforced by HER, not by me. So it would appear that these behaviours have been worsened and strengethened when people did what she wanted. I was trying to get at that earlier it just didn't come out right.
What I mean, in this thread at least, when I say she's complex, is that the purely positive method, involving food and touch to make the SFE fun, was that she took advantage of it, and immediately realized that she could get food out of the deal but as soon as the food was gone the teeth came out. This behaviour in no way got better after months and months. Everytime, same thing, no food, here's my teeth.
If my trainer tried to feed one piece of food, while patting her the whole time, wait one count, then feed her another piece, Roxy would show her teeth during that one count. (We were trying to drag out the food so we literally weren't feeding her the WHOLE time she was touching her)
Roxy is still uncomfortable yes. But I do think after the two times we've been able to reward heavily for a few good SFE's, she's figured out the desired behaviour. Up until now, she had NO IDEA what we wanted when we did this excercise, all she knew was that she was uncomfortable.
So now, she may still be uncomfortable, BUT she now understands what WE want. And my trainer has loosened some of the ideas so Roxy can "reassure" herself by watching my trainer, and then when she feels comfortable again, she can look back to me to let me know.
Roxy pretends to be aloof a lot during training, but she clearly pays attention. Sometimes I think she's staring off into space and not paying attention and she'll perform the excercise perfectly. So she really does like to please, she really does like to work. Even if sometimes to look at her, you think she's bored or uninterested. (sometimes she probably is bored, lol)
So yes, she'll get comfortable eventually hopefully, but at least now, I'm pretty sure she understands what I want. The more SFE's we do, I'm sure she'll get more comfortable, at least with my trainer, she already has. If she'll ever allow a complete stranger to examine her, I don't know, it's a long ways down the road.
But I do have confidence in Roxy's ability to understand and be obedient.
As for her being offlead. If Roxy's a risk offlead, as I said *every* dog is a risk.
I've seen her too many times, without hesitation comply with a command whilst in the presence of a heavy distraction to take away her pleasure in her off lead walks. It would almost be like reprimanding her, when she's done nothing wrong.
More times than I can count on my hand have we encountered people walkers or dog and people paired walkers, even with other dogs offleash, and both of my dogs ignored the other dogs and responded to my calls.
I guess it hasn't been made clear that Roxy doesn't attack people. And while she's on her walks she's a completely different dog. She would rather run right by a lone walker to smell that tree over there. She has no interest in other people on her walks. It's hard to explain.
But not allowing her offlead anymore because she doesn't like to be touched in certain areas by people is not anywhere in my mind.
RD- If I remember the thread correctly Dakota was *working* when that incident happened. I think the consensus was that when certain breeds are working, their jobs involve protecting the herd as well. Any working dog for that matter does not like to be interrupted.
Being on walks and working IMO are two very different things, when a dog will have two VERY different mentalities.
Yes, Roxy is a mix, she is registered with NAMBR. If she can ever compete in obedience, as doberkim said though, I would rather compete in CKC events. NAMBRs' trials in my area are few and far between. Their trials are the exact same as a CKC event, all of the titles are the same and just as hard to achieve though.
Last week, she wore it, but she did not get zapped.
And this week, actually tonight is her group, she won't wear it at all.
RD- Your right. Roxy isn't as complex as I make her sound. It's like you said, the *ways* that she's discovered work for her got reinforced by HER, not by me. So it would appear that these behaviours have been worsened and strengethened when people did what she wanted. I was trying to get at that earlier it just didn't come out right.
What I mean, in this thread at least, when I say she's complex, is that the purely positive method, involving food and touch to make the SFE fun, was that she took advantage of it, and immediately realized that she could get food out of the deal but as soon as the food was gone the teeth came out. This behaviour in no way got better after months and months. Everytime, same thing, no food, here's my teeth.
If my trainer tried to feed one piece of food, while patting her the whole time, wait one count, then feed her another piece, Roxy would show her teeth during that one count. (We were trying to drag out the food so we literally weren't feeding her the WHOLE time she was touching her)
Roxy is still uncomfortable yes. But I do think after the two times we've been able to reward heavily for a few good SFE's, she's figured out the desired behaviour. Up until now, she had NO IDEA what we wanted when we did this excercise, all she knew was that she was uncomfortable.
So now, she may still be uncomfortable, BUT she now understands what WE want. And my trainer has loosened some of the ideas so Roxy can "reassure" herself by watching my trainer, and then when she feels comfortable again, she can look back to me to let me know.
