Slap me... Used an e-collar :O

Roxy's CD

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#1
Yes, you heard me. *shakes head in shame* I'm sorry Colleen :(

I have an e-collar, have had for a few weeks, that has been charged and sitting on my table unused.

I posted earlier about Roxy's first private for a few weeks now, and I just got back.

As many of you know, IMO, I've exhausted many methods to rid Roxy of her... well, snarkiness when it comes to the stand for examination. She is saucy, and does not like to be touched UNLESS it's on her own terms.

I'm sick of training, for the day that will never come. So today, under the supervision of my trainer, the e-collar went on.

I've used it on myself, and 2 is a "shock". No pun intended ;)

So, the highest I will go is a Level 1.

To make a long story short, IT WORKED. I'm not totally proud that I had to resort to such methods, but it worked.

How we did it:

We stood as normal, I went out to the end of my leash. In my happy tone, I spoke continuously stressing mainly on, "Watch me Roxy!", mixed with some "Good girls" and "good watch me's".

As my trainer approached, ROxy would normally look over and raise her lip in warning. ZAP. "Watch me Roxy!". Good girl!.

We did three sessions stretched out over the whole hour, and the last session before we left.... *faints* Was PERFECT!

She got "zapped" or as the hardcore e-collar people call it, "Stimulated" maybe 10 times in total. The last session not once. My trainer thoroughly examined her as if in a trial and NOT AN EFFIN FLINCH!

She kept eye contact the WHOLE time with me! She got 2 hot dogs at the end!

So, I know some of you will be disappointed with me, and I still appreciate all of you who have given me advice.

But today, I am as happy as a kitten with a ball of yarn! We can FINALLY start really training!

And just so you know, the most Roxy did when she got zapped was a twitch of the ear. Not once did she jump up like many do, or shy, or submiss. She actually ignored it a few times. Cheeky bitch! ROFL

So nothing can dim my spirits today! My trainer's working on getting her ILP and soon, hopefully in a few weeks we'll be on the road working for her CD! Whoooppppppeeeeeeeeeee!
 

elegy

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#2
i'm sorry, but i think you made a huge huge mistake. using punishment to "get rid of" human aggression is just.... wow. i hope this doesn't come back to bite you in a big and ugly way.

i don't object to e-collars for other things, but for aggression??! no way. not in a hundred million years.
 

J's crew

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I would also never use an e collar when dealing with aggression. She may have reacted favorably because it is new and something she is not used to. Alot of times though an e collar can increase aggression. I have never heard of it decreasing aggression.
 

Gempress

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I'm glad it worked. But still, I would be VERY careful about Roxy's touch adversion.

It's not recommended to use adversive methods to address aggression. It doesn't teach the dog that there's nothing to be angry about. It teaches the dog to supress its reaction.

Basically, Roxy is still just as mad as before about being touched. She just knows not to show it. Think about it this way: you were NOT correcting the actual aggression. Dogs don't think that abstractly. You were giving the correction for the growling/lip curling warning.

If she didn't really intend to bite, just to warn, then you probably have fixed the problem. But if she was serious about being ready to bite---then it's possible she may now do so without any warning. Please be careful.
 

Doberluv

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#5
Basically, Roxy is still just as mad as before about being touched. She just knows not to show it.
Sorry Roxy, but I agree. It is quite well established by most behaviorists and people who have studied this sort of thing that you never treat aggression with aggression....with something like an e-collar. It stopped the behavior for now because the dog learned how to avoid further pain or discomfort. She did not learn to become comfortable with people handling or examining her. It's about avoidance of the shock vs. dealing with the underlying cause of her psychological perception of people examining her.
 

sam

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So now she will associate a person coming to examine her with getting a shock plus whatever it was she didn't like about it before. :confused: The shock will have surpressed her reaction for now..... I'd see that as a major strategic error. I agree with the others and hope this doesn't come back to bite you - literally-- although maybe then your trainer would think twice before doing it to another dog.
 

