Slap me... Used an e-collar :O
- Thread starter Roxy's CD
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LOL@BB , true enough!
RD, actually my trainer looks at me, she doesn't make any eye contact. Roxy's thing is, I'll bark, or snarl or do whatever I have to do, so you'll make eye contact with me, and see how mean I am, so pfft! LOL
Kind of a, sharp bark, so she'll look than she'll show her teeth. Like, see, I'm a tough dog.
If it's something that she'll never be reliable with, when I find that out I'll drop it. But the facts are, it's worked in other areas of our life. So, if we can train to make this work safely, my thought is why not?
At first, when we were using purely positive in trying to fix this problem, I guess I was "sympathetic" towards Roxy. I had the mentality where I felt bad for making her do this because she was scared. But when I thought about it, there was no reason for fear, and she wasn't acting fearful around my trainer for anything else, it kind of annoyed me.
Just because I *Know* how Roxy is, and how testy and "snooty" she can be. This is just another obstacle that I hope to overcome with her.
I perhaps encouraged her aggressive behaviours as well, when I had the thought that she was fearful. I, the one that advises others to not use babytalk am guilty of it
Sometimes after a stand for examination I'd make up excuses for her. Like she's scared and uncomfortable and I'd cater to her. Making her think that perhaps she did have a reason to fear the SFE if mommy was soo worried after, gave me hugs and kisses and lots of treats.
It's the only thing my mind can come up with. Roxy, as I've been told by all three dog savvy people, is a product of bad genes (hence her predisposal to HA) and an environment that let those behaviours grow. Mix that in with her saucy attitude and you have a tough, BIG strong dog that's not afraid to show her teeth. Despite all the bad things about her, she enjoys obedience work and excells at it! She is in no way DA, handles distractions wonderfully, people and dogs.
But I suppose you live and you learn. Somehow we've managed to come this far without incident a mix of how much time we spend in enforcing her obedience skills and how careful I am with her. And clearly I've learned from mistakes, even though Hades personality is much different, I raised him and he turned out alright! LOL. So you live and you learn, but if this mistake I made can be changed with lots of hard work. I'm up for the challenge!
RD, actually my trainer looks at me, she doesn't make any eye contact. Roxy's thing is, I'll bark, or snarl or do whatever I have to do, so you'll make eye contact with me, and see how mean I am, so pfft! LOL
Kind of a, sharp bark, so she'll look than she'll show her teeth. Like, see, I'm a tough dog.
If it's something that she'll never be reliable with, when I find that out I'll drop it. But the facts are, it's worked in other areas of our life. So, if we can train to make this work safely, my thought is why not?
At first, when we were using purely positive in trying to fix this problem, I guess I was "sympathetic" towards Roxy. I had the mentality where I felt bad for making her do this because she was scared. But when I thought about it, there was no reason for fear, and she wasn't acting fearful around my trainer for anything else, it kind of annoyed me.
Just because I *Know* how Roxy is, and how testy and "snooty" she can be. This is just another obstacle that I hope to overcome with her.
I perhaps encouraged her aggressive behaviours as well, when I had the thought that she was fearful. I, the one that advises others to not use babytalk am guilty of it
Sometimes after a stand for examination I'd make up excuses for her. Like she's scared and uncomfortable and I'd cater to her. Making her think that perhaps she did have a reason to fear the SFE if mommy was soo worried after, gave me hugs and kisses and lots of treats.
It's the only thing my mind can come up with. Roxy, as I've been told by all three dog savvy people, is a product of bad genes (hence her predisposal to HA) and an environment that let those behaviours grow. Mix that in with her saucy attitude and you have a tough, BIG strong dog that's not afraid to show her teeth. Despite all the bad things about her, she enjoys obedience work and excells at it! She is in no way DA, handles distractions wonderfully, people and dogs.
But I suppose you live and you learn. Somehow we've managed to come this far without incident a mix of how much time we spend in enforcing her obedience skills and how careful I am with her. And clearly I've learned from mistakes, even though Hades personality is much different, I raised him and he turned out alright! LOL. So you live and you learn, but if this mistake I made can be changed with lots of hard work. I'm up for the challenge!
I am new here and haven't read Roxy's history. Even if I had I wouldn't be able to comment beyond gut feeling. I've never had a dog like Roxy.