Roxy pretends to be aloof a lot during training, but she clearly pays attention. Sometimes I think she's staring off into space and not paying attention and she'll perform the excercise perfectly. So she really does like to please, she really does like to work. Even if sometimes to look at her, you think she's bored or uninterested. (sometimes she probably is bored, lol)
So yes, she'll get comfortable eventually hopefully, but at least now, I'm pretty sure she understands what I want. The more SFE's we do, I'm sure she'll get more comfortable, at least with my trainer, she already has. If she'll ever allow a complete stranger to examine her, I don't know, it's a long ways down the road.
But I do have confidence in Roxy's ability to understand and be obedient.
As for her being offlead. If Roxy's a risk offlead, as I said *every* dog is a risk.
I've seen her too many times, without hesitation comply with a command whilst in the presence of a heavy distraction to take away her pleasure in her off lead walks. It would almost be like reprimanding her, when she's done nothing wrong.
More times than I can count on my hand have we encountered people walkers or dog and people paired walkers, even with other dogs offleash, and both of my dogs ignored the other dogs and responded to my calls.
I guess it hasn't been made clear that Roxy doesn't attack people. And while she's on her walks she's a completely different dog. She would rather run right by a lone walker to smell that tree over there. She has no interest in other people on her walks. It's hard to explain.
But not allowing her offlead anymore because she doesn't like to be touched in certain areas by people is not anywhere in my mind.
RD- If I remember the thread correctly Dakota was *working* when that incident happened. I think the consensus was that when certain breeds are working, their jobs involve protecting the herd as well. Any working dog for that matter does not like to be interrupted.
Being on walks and working IMO are two very different things, when a dog will have two VERY different mentalities.
Yes, Roxy is a mix, she is registered with NAMBR. If she can ever compete in obedience, as doberkim said though, I would rather compete in CKC events. NAMBRs' trials in my area are few and far between. Their trials are the exact same as a CKC event, all of the titles are the same and just as hard to achieve though.
Just curious Cadence,
Have you thought about agility for her? Or flyball?
I dont know much about these events I wonder if that is something you can do with her?
I am all pro E-collar. I have had very positive results with them. This thread has got me to thinking.
Would I force a dog who had no interest in hunting do competitions or even go hunting with me? I dont think I would. Althought reasoning would be a bit different. If they have NO drive and No desire and I have exhausted all efforts trying to help them get the drive and desire I would wash that dog out of my program. I was a bit worried about Red. With patience and time he grew to have high drive and desire.
I havent had a dog yet who doesnt have drive and desire in them.
I guess what I am trying to say is maybe showing isnt the competition for Roxy. Maybe she would feel more confident doing another type of competition?
Have you thought about agility for her? Or flyball?
I dont know much about these events I wonder if that is something you can do with her?
I am all pro E-collar. I have had very positive results with them. This thread has got me to thinking.
Would I force a dog who had no interest in hunting do competitions or even go hunting with me? I dont think I would. Althought reasoning would be a bit different. If they have NO drive and No desire and I have exhausted all efforts trying to help them get the drive and desire I would wash that dog out of my program. I was a bit worried about Red. With patience and time he grew to have high drive and desire.
I havent had a dog yet who doesnt have drive and desire in them.
I guess what I am trying to say is maybe showing isnt the competition for Roxy. Maybe she would feel more confident doing another type of competition?
Kris, I've thought pretty hard about that too. We did try to do some agility for a few weeks, actually about 2 months. And she did not like it at all.
She enjoys jumping, and she was OK with the obstacles, it's just she's a very clingy dog. We were at the point where we were beginning to send her to obstacles, and while she understood, many times she'd stop and look back either for reassurance that she was doing the right thing or wondering if I was going to come along! LOL
So I ruled out agility. She does do very well with obedience work, and most of it she does enjoy. Some of it she's excellent at but doesn't enjoy it as much as other things. She loves her go outs, retrieves, hand signal work amongst other things though.
I really wanted to get involved with tracking, but the only way to do that around here is by joining a SchH club. Something I'm sure Roxy would excell at, but I'm not quite sure if it's something either of us are ready for.
As I said before though, she does enjoy the obedience work, this is the one event that we just haven't gotten through to her yet. I'm on my way out right now for her group lesson, but we'll see how she does.
I'm not going to say that it's going to work, but at the same time I'm not going to rule it out either. I've given it nothing but time so far, and I know that's a main component so I'm not going to cut it out yet. Before I make any decisions as to whether she'll compete, or whether it's working 100% we're going to have to spend a lot of time on it.
She enjoys jumping, and she was OK with the obstacles, it's just she's a very clingy dog. We were at the point where we were beginning to send her to obstacles, and while she understood, many times she'd stop and look back either for reassurance that she was doing the right thing or wondering if I was going to come along! LOL
So I ruled out agility. She does do very well with obedience work, and most of it she does enjoy. Some of it she's excellent at but doesn't enjoy it as much as other things. She loves her go outs, retrieves, hand signal work amongst other things though.