Doberluv

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#7
I was just coming back to edit my post...to add what you just said Sam, that the dog will associate other people with pain, fear and this will exasperate what she already felt about people coming close and/or examing her. The feelings are still there but the reaction is supressed, probably temporarily. It's the same principle Cesar Milan uses so often, supressing behavior, associating things the dog is afraid of with a rotten thing....and not making the "bad" thing into a "good" thing.
 

sam

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#8
suppressing the growl is obviously a dangerous thing to do and now the dog may start to feel nervous before people touch her, it may start when they approach. Also stressful on a dog to get 10-12 shocks and work for an hour on this. I would run not walk away from that trainer. You may be impatient with training for this problem but aggression isn't a quick fix situation. I would suggest that maybe if this has been the trainer you've used all along, that that may be part of the problem. Nobody who understands aggression would take this approach.
I would think that the dog may also feel more defensive because it's fears have been realised. You have confirmed for him that bad things happen when people touch you or approach you and you LET it happen and expected the dog to just take it and focus on you-- how can that be anything but a bad thing? You are the leader and the number 1 job of the leader is to protect - when you fall short on that the dog has every reason to be more defensive and take on that role of keeping bad things or people away. This is why treating aggression using pain/startle tends to cause the problem to escalate over time.
 
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Roxy's CD

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#9
Firstly, thank you all for your input. I knew most of it would be negative, and I've got tough skin, so I was already ready for it.

Sam, never once has she been corrected for growling. But the thing is, she does not growl. THe warning she gives is immediately, straight to a lip curl. A nasty snarl. There is no growl to be corrected.

I suppose I didn't make it clear, although I know the principal is still the same.

Correcting aggression with physical punishment is a bad idea.

This is where I'm at. I understand that positive methods will take longer. If elegy, sam, doberluv or gemp wouldn't mind perhaps some very specific methods that they would use.

Some info first:

* I am ONLY working on her lip curl for stand for examination. I am NOT expecting her to EVER enjoy being touched by strangers. I am only hoping that I can focus on the "watch me" command enough, and enforce it, so that when it comes time for stand for examination, I use the command "watch me" and her attention is based solely on me. Never losing eye contact.

As stated on another thread, Roxy will ALWAYS be human aggressive. I am only hoping to control this well enough, in a closed environment, so a judge can examine her. I'm not hoping for a friendly dog that runs up to strangers and enjoys a pat. That will never happen.

I want to be able to control this "sauciness" with a command that's been enforced to the point where she will NOT break it no matter what.

Also, just some reasoning behind this decision...

Roxy is quite friendly with my trainer. More than friendly. Today after a few weeks of missed lessons, when walking in the door she immediately ran up and jumped, licking her, tail wagging. Obviously quite glad to see her.

The reason I made this decision, is it's become pain stakingly clear that Roxy doesn't mind physical interaction with "strangers" (she's known my trainer for almost a year) as long as she feels like it, it's on her terms.

This mentality is more than frusterating. It's ONLY with the stand for exam. that she acts this way towards my trainer. And it's clear, it's because there is no choice. It doesn't matter if she wants to be touched or not. This is why Roxy shows this type of human aggression for stand for exam.

So, regarding simply, the stand for examination, what tactics would you use to work on this problem?

Remembering, that Roxy has no problems with my trainer touching her UNLESS of course it's the stand for exam.

Edit:

Sam- We didn't do this for a whole hour! We did it three times, separated by other things, heel in figure eight, flat retrieve/high, go outs, hand signal work etc. We did three, 2 minute sessions throughout the whole hour and a half. Now I may have made a stupid decision, but I'm not THAT stupid.
 

Roxy's CD

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#10
Regarding the idea, well not idea the FACT that correcting her for snarling/showing her teeth will only teach her to suppress those feelings. As well the fact that she may think the correction is for the person approaching her, and learn to fear the person approaching her more.

I more than agree and understand.

That's why my hope is not based on ridding her of this unreasonable fear. My hope is to have perfect timing, and to correct for the lost eye contact, NOT the snarling. Does that make sense to anyone at all?

It did appear to work, how I know?

I believe, almost 100% that ROxy understood the correction for breaking her watch me because; by the third "zap", ROxy would maintain eye contact, and her lip would still lift, yes. The touches at first, were very brief and immediately followed by a reward from my trainer as she drew her hand away, and then me for a good "watch me".

This technique originated from a supposed well known e-collar trainer, Fred Hassen (sp?) but I've toned it down quite a bit.

My trainer's hope is by correcting for the lost eye contact, she can touch her more in this position. Eventually showing Roxy, that there is nothing to fear with the stand for examination. She hopes to desensitize her to the whole situation. Standing and ignoring the stranger, my trainer was also rewarding her with pieces of hot dog.

I just wanted to add that I do understand everything everyone has mentioned regarding treating the aggression with aversives, but this is not my goal at all. My goal is reinforce the watch me with the collar, therefore ultimately ceasing the behaviours that would follow her breaking eye contact with me.