I just wanted to say that I am totally impressed with the way this whole conversation is being conducted. Rather than descending into a my-way or the highway, name-calling free-for-all you are all putting your points over with respect and affection despite obvious strong feelings on the subject.
As a member of other forums one in particular (not dog related) also often calls for strong opinions. It seems that nowadays no conversation can go on for six or more posts without it descending into a p****** contest.
Sorry for the OT.
I just wanted to say that I am totally impressed with the way this whole conversation is being conducted. Rather than descending into a my-way or the highway, name-calling free-for-all you are all putting your points over with respect and affection despite obvious strong feelings on the subject.
As a member of other forums one in particular (not dog related) also often calls for strong opinions. It seems that nowadays no conversation can go on for six or more posts without it descending into a p****** contest.
Sorry for the OT.
Okay, these are just a few quotes I pulled out of a couple of threads. IF you were focusing on correcting her for breaking the Watch Me command, you would have introduced the e-collar BEFORE working on someone going over her. Your focus MAY have been to correct the Watch Me, BUT, in your own words, you corrected her for lifting her lip in warning.
I own an e-collar. I've used my e-collar. But I spent YEARS making the decision to buy one, and talked with several trainers that use them exclusively. E-collars are not meant to be used as correction devices - ever.
Another thing you said is that Roxy LIKES your trainer, in everything but the stand for exam. Now, this is someone she knows, someone she trusts enough to play with, and she STILL does not want to be examined by this person. How on earth do you think she will react when it truly is a stranger????
Then it needed to be broken down FURTHER. Put her in the stand/stay, go to end of leash. Have person take ONE STEP towards her - no reaction, then treat. Slowly progress to TWO STEPS - no reaction, then treat her. If you get up to four, and she lifts her lip - DISTRACT HER - do not have the person back off at the raised lip because THAT is reward enough for a dog with issues such as these. Get her distracted, possibly just by giving her another watch me command, or by returning to her, then go back to three steps, and again, work up to four, then five. Work up to the person being able to approach her all the way without a lip curl. Better yet, DON'T go out to the end of your leash - start it by working toe-to-toe, THEN put in the distance.
No, it doesn't. The stand for exam is a completely odd exercise and I don't understand why it's even done. How many true life situations will we ask our dogs to not move even one foot, move a distance away from them, then expect them to allow strangers to pet them? It is a silly exercise that I have never understood the reasoning behind.
Why on earth would you take a dog that is this reactive and an admitted bite risk to a show, let alone enter her in an obedience trial? The first thing the judge touches on the stand for exam is the top of the head.
I've just spent the better part of an hour reading this thread completely, and I'm glad I did. You are very willing to share about your dog and her issues. Thank you. This is how we all learn.
I own an e-collar. I've used my e-collar. But I spent YEARS making the decision to buy one, and talked with several trainers that use them exclusively. E-collars are not meant to be used as correction devices - ever.
Another thing you said is that Roxy LIKES your trainer, in everything but the stand for exam. Now, this is someone she knows, someone she trusts enough to play with, and she STILL does not want to be examined by this person. How on earth do you think she will react when it truly is a stranger????
Then it needed to be broken down FURTHER. Put her in the stand/stay, go to end of leash. Have person take ONE STEP towards her - no reaction, then treat. Slowly progress to TWO STEPS - no reaction, then treat her. If you get up to four, and she lifts her lip - DISTRACT HER - do not have the person back off at the raised lip because THAT is reward enough for a dog with issues such as these. Get her distracted, possibly just by giving her another watch me command, or by returning to her, then go back to three steps, and again, work up to four, then five. Work up to the person being able to approach her all the way without a lip curl. Better yet, DON'T go out to the end of your leash - start it by working toe-to-toe, THEN put in the distance.
No, it doesn't. The stand for exam is a completely odd exercise and I don't understand why it's even done. How many true life situations will we ask our dogs to not move even one foot, move a distance away from them, then expect them to allow strangers to pet them? It is a silly exercise that I have never understood the reasoning behind.
Why on earth would you take a dog that is this reactive and an admitted bite risk to a show, let alone enter her in an obedience trial? The first thing the judge touches on the stand for exam is the top of the head.
I've just spent the better part of an hour reading this thread completely, and I'm glad I did. You are very willing to share about your dog and her issues. Thank you. This is how we all learn.