I really wanted to get involved with tracking, but the only way to do that around here is by joining a SchH club. Something I'm sure Roxy would excell at, but I'm not quite sure if it's something either of us are ready for.
As I said before though, she does enjoy the obedience work, this is the one event that we just haven't gotten through to her yet. I'm on my way out right now for her group lesson, but we'll see how she does.
I'm not going to say that it's going to work, but at the same time I'm not going to rule it out either. I've given it nothing but time so far, and I know that's a main component so I'm not going to cut it out yet. Before I make any decisions as to whether she'll compete, or whether it's working 100% we're going to have to spend a lot of time on it.
How is she as a pal? Does she like to go for walks in the woods, just you and her and Hades....jumping over an occasional log or stream, sniffing behind rocks, scampering up and down banks? How does she like working with just you, trying new tricks and skills in private without a lot of people around? Would she excell at those things? They're worthy things, you know. If she can hike as well as my Dobe, my new girl and my two Chihuahuas, I'll send you a blue ribbon even. LOL. I get so much satisfaction from being with my dogs and teaching them things. I don't need other peoples' applause or give me some thing which tells me they're good dogs. I already know they're good dogs....at least to me. And that's all that matters when it comes down to it, isn't it?
If you're dead set on showing, why not wait till you get a dog who is into it and likes it? Why force and struggle with a dog who clearly isn't into "public" life and "politics?" LOL. Dogs don't live long enough to waste their time trying to make them like something that just isn't natural for them, to try and make them into something they're not. Gee wiz! Why not just let her be a dog?
I somehow think you'll have a rebuttal for that too.
opcorn:
If you're dead set on showing, why not wait till you get a dog who is into it and likes it? Why force and struggle with a dog who clearly isn't into "public" life and "politics?" LOL. Dogs don't live long enough to waste their time trying to make them like something that just isn't natural for them, to try and make them into something they're not. Gee wiz! Why not just let her be a dog?
I somehow think you'll have a rebuttal for that too.
opcorn:
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As the proud owner of the Queen of Clingy Dogs, if this was the only issue you had, it may be worth giving it some more time. Meg's preference is to actually be in physical contact with me at all times, but she is getting much better as we go on with our agility classes. Tonight was a bit of a break-through for us, as she would come out of a tunnel and fly down a series of three jumps with me still at the tunnel. Mind you, they weren't the three jumps we were aiming for, but it still gave me a thrill to see my timid little velcro dog flying happily ahead, then racing back at the end to celebrate. Slowly, slowly the confidence grows.
Hodges Badge Company. Way cheaper and easier than actually training and competing! We used to joke that we were all going to stop horse showing and just buy ourselves pretty ribbons. $0.49 each is a lot cheaper than a couple thousand a month
Hodges Badge Company. Way cheaper and easier than actually training and competing! We used to joke that we were all going to stop horse showing and just buy ourselves pretty ribbons. $0.49 each is a lot cheaper than a couple thousand a month
LOL@Doberluv, you know I'll have one Ha ha!
Actually I just got back from my marathon of dog school, it's been three days in a row, yes I have no life, ROFL.
Roxy is a great pal. She *loves* running through the trails, our "little furry family" as I like to call it, no children, just me, my bf and our two fur kids, ROFL.
HOw she did the past two days is a new thread I'm going to post about though
I'm not dead set on showing, I would *like* to. I guess what I feel is, if this is something we can work through, like we have with so many issues, and she's comfortable and stable it's something to work towards. If it comes across that there is no way we can work towards that goal than of course we'll find other things to do!
It's not like I'm winging it, letting strangers grope her up and examine her. Right now, it's my trainer, "examining" her in a much less evading manner. Taking one step towards her and stopping until she's comfortable... No more e-collar either. We used it two weeks ago, she wore it last week, and at her group last night, and just now at her last private she didn't wear it at all. A few times she still licked her nose and a few times she didn't at all.
Roxy and Hades are great pals. With Roxy, such a clever dog that likes to learn new tricks and literally show off, (like she did last night) I feel that if we can work through the SFE than start really working for a title, it would be more than amazing. To train hard for the title and add on top of that all of the obstacles we had to overcome.
Having well trained, obedient, gorgeous, full of personality dogs is something I take a lot of pride in, both me and my bf. Both of us work hard to keep them that way, with time and energy and grooming and nuturing those behaviours that we see everyday and love so much. The way Roxy sings when she's dying to wrestle, the way Hades cuddles up right into your armpit after a long walk... LOL
If Roxy and I can never compete, that does not in any way make me feel different about her. *I* know how clever and what an awesome dog she is.