I hope I explained well. LOL
 

sam

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#12
but she DOES have something to fear in the presence of the person-- being touched which she apparently doesn't like /isn't comfortable with and NOW being SHOCKED. And you the person she's supposed to be able to trust in her mind is allowing these bad things to happen to her will only undermine your relationship with her.

The problem with this method of training is exactly what has happened it "works" in the interim --in that the dog has stopped growling or lip curling and is now standing still and quiet while being touched. So people think it's a helpful thing to do. That doesn't justify it or mean it's going to work in solving the problem, quite the opposite.You now have a dog who doesn't like to be touched even more and may not give you a warning. If she wants to stop you she's going to need to go further and be more proactive- ie lunge and bite at the person approaching before the touching and shocking can occur.

You also say the dog is rewarded as your trainer stops touching her/takes her hand away which makes no sense as well. Bad, scary person leaves and good things happen. If you eventually get to the point where your dog is comfortable with people touching her you want to reward while they touch not when they stop.

Please, please please rethink what you're doing. Stop correcting this dog, stop causing it any pain or unpleasantness as any part of training or around people. Get a trainer who understands how to treat aggression before you have a bigger problem on your hands.

Read some books like "Click to calm" by Emma Parsons. "How to right a dog gone wrong" and "Bringing light to Shadow" by Pam Dennison.

As Carrie said, what you want to show this dog is that people approaching = good things happen for dogs. Dogs don't generalise well, so the same baby steps need to happen with all different people in all different places and situations before asking for more. Progress very gradually until the people can touch the dog without the dog tensing at all let alone lip curling and growling , starting with familiar people. Keeping the dog BELOW threshold where it will lipcurl or growl is the key NOT correcting it (punishing the dog for doing it) Rushing this never helps; it will only make the process take longer or in the end or make it worse.

Where is DR2?
 

doberkim

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#13
your dog is uncomfortable and showing it the only way she can, and now she is being corrected for it. all for the sake of showing in obedience -

i pray to god she doesnt bite someone in the ring, or become another statistic. a dog that is corrected for pre-bite buildup becomes a truly dangerous dog - i know, i lived with the result of that for 5 years.

shes warning you that she doesnt like something - and youre getting rid of that warning. you havent made her any more comfortable in that situation, instead, you are just telling her that she has to do it "or else" - and if the situation is pushed and one day she decides she REALLY doesnt like it, shes just going to skip her warning and bite.

and for the record, i have no problems with e-collars - i have one, have trained with one. but i would NEVER dream of using it for dealing with human aggression for something as silly as a SFE that isn't even necessary.

i pray to god that roxy doesn't become a statistic.
 

Roxy's CD

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#14
Colleen is nowhere to be found, because we've discussed this before. She is totally against, and we both know it. I am more than sure that Colleen's already seen this and shaken her head in disgust, BUT if she really wanted to help, she would've moved in with me to help ;) LOL I've got a spare bedroom and will throw away the collar if you move in with me Colleen! I promise!

I know dr2little's stance on this Sam, I am more than aware than many knowledgeable people on this board's stance.

I understand you obviously don't agree with this Sam, but you haven't commented on the fact that she is not getting corrected for growling. My focus is to correct her for breaking the command watch me.

Now the comment about keeping her below the threshold of where she will react... We're talking now ;)

I MUST ALWAYS keep Roxy below that threshold. She is and always will be human aggressive. My goal in life with Roxy, is avoiding interaction with strangers, people that Roxy just doesn't like and if we do have to interact, Roxy has now learned to stay in heel positition. Which she will do unless she's provoked. Ex) Someone speaking to her, touching her, getting in her or my space etc.

We have worked long and hard to get to this point. And we've come a very, very long way.

Yes, in Roxy's life, my first option is to avoid these things, and in the circumstances where they cannot be avoided, I use other commands she knows to get her used to the situations.

Ex) Roxy would lunge, barking and snarling at ANYONE who approached me, to talk, an old friend whatever. We desensitized her to this with people she knew first, than people she saw in class every week. We did an exercise where you walked up to another dog/person handler, sat your dog in heel position, use the watch me command, shook the other person's hand, said hello whatever, than continued on your way.

I do not agree that rewarding after a good job done, is a bad thing like you've mentioned. With many issues or basic obedience skills you reward AFTER a job well done. This concept is already understood by ROxy. I do a good job, I get a treat.

Sam, to point out that you have NOT provided me with a positive method as an option. Have you ever had a human aggressive dog? And if so, how did you "fix" the problem?