If Roxy reacts this much to a trainer who she knows and likes, then imagine how she'll react to a total stranger. This will be very unfair on the stranger who ends up examining her, IMO. I would just drop it and focus on finding something Roxy can have fun at WITHOUT having a stranger examine her. Her growl is a warning, I don't think you should ignore it or discourage it.
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The best description of e-collar use I have found is at http://www.loucastle.com. He is very good at explaining it all.
As for the e-collar not being a correction, I must disagree. Many call it a "tap on the shoulder", but we all know that it is a correction. You use it when the dog does not do something right, that it already knows.
A dog that's lagging during a figure eight exercise, a lazy retrieve, a sloppy sit etc.
I don't see how anyone could say that an e-collar is not a correction. Perhaps you just feel the word is too harsh, but IMO, I'm not going to sweeten the name up any just because I've chosen this route. It is a correction, MHO of course
Spiritus, breeding Belgians, a breed I dont' know much about. But I do know from a member on this board, that it's very common for young Belgians to show "aggresivenes" during the stand for examination, growling and lip curls.
So you feel that any dog that shows these behaviours should not ever be shown?
From what I understand, over half of the Belgian population would be non-show worthy on that statement.
The reason I do believe with work that she will be reliable is the fact, on how well obedience has worked in other areas of her life. This is stretching the situation a bit, but with her age now, her obedience, focus and her respect for my commands is growing as well.
Boemy- If I would've had that attitude, ROxy would be dead right now. Allowing behaviours that CAN be changed with work and training to continue because she is "uncomfortable" or simply not happy with the situation. (Roxy is not happy with a lot of situations. Silly things, squirrels in the yard, people near the car, people by the house, Hades stealing her "spot", the water tower we have to drive past to get into town, and the list goes on, the list gets pretty ridiculous as well) Or, she would be a dog that could never leave the house, for fear of biting, anyone at anytime. As mentioned she had some pretty aggressive behaviours, that with obedience worked have ceased.
Now, if I had your attitude, chances are, somewhere along the lines, something would've happened and she would've bit someone and been put down. I'm glad that I don't have that attitude. I'm proud of myself, for taking a dog that couldn't have lived in my community continuing in the direction she was and changed her. Yes, she still has quirks, but all of which I am working on. THe old bad habits that have been replaced with good are ALWAYS reinforced. ALWAYS. Every good sit stay with a stranger nearby. Every good recall when there is a heavy distraction, such as a person on a bicycle or another dog. (FOr which she nor Hades has NEVER slipped up)
That is not a good attitude to have with a dog period. Let alone a dog with aggressive tendencies that CAN and HAVE been changed.
No one other than my stranger and close family members is examining her yet. There are other dog trainers that attend my school, that will be the next level after she's solid with my trainer.
There is a DA dog in Hades class. They do sit stays, down stays etc together. Is it irresponsible for that owner to allow this because her dog is DA?
No. We are in a safe setting, she's a responsible dog owner and if we are doing an excersise that she doesn't firmly believe her dog will behave, she sits out.
I have the same attitude. If there wasn't the people in Roxy's class that knew I could control my dog and were comfortable with us practicing the "stranger on the road" excersise, Roxy would never have gotten to where she is today.
Spiritus- The excercise you mentioned, RD, I believe has already mentioned. It is something I do plan on using combined with the watch me method.
Yes, she knows the watch me exercise and we already use it. But there is no distraction that has ever required something like the e-collar. She doesn't care for other people or dogs working in our area, so we've never had to really enforce the command. Now we do. My voice and treats were not working to keep her attention so this is the route I've thought long and hard about taking.
Spiritus, I am more than happy to share "Roxy". The things we've tried, what's worked and what hasn't. It takes a while though as you've mentioned! LOL. Hades is much easier to explain. Roxy is much more complicated. Hence why the route I've chosen I believe is not as harsh as it may seem, and why I believe eventually, it will come as normally to her as any other event.
A dog that's lagging during a figure eight exercise, a lazy retrieve, a sloppy sit etc.
I don't see how anyone could say that an e-collar is not a correction. Perhaps you just feel the word is too harsh, but IMO, I'm not going to sweeten the name up any just because I've chosen this route. It is a correction, MHO of course
Spiritus, breeding Belgians, a breed I dont' know much about. But I do know from a member on this board, that it's very common for young Belgians to show "aggresivenes" during the stand for examination, growling and lip curls.