Ha ha!Actually I just got back from my marathon of dog school, it's been three days in a row, yes I have no life, ROFL.
Roxy is a great pal. She *loves* running through the trails, our "little furry family" as I like to call it, no children, just me, my bf and our two fur kids, ROFL.
HOw she did the past two days is a new thread I'm going to post about though
I'm not dead set on showing, I would *like* to. I guess what I feel is, if this is something we can work through, like we have with so many issues, and she's comfortable and stable it's something to work towards. If it comes across that there is no way we can work towards that goal than of course we'll find other things to do!
It's not like I'm winging it, letting strangers grope her up and examine her. Right now, it's my trainer, "examining" her in a much less evading manner. Taking one step towards her and stopping until she's comfortable... No more e-collar either. We used it two weeks ago, she wore it last week, and at her group last night, and just now at her last private she didn't wear it at all. A few times she still licked her nose and a few times she didn't at all.
Roxy and Hades are great pals. With Roxy, such a clever dog that likes to learn new tricks and literally show off, (like she did last night) I feel that if we can work through the SFE than start really working for a title, it would be more than amazing. To train hard for the title and add on top of that all of the obstacles we had to overcome.
Having well trained, obedient, gorgeous, full of personality dogs is something I take a lot of pride in, both me and my bf. Both of us work hard to keep them that way, with time and energy and grooming and nuturing those behaviours that we see everyday and love so much. The way Roxy sings when she's dying to wrestle, the way Hades cuddles up right into your armpit after a long walk... LOL
If Roxy and I can never compete, that does not in any way make me feel different about her. *I* know how clever and what an awesome dog she is.
Okay I just have to pick at this one thing . . . .
Why would she wait for Roxy to exhibit the desired behavior (acting comfortable) to move in on her and cause more discomfort? If I were your trainer I'd be doing the opposite - stop moving towards her and possibly walk away as soon as she relaxes. If she's still tense, slowly move towards her in a non-threatening manner (looking to the side and easing up to her as opposed to walking directly at her and making eye contact)
By doing this, I can see her inadvertently conditioning Roxy to display signs of discomfort or insecurity just to get her to stop approaching. That's not gonna fly in the ring, either - judges don't walk several steps, then stop. They walk directly to the dog, give only a brief introduction and then touch. Roxy needs to be COMFORTABLE, or this intimidating approach could set her off.
Your trainer is doing it backwards, IMO. Both of you really need to work on getting Roxy to feel comfortable and secure with this exercise, then work on slowly building a positive association with being approached, so she begins to look forward to her "exam". If your trainer keeps doing what she is doing now - essentially applying punishment as soon as Roxy does the "relaxed" SFE - Roxy will never view this exercise differently.
Why would she wait for Roxy to exhibit the desired behavior (acting comfortable) to move in on her and cause more discomfort? If I were your trainer I'd be doing the opposite - stop moving towards her and possibly walk away as soon as she relaxes. If she's still tense, slowly move towards her in a non-threatening manner (looking to the side and easing up to her as opposed to walking directly at her and making eye contact)
By doing this, I can see her inadvertently conditioning Roxy to display signs of discomfort or insecurity just to get her to stop approaching. That's not gonna fly in the ring, either - judges don't walk several steps, then stop. They walk directly to the dog, give only a brief introduction and then touch. Roxy needs to be COMFORTABLE, or this intimidating approach could set her off.
Your trainer is doing it backwards, IMO. Both of you really need to work on getting Roxy to feel comfortable and secure with this exercise, then work on slowly building a positive association with being approached, so she begins to look forward to her "exam". If your trainer keeps doing what she is doing now - essentially applying punishment as soon as Roxy does the "relaxed" SFE - Roxy will never view this exercise differently.
Doberluv, I think it is too. And Cadence, I'm not trying to be mean or pick at your efforts so please don't be upset with me. I just really don't think this is going to work in the long run and I want to see both of you succeed. I know you are a dedicated trainer and will give Roxy all the time she needs, but all the time in the world won't make a difference if you and your trainer keep doing things backwards.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do, either. Just bringing it to your attention in case you didn't notice what your trainer was really doing . . .
I hope it all works out for you.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do, either. Just bringing it to your attention in case you didn't notice what your trainer was really doing . . .
I hope it all works out for you.
Me too Cadence. (love that name) I don't want to spoil your enthusiasm. I want you to succeed and want Roxy to be happy and comfortable, not bothered by the things she's bothered by. I just have a bad feeling about this trainer, how things have been handled and don't want you to have false hopes...where she looks like she's OK but she's not really...then something happens and it's disastersville. The odds of something bad happening later are fairly high. Maybe nothing bad will happen. It's just that the manner in which this was handled considerably reduces the odds to be in your favor.