I am more than willing to ideas.

I have tried positive methods, but there is no rewarding the good if there is no good. If that makes sense.

I can't reward ROxy for a good stand for exam. if she's never done one! Today she has, she's done a few and she got heavily rewarded.

I've tried, slowly, under HER terms, getting my trainer to stroke her and pat her. Didn't make much sense, because she's fine with my trainer patting her, UNLESS we're doing a stand for examination.

That's my main reasons for resorting to this horrible, looked down upon, negative method.

What you need to truly understand, is Roxy does not hate EVERYONE. She enjoys being patted by people. She does have a fear of stand for exam. why, I may never know. But by enforcing the watch me command, we can show her that nothing bad happens. By desensitizing her to the situation, (which has worked before) we may hope to solve the problem.

That is my goal.
 

sam

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#15
so she likes interacting with your trainer and only does this during the stand for exam? And what's been done to deal with it leading up to this?

If she's fine in all other situations what makes you say "she is human aggressive and always will be?"
If that's true why are you trying to pit her in the ring? Is is worth it to potentially make this dog truly dangerous and incredibly unhappy to compete in obedience???

What would I do/ I would do as I have written educate myself on the topic by reading the best info out there. Get a GOOD trainer who understands how to deal with thie problem. Teach the dog that a human approaching is a good thing in every situation even in a stand and gradually progress to where someone can touch her in a stand for exam. I would keep her well below the level where I think she will agress ie lipcurl/ snarl.


Imagine there is a situation in your life where someone has to touch you in a way that makes you VERY uncomfortable. Imagine you are forced to endure it and when you try to protest this touching that you hate and/ or are afraid of you get a painful sensation. Imagine that your husband or parenst are purposely subjecting you to this even though they know you find it to be an awful experience.They force you to endure it and ounsh you with pain for protesting- seriously, imagine it.

have you read this article? it's not about aggression towards humans per se but it makes the point I'm trying to make far bnetter than I can.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html
 

Roxy's CD

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#16
Edit:
Doberkim: Okay, now that's what I was looking for, at least some comment on the technique being used, and you've labelled it, "pre-bite build up". At least someone has read my previous posts, regarding the fact that I am NOT correcting her for the aggression, the actual act of a lip curl, my goal is to correct for breaking the command of "watch me". Which we do already use as a command. We are now incorporating this into the stand for exam.

You make a good point, although your wording is harsh. "All for the sake of showing in obedience." If anyone does get bit over this, which of course I'm sure would be avoided and than a kick in the ars, it would be my trainer. I don't expect myself to allow it to go that far, and of course, the e-collar will be long phased out before showing.

What would you do?

Doesn't it bother anyone, that she's fine in other situations it's JUST the stand for exam?

Whatever you want to label it, I call it sauciness. Because that is what bothers me. If Roxy NEVER wanted to be touched by my trainer. I would leave it at that. But this is not the case.
 

sam

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#17
we are posting at the same time. I didn't have a chance to read everythihng you have written. Going back to readthrough now.
 

Roxy's CD

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Okay, yes, now you've got it. She interacts with my trainer perfectly well, much better than any other "stranger". Anyone other than me, my bf, niece and newphew or my parents is a stranger.

It is only during the stand for exam. The only thing we've done so far, actually didn't involve any type of correction other than a verbal aversive like "wrong" or "ah ah". (You can't give a leash correction during stand for exam anyways) I would stand in the same position, my trainer would have a handful of treats in her left hand, feed her the entire time while patting her back with her right. As soon as the treats were gone the teeth came out. We've done that ever since training, which started, hmm, about 10 months ago perhaps. We did it more often starting about 3 months ago because it was clear that the few times a session wasn't working. Still isn't.

And as for competing in obedience. The only thing that requires any interaction between anyone else other than myself and my dog is the stand for exam. Roxy works just fine around other people, she's been in several sets of group lessons and handles the distractions beautifully.

There are many things that our dogs do that we don't like, and train to change. This is one of those things. Although the training method we've been using is NOT working! She takes advantage of the method and as soon as everything good in it is gone, meaning the treats she ends it.

Edit: She is fine in other situations with my trainer. I should've made that clear. I call Roxy HA, because she will show her teeth at a stranger without a thought if they do something she doesn't like. She hasn't gotten the chance to bite anyone to date, but I am more than sure that many times she would've.