So you feel that any dog that shows these behaviours should not ever be shown?
From what I understand, over half of the Belgian population would be non-show worthy on that statement.
The reason I do believe with work that she will be reliable is the fact, on how well obedience has worked in other areas of her life. This is stretching the situation a bit, but with her age now, her obedience, focus and her respect for my commands is growing as well.
Boemy- If I would've had that attitude, ROxy would be dead right now. Allowing behaviours that CAN be changed with work and training to continue because she is "uncomfortable" or simply not happy with the situation. (Roxy is not happy with a lot of situations. Silly things, squirrels in the yard, people near the car, people by the house, Hades stealing her "spot", the water tower we have to drive past to get into town, and the list goes on, the list gets pretty ridiculous as well) Or, she would be a dog that could never leave the house, for fear of biting, anyone at anytime. As mentioned she had some pretty aggressive behaviours, that with obedience worked have ceased.
Now, if I had your attitude, chances are, somewhere along the lines, something would've happened and she would've bit someone and been put down. I'm glad that I don't have that attitude. I'm proud of myself, for taking a dog that couldn't have lived in my community continuing in the direction she was and changed her. Yes, she still has quirks, but all of which I am working on. THe old bad habits that have been replaced with good are ALWAYS reinforced. ALWAYS. Every good sit stay with a stranger nearby. Every good recall when there is a heavy distraction, such as a person on a bicycle or another dog. (FOr which she nor Hades has NEVER slipped up)
That is not a good attitude to have with a dog period. Let alone a dog with aggressive tendencies that CAN and HAVE been changed.
No one other than my stranger and close family members is examining her yet. There are other dog trainers that attend my school, that will be the next level after she's solid with my trainer.
There is a DA dog in Hades class. They do sit stays, down stays etc together. Is it irresponsible for that owner to allow this because her dog is DA?
No. We are in a safe setting, she's a responsible dog owner and if we are doing an excersise that she doesn't firmly believe her dog will behave, she sits out.
I have the same attitude. If there wasn't the people in Roxy's class that knew I could control my dog and were comfortable with us practicing the "stranger on the road" excersise, Roxy would never have gotten to where she is today.
Spiritus- The excercise you mentioned, RD, I believe has already mentioned. It is something I do plan on using combined with the watch me method.
Yes, she knows the watch me exercise and we already use it. But there is no distraction that has ever required something like the e-collar. She doesn't care for other people or dogs working in our area, so we've never had to really enforce the command. Now we do. My voice and treats were not working to keep her attention so this is the route I've thought long and hard about taking.
Spiritus, I am more than happy to share "Roxy". The things we've tried, what's worked and what hasn't. It takes a while though as you've mentioned! LOL. Hades is much easier to explain. Roxy is much more complicated. Hence why the route I've chosen I believe is not as harsh as it may seem, and why I believe eventually, it will come as normally to her as any other event.
Roxy, what about ditching the SFE for a bit and then starting all over with a different person, with RD's suggested method? I get the feeling that Roxy has almost irreversibly connected your trainer to a bunch of stress and uncomfortableness (at least for this exercise).
I just keep thinking of when Sawyer was attacking the blower hose during his bath...it went from just a couple of nips at the hose to being tied directly against the wall and muzzled just so I could get his back end done before I feared he was going to kill himself. I didn't want to do that anymore, so I didn't use the dryer on him for like 3 months and just stuck with a thorough towel drying before putting him into a drying cage with a fan. Then I slowly started to introduce the hose back in, just showing it to him and gauging his reactions. Then I would turn it on for 1 second and then off, with praise if he didn't lunge for it. I found out that he would tolerate the smaller grooming blowers and so we started using those for a couple of seconds on his back end and just worked from there. Now, I can get him mostly dry with the big blower; he still doesn't like the blower up past his shoulders, but he's getting better! He kind of whines, but keeps eye contact with me and so long as I don't push the issue too fast, bath time is much MUCH less stressful.
Not quite the same as a HA dog, I know...but I feel the underlying principle is the same.
I just keep thinking of when Sawyer was attacking the blower hose during his bath...it went from just a couple of nips at the hose to being tied directly against the wall and muzzled just so I could get his back end done before I feared he was going to kill himself. I didn't want to do that anymore, so I didn't use the dryer on him for like 3 months and just stuck with a thorough towel drying before putting him into a drying cage with a fan. Then I slowly started to introduce the hose back in, just showing it to him and gauging his reactions. Then I would turn it on for 1 second and then off, with praise if he didn't lunge for it. I found out that he would tolerate the smaller grooming blowers and so we started using those for a couple of seconds on his back end and just worked from there. Now, I can get him mostly dry with the big blower; he still doesn't like the blower up past his shoulders, but he's getting better! He kind of whines, but keeps eye contact with me and so long as I don't push the issue too fast, bath time is much MUCH less stressful.
Not quite the same as a HA dog, I know...but I feel the underlying principle is the same.
Miakoda- Roxy is muzzled whenever the vet has to touch her. She is quite uncomfortable when she does touch her, we have her stand at the vet's as well, and her tail is up and under her belly. I don't leave her side though at the vet's, usually I have to hold her neck. She has never bit the vet, but she's snapped once or twice. IT's a long story, but IMO, she was approached in altogether the wrong way. After a terrible experience with her bordatella she's gotten much worse.
Zoom- RD's method makes a lot of sense to me. The problem with using anyone else is that there is no one else! LOL. I use my family at home without the collar to practice the watch me, but she doesn't really have any problem with that. As for another person period, I don't feel comfortable. I pay my trainer to put herself into these situations that COULD be dangerous. I would feel more than irresponsible if anything ever happened to anyone other than my trainer. I wouldn't feel great if anything happened to my trainer either, but it's got different circumstances surrounding the issue.
Zoom- RD's method makes a lot of sense to me. The problem with using anyone else is that there is no one else! LOL. I use my family at home without the collar to practice the watch me, but she doesn't really have any problem with that. As for another person period, I don't feel comfortable. I pay my trainer to put herself into these situations that COULD be dangerous. I would feel more than irresponsible if anything ever happened to anyone other than my trainer. I wouldn't feel great if anything happened to my trainer either, but it's got different circumstances surrounding the issue.
Then it's not just a problem with the trainer. It's a problem with ANY human being trying to touch her. IMO, it's not safe to do what you are trying to do with her. I'm not against the use of an e-collar as I've used one myself, but to use one to mask serious HA issues isn't going to work & someone will get severely injured.
My only advice is to let her be & not force her into situations she is uncomfortable, guarded, & aggressive in. And as for taking her off leash in highly populated areas, you're asking for a lawsuit.
Ok I haven''t had a chance to read the whole thread so I appologize if this has already been suggested. I also don''t know if Roxy's aggression comes out in JUST SFE or with people in general.
I''m curious, what happens when a person comes in and pretends Roxy doesn''t exist? If they don''t look at her, touch her and most importantly, don''t stand over her or in between you and her? What happens if they crouch down to her level and still dont look at her, or touch her? It''s also very important that if she does fire up they do not react to it at all. They dont show fear and they don;t back off, they just pretend there is no dog there doing anything.
I''m curious, what happens when a person comes in and pretends Roxy doesn''t exist? If they don''t look at her, touch her and most importantly, don''t stand over her or in between you and her? What happens if they crouch down to her level and still dont look at her, or touch her? It''s also very important that if she does fire up they do not react to it at all. They dont show fear and they don;t back off, they just pretend there is no dog there doing anything.
Ren, if people ignore Roxy, she behaves. I've said before, if everyone in the world just knew to ignore a dog that was behaving badly, Roxy wouldn't be near as bad as she is today.
The fact is that when she behaved badly, she got a reaction. A reaction that obviously got her riled up even more or that she wanted.
When she's ignored, she behaves quite well. (other than the circumstances that involve her in "PMM", Protect Mommy Mode.
With other people, "strangers", she just doesn't like to be rubbed roughly on the top of the head. With friends of mine, which I consider strangers, she's great. She remembers most of them, begs for attention, although I've taught them all that if they don't like the way she's approaching them to ignore her. She'll usually drop to the ground fast, and talk to get their attention if they've been petting her and she stops.