We've worked hard to get her to a fork in the road, where she is manageable. In situations where we are forced to be near strangers, she sticks like glue to my side, and I'm constantly interrupting people speaking to me to reward her verbally or with a treat, if she's sat without a snarl for a minute or two. My focus is ALWAYS on her. One wrong movement and she is liable to react immediately. There is no thought process. If they yell too loud, move to fast in the wrong direction or (this sounds ridiculous but it's true) speak in the wrong tone she reacts.

If that clears it up :)
 

sam

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#19
To be quite honest I'm totally confused. So much of what you say is contadictory. ie we keep her below threshold-- um, not if you're getting a lipcurl you're not
You say she's fine except for the stand for exam but in another place you say she will always be human aggressive and barks and lunges at people and the solution is to avoid people altogther.

Honestly, If you have talked at great length with DR2 which you say you have, there won't be anything I can say that will change your mind.

All I can say is correcting the dog in a situation she is uncomfortable in, wether it is just after you say watch me or after she lip curls is still 100% the wrong approach. Please think about the situation I described , imagine being forced to let someone touch you in a way that made you upset. redathe Suzanne Clothier article.

I think what you are doing is going to make this dog worse, I think it is both cruel and dangerous. I think your trainer doesn't know what they are doing. I don't say that to be saucy as you call it. Obviously you care about your dog and are willing to do something to try to make this situation better. I hope you will do some reading-- and I don't mean by "famous e collar trainers" . Reading an entire book will be more helpful than discussing this back and forth on an internet forum. I listed some that I have read that are very well regarded.

I sincerely hope you will stop what you're doing and rethink it. You think only your trainer is at risk-- I disagree.

have I ever owned a dog aggressive to humans - NOPE - and I don't intend to. I also don't intend to represent myself as an expert here. BUt it doesn't take that much experience and education to know that what your doing is a terrible and dangerous approach even though you can't see that now.
 

Roxy's CD

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#20
To be quite honest I'm totally confused. So much of what you say is contadictory. ie we keep her below threshold-- um, not if you're getting a lipcurl you're not
You say she's fine except for the stand for exam but in another place you say she will always be human aggressive and barks and lunges at people and the solution is to avoid people altogther.
I just cleared that last contradictory statement up in my last post. I was referring to: She's fine in other situations with my trainer.

The stand for examination is where I speak about the lip curl. And yes, it does appear to be pushing her over that threshold, we are trying to desensitize her to the situation, which in any other position is not an issue.

She no longer barks and lunges at people. She USED TO. By desensitizing her to that interaction, she now sits in heel position. And I will always look at Roxy as HA, especially when in public because it's irresponsible not to.

The situation where I am pushing her threshold, is at dog school. It is a private lesson, between me, my dog and my trainer. I do not provoke any type of aggressive behaviour while in public. I know what makes ROxy tick and we avoid those situations. We do not avoid people altogether. If it's someone that Roxy doesn't know, a passerby, she remains in heel position.

If it's someone we both know, she is friendly and will get a pat. But everyone that we "know" understands, that Roxy does not like to be touched on the top of the head, and they know quite well to scratch her under the chin or to rub her belly.

I do not avoid people completely. Only in controlled environments do I allow anyone other than the names mentioned above to be close or physical with her. Do I allow strangers to pat her? Of course not. That would be asking for a dead dog.

As for reading a book, I'm all for it, but having someone that would show me the technique is the only way. I am no dog trainer, I've gone to the best in my area. My other choice, I'm more than positive would lead to Roxy biting the trainer.

If everyone in the world, knew that when a dog acted dominantly or aggressively ignorance was the problem solver, this problem could be solved quite well I'm sure.

The problem with strangers is this: ROxy does not like the top of her head to be touched. Once you begin petting, if you stop she gets angry. *where I step in, and place her in heel* BUT if everyone in the world knew, to ignore those behaviours and stop paying attention to her, this stranger problem would be mostly solved. The majority of people don't know this, they don't know the signs of when a dog is uncomfortable and they don't understand how to negatively punish her, by removing themselves from patting her.

This is no simple problem. There is no simple answer, which over the past few weeks I've come to realize. And I've made it quite clear, I'm not proud of this decision. I've been open on this forum for months with ideas, all kind of the same, some which I've tried, like mentioned and they made no sense, because the problem isn't being touched PERIOD. It's being touched during the stand for exam.

I've been open to all ideas, and this has been one of them, from people on other boards with similar issues and people at the school where I train.

I am STILL open to ideas, but none seem to cater to the fact that it's not being touched generally, it's one specific situation.
 

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