Miakoda- I don't think you understand. Period. Plain and simple. The fact that she's uncomfortable with the vet's should have NO impact, whatsoever on what your opinion on the matter is. It's been discussed on this forum before, that very well behaved, submissive animals, can behave badly at the vets. It can be a very scary place. Especially, if your nervous and approached the wrong way, add on top of that a terrifying experience, for ME and her. And it's no wonder she behaves the way she does.
I am not "masking" the issue. I am working on it, in the hopes of controlling her HA.
You must not have read the thread all the way through Miakoda. Through training, in your words, I've "MASKED" plenty of unacceptable behaviours. Lunging at strangers, snarling at strangers, barking, growling and the list goes on. You call it masking. I call it, desensitizing and spending hundreds of hours of training. But whatever you want to label it.
And as for your comment on having her offleash in public areas... I'm not a violent person, but right now I'd love to wring someone's neck...
Roxy is offleash EVERYDAY in a public area.
She has never ignored a recall. She has never rushed up on anyone.
And today actually, at the conservation area, we came around the corner on two sibes, (I was pretty nervous), called both Roxy and Hades to come. And guess what?? They effin did.
Now, you can have your opinions on my choice to use the e-collar in this situation. But your statement has angered me greatly.
Roxy has been offleash since she was a pup, weeks old. She has never run away. She never goes out of sight. She comes when called. And her attitude is not near the same when we're out on a walk, than when we are in a situation with people close to *me*.
Say what you want about my decision.
But please refrain from telling me what to do, and what the consequences are. ANYONE who allows their dog offleash is taking a risk.
With Roxy, this is not a large risk. Her "performance" off leash is probably more impressive than any dog you'll ever encounter.
A dog that will trot 20 feet up the trail, stop, look back and wait until we catch up. A dog that when called, despite a heavy distraction, sucha s OTHER dogs OFFLEASH or people. COMES WHEN CALLED.
You know nothing of the time spent with this dog.
State your opinions on the thread, which is regarding the use of an e-collar.
NOT on why I allow her offleash. I can't believe that someone would make a comment like that... How much do you know about my dogs and I?
Did you know that EVERYDAY for at least an HOUR my dogs are offleash?
Did you know that WE'VE been attacked?!?! And my dogs have never attacked any other loose animals or people walking?
Did you know that when we were attacked that Roxy did nothing?
I am so angry at that statement right now... I can't type anything other than, YOU ARE WRONG. ROXY IS MORE THAN LIKELY 1000 TIMES BETTER THAN ANY DOG YOU'VE SEEN OFFLEASH. EVER.
The fact is that when she behaved badly, she got a reaction. A reaction that obviously got her riled up even more or that she wanted.
When she's ignored, she behaves quite well. (other than the circumstances that involve her in "PMM", Protect Mommy Mode.
With other people, "strangers", she just doesn't like to be rubbed roughly on the top of the head. With friends of mine, which I consider strangers, she's great. She remembers most of them, begs for attention, although I've taught them all that if they don't like the way she's approaching them to ignore her. She'll usually drop to the ground fast, and talk to get their attention if they've been petting her and she stops.
Miakoda- I don't think you understand. Period. Plain and simple. The fact that she's uncomfortable with the vet's should have NO impact, whatsoever on what your opinion on the matter is. It's been discussed on this forum before, that very well behaved, submissive animals, can behave badly at the vets. It can be a very scary place. Especially, if your nervous and approached the wrong way, add on top of that a terrifying experience, for ME and her. And it's no wonder she behaves the way she does.
I am not "masking" the issue. I am working on it, in the hopes of controlling her HA.
You must not have read the thread all the way through Miakoda. Through training, in your words, I've "MASKED" plenty of unacceptable behaviours. Lunging at strangers, snarling at strangers, barking, growling and the list goes on. You call it masking. I call it, desensitizing and spending hundreds of hours of training. But whatever you want to label it.
And as for your comment on having her offleash in public areas... I'm not a violent person, but right now I'd love to wring someone's neck...
Roxy is offleash EVERYDAY in a public area.
She has never ignored a recall. She has never rushed up on anyone.
And today actually, at the conservation area, we came around the corner on two sibes, (I was pretty nervous), called both Roxy and Hades to come. And guess what?? They effin did.
Now, you can have your opinions on my choice to use the e-collar in this situation. But your statement has angered me greatly.
Roxy has been offleash since she was a pup, weeks old. She has never run away. She never goes out of sight. She comes when called. And her attitude is not near the same when we're out on a walk, than when we are in a situation with people close to *me*.
Say what you want about my decision.
But please refrain from telling me what to do, and what the consequences are. ANYONE who allows their dog offleash is taking a risk.
With Roxy, this is not a large risk. Her "performance" off leash is probably more impressive than any dog you'll ever encounter.
A dog that will trot 20 feet up the trail, stop, look back and wait until we catch up. A dog that when called, despite a heavy distraction, sucha s OTHER dogs OFFLEASH or people. COMES WHEN CALLED.
You know nothing of the time spent with this dog.
State your opinions on the thread, which is regarding the use of an e-collar.
NOT on why I allow her offleash. I can't believe that someone would make a comment like that... How much do you know about my dogs and I?
Did you know that EVERYDAY for at least an HOUR my dogs are offleash?
Did you know that WE'VE been attacked?!?! And my dogs have never attacked any other loose animals or people walking?
Did you know that when we were attacked that Roxy did nothing?
I am so angry at that statement right now... I can't type anything other than, YOU ARE WRONG. ROXY IS MORE THAN LIKELY 1000 TIMES BETTER THAN ANY DOG YOU'VE SEEN OFFLEASH. EVER.
And as for this comment. If I would've had this attitude from day one, Roxy would be an inside dog. Unable to leave the house, and no one could come in my house. Period.
Roxy is uncomfortable with plenty of things. Or, a better word would be "unhappy". Roxy is unhappy when we're at the store and teenagers loiter in front of our window. But her down stay is so solid, that she'll merely stare, sometimes rumble if they lean up against the window.
Roxy is MORE than unhappy, she's downright FURIOUS, when the mail man comes stomping up the stairs and clanks around in the mailbox, but if I've put her in a down stay, that adrenaline rush ceases. The barking upon barking that only excites a dog more, is stopped. The cycle is stopped.
There are so many areas of Roxy's life that she was at one time unhappy with. But with work, and desensitizing her, she has learned to live with it. Many people do not enjoy going to work everyday, but we do and learn not to hate it so much. Some days we hate it more than others. There are things about Roxy's work that she enjoys doing, and there are some that she doesnt' like, but complies. Roxy's "issues" can be very well compared to that statement.
Experimenting this with my trainer is not dangerous. It's her job. And if it's clear it isn't working, which after today it seems quite the opposite, as I've already stated, I'll throw the idea out the window.
But if we can train and work on this obstacle, why not??? Why not work on an issue with a trainer that you pay and is more than aware of the issues? *shakes head*
Roxy is uncomfortable with plenty of things. Or, a better word would be "unhappy". Roxy is unhappy when we're at the store and teenagers loiter in front of our window. But her down stay is so solid, that she'll merely stare, sometimes rumble if they lean up against the window.
Roxy is MORE than unhappy, she's downright FURIOUS, when the mail man comes stomping up the stairs and clanks around in the mailbox, but if I've put her in a down stay, that adrenaline rush ceases. The barking upon barking that only excites a dog more, is stopped. The cycle is stopped.
There are so many areas of Roxy's life that she was at one time unhappy with. But with work, and desensitizing her, she has learned to live with it. Many people do not enjoy going to work everyday, but we do and learn not to hate it so much. Some days we hate it more than others. There are things about Roxy's work that she enjoys doing, and there are some that she doesnt' like, but complies. Roxy's "issues" can be very well compared to that statement.
Experimenting this with my trainer is not dangerous. It's her job. And if it's clear it isn't working, which after today it seems quite the opposite, as I've already stated, I'll throw the idea out the window.
But if we can train and work on this obstacle, why not??? Why not work on an issue with a trainer that you pay and is more than aware of the issues? *shakes head*
Here's the thing-- you make a post with a pretty inflammatory subject like "slap me I used an e-collar" happily telling us that you did something that you know the vast majority of us (and of any circle of knowledgable trainers or dog people ) would strongly disagree with and think is beyond stupid and dangerous and then get mad when people give you really sound reasons why it was a really dumb thing to do and suggest you do otherwise.
Isn't this something you knowingly brought on yourself and wanted to hash out ? If not, I don't understand. I also don't understand why you're lashing out now at common sense advice.
I'm not trying to fuel any fire here, I just think you need to realise how this comes across. You asked for a slap- you can't really complain about getting one. I actually think people have been very polite and very good about explaining at great lengths why what you're doing is counter-intuitive if you understand anything about aggression or even behavior mod in general.
edited to fix typos
Isn't this something you knowingly brought on yourself and wanted to hash out ? If not, I don't understand. I also don't understand why you're lashing out now at common sense advice.
I'm not trying to fuel any fire here, I just think you need to realise how this comes across. You asked for a slap- you can't really complain about getting one. I actually think people have been very polite and very good about explaining at great lengths why what you're doing is counter-intuitive if you understand anything about aggression or even behavior mod in general.
edited to fix typos
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I would not show a Belgian who showed aggression of any kind. I would not try to "train out" unwarranted aggression if I saw it in one of my Belgians just to compete. If my Belgians do not have the confidence and stability of character to stand for an exam, they are spayed/neutered or returned to their breeder.
I have extremely high standards when it comes to the temperaments of my Belgians, and while I do believe that they should be protective, they should not be worried about anyone approaching them if I say it is okay. If they are habitually worried, they should not contribute to the gene pool.
I ring stewarded at a show earlier this year, and a Belgian backed down from the judge repeatedly, and the judge just tried again, and later even gave the dog the points. I was mortified. I asked him why he would reward that behavior, and he said that judges must allow that and expect that in Belgians. IMO, this is wrong. The Belgian breed is a working breed. They need to be self confident and not scared of the world. They also need to be obedient and do as is asked. If they don't have the stability of character to handle a show, then no, they should not be shown. IMO, no one has the right to risk anyone elses safety just for the sake of a title.
This may sound a bit extreme to some, but temperament can be an issue in my breed, and it should NOT be an issue. Belgians should be stable.
The Temperament exerpt from the Belgian Standard
Canada
The Belgian Shepherd Dog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness, and devotion to his master. To his inherent aptitude as guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive, and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans, he should be observant and vigilant with strangers but not apprehensive. He should not show fear or shyness. He should not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate, friendly, zealous of their attention, and very possessive.
USA - Tervuren
In his relationship with humans he is observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He does not show fear or shyness. He does not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. He must be approachable, standing his ground and showing confidence to meet overtures without himself making them. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate and friendly, zealous for their attention and very possessive.
USA - Sheepdog/Groenendael
The Belgian Sheepdog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness, and devotion to master. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans he should be observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He should not show fear or shyness. He should not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate and friendly, zealous of their attention, and very possessive. Viciousness is a disqualification.
I have extremely high standards when it comes to the temperaments of my Belgians, and while I do believe that they should be protective, they should not be worried about anyone approaching them if I say it is okay. If they are habitually worried, they should not contribute to the gene pool.
I ring stewarded at a show earlier this year, and a Belgian backed down from the judge repeatedly, and the judge just tried again, and later even gave the dog the points. I was mortified. I asked him why he would reward that behavior, and he said that judges must allow that and expect that in Belgians. IMO, this is wrong. The Belgian breed is a working breed. They need to be self confident and not scared of the world. They also need to be obedient and do as is asked. If they don't have the stability of character to handle a show, then no, they should not be shown. IMO, no one has the right to risk anyone elses safety just for the sake of a title.
This may sound a bit extreme to some, but temperament can be an issue in my breed, and it should NOT be an issue. Belgians should be stable.
The Temperament exerpt from the Belgian Standard
Canada
The Belgian Shepherd Dog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness, and devotion to his master. To his inherent aptitude as guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive, and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans, he should be observant and vigilant with strangers but not apprehensive. He should not show fear or shyness. He should not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate, friendly, zealous of their attention, and very possessive.
USA - Tervuren
In his relationship with humans he is observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He does not show fear or shyness. He does not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. He must be approachable, standing his ground and showing confidence to meet overtures without himself making them. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate and friendly, zealous for their attention and very possessive.
USA - Sheepdog/Groenendael
The Belgian Sheepdog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness, and devotion to master. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans he should be observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive. He should not show fear or shyness. He should not show viciousness by unwarranted or unprovoked attack. With those he knows well, he is most affectionate and friendly, zealous of their attention, and very possessive. Viciousness is a disqualification.