I think I'm going to find a new home for Boris... or put him down

[M&M's Mommy]

I have to ask, are these additional inflammatory comments directed towards me?

Because if they are I much prefer a more direct approach.

Redyre, don't worry about it. Even if it was directed toward you, let it slide. Keep your focus on shedding light into the subject at hand & know that what you share from your heart are being appreciated.

Since I have zero experiences in training dogs, I don't have anything to add to this thread except that from what I gathered from your posts, you seem to be a very experienced trainer who knows exactly what you're talking about & you have great concern for the safety of people, which should rightfully be the most important concern. I hope more people would pay attention to what you have to say, rather than trying to denounce it.

 

[elegy]

i gotta agree with dizzy. i'm not convinced this dog really is so dominant and aggressive. i think with a strong-minded, bossy owner who is not willing to put up with his nonsense and who is willing to put in the time and effort to deal with his issues, things could work out.

what happens if he bites? well, that's something that needs to be worked out between the people actually involved, but i hope they will have the foresight to make these kinds of decisions ahead of time and put everything in writing so there are no questions in the case that something does happen.

 

[milos_mommy]

milo's mommy, I know your heart is in the right place, and you have only the best intentions, but do you have experience with a dominant aggressive dog who will posture, growl, and actively threaten you like this dog?

yes!! Even Milo did this for a little bit. I broke the habit pretty quickly...and have definately been faced with other dominant aggressive dogs before.

What will happen if you are bitten by this dog? Do you have any experience with what can happen in a multi dog household if an attack begins?

I'd obviously take EVERY prevention to avoid being bit...and as far as I know he hasn't bit Fran or her husband yet. If I did get bit, we'd start over. Stricter lifestyle. He needs to learn that a) he doesn't need to bite. It sounds almost like fear aggression, fear he doesn't have control over his things and space. and b) He needs to learn he doesn't have control over the situation and that's okay. That better things happen when you act like a proper canine citizen and not like Kujo. I'd pretty much do exactly what you listed a few pages back.

And i LIVE in a multi-dog household where attacks have happened. I have experience breaking up dog fights and if Boris did get a hold of something and was showing aggressive signs, Milo would be taken out of that situation immediately. Boris would probably be leashed a lot of the time so i'd have better control.

What will happen if someone else is bitten by him?

Again, I'd obviously take every preventative measure to be sure this didn't happen. He'd be leashed around people, I wouldn't take him to crowded areas and if i had a lot of company he'd be crated or kept in a room seperately.

And if he did bite someone...What would happen if he bit someone else now? What if Milo bit someone? Or Tips, or one of your dogs? It's a chance you take with any dog. With a dog like Boris, you need preventative.

What would be your plan when the dog grabs something he should not have, and actively threatens you when you approach?

If it was dangerous to him or valuable, i'd probably bribe him with food or a toy. As i said, he'd be leashed much of the time. I'd start clicker training to teach him drop it, to grab other objects, and ask him to do something that would require him to drop the object. (yawn, catch something, hold something).

These are just a few things to consider before you step up to take on a dog with long term very well set behavior issues that are as serious and dangerous as the ones this dog has.

I know that. If I had less experience, less time, or lacked the means to work with him, I wouldn't offer to take this on. Even if I do, I have no idea if it will work out. But aside from putting him down, I think it's the safest option. And if it DOES work out, and I can turn Boris into a well-behaved family-member, I will be very, very, very glad he wasn't put down.

 

[showdawgz]

I'd obviously take EVERY prevention to avoid being bit...and as far as I know he hasn't bit Fran or her husband yet. If I did get bit, we'd start over. Stricter lifestyle. He needs to learn that a) he doesn't need to bite. It sounds almost like fear aggression, fear he doesn't have control over his things and space. and b) He needs to learn he doesn't have control over the situation and that's okay. That better things happen when you act like a proper canine citizen and not like Kujo. I'd pretty much do exactly what you listed a few pages back.

Possession is NOT fear, thats where you will get hurt. Its not like you back a dog into a corner to make it go into fight/flight. This dog views EVERYTHING in its possession as high value and will defend it with its life. He needs to understand that NOTHING belongs to him, and I get the impression simply clicker training will not work, as nothing you have with be as high value as what he is guarding.

 

[milos_mommy]

I definately wouldn't be doing "simply" clicker training. I'd be doing a helluva lot more than clicker training for this dog. He'd be in puppy-boot-camp until he straightened up.

He definately has a problem with possession, but Fran said he'll growl if he's under a table and she steps over him or something like that. Which sounds to me like fear. He also had most if not all his toys taken away because Tips was ingesting them, which makes him feel they're THAT much more valuable and worth protecting.

 

[Dekka]

Possession is NOT fear, thats where you will get hurt. Its not like you back a dog into a corner to make it go into fight/flight. This dog views EVERYTHING in its possession as high value and will defend it with its life. He needs to understand that NOTHING belongs to him, and I get the impression simply clicker training will not work, as nothing you have with be as high value as what he is guarding.

Oh I would say its fear... Fear that you are going to take his possessions away. I have worked with some pretty serious resource guarders. If you treat it like fear, it works really well. You just calmly show the dog its not his and he has nothing to fear..ie when you give up objects good things happen.

I teach all my pups to trade, not through bribes though.

 

[bubbatd]

Personally , I feel that this poor Golden is messed up with in breeding ......puppy mill product . I do hope that he can be helped ,,,,,, this is NOT a Golden temperment !

 

[showdawgz]

Oh I would say its fear... Fear that you are going to take his possessions away. I have worked with some pretty serious resource guarders. If you treat it like fear, it works really well. You just calmly show the dog its not his and he has nothing to fear..ie when you give up objects good things happen.

I teach all my pups to trade, not through bribes though.

All dogs have a level of possession, it all depends on the individual dog and how far they are willing to go. This dog is no longer scared of someone taking his toy or whatever away, he's making sure of it. He KNOWS no one will have the balls to take it from him, therefore not out of fear, but over time the same reinforcements (ie not taking the toy or not challenging him) has raised his confidence. He has more confidence than any other member of the household because everyone fears him. He needs a STRONG leader. I LIKE to see possession in my dogs all of them will fight to the end for "their" stuff, but NEVER have I had an issue with my dog resource guarding from ME (ie their leader). This dog can be a great companion for someone who shows self-confidence, firmness, and consistency. But the question is WHO??

 

[showdawgz]

Personally , I feel that this poor Golden is messed up with in breeding ......puppy mill product . I do hope that he can be helped ,,,,,, this is NOT a Golden temperment !

But it is a part of the genetic makeup for ANY dog, they all have the potential to become like this. This dog is not a lost cause, but the problem is finding someone experienced enough to handle and has enough time to devote to him.

 

[milos_mommy]

I can't make any promises, but I think I would be able to take Boris and honestly believe I could work with him and make him a normal, companionable, easy-to-live-with dog.

 

[bubbatd]

I hope so !!! But I've never had a Golden who would react this way ... or ever known one . I personally feel that his brain is short circuited . I am the last to put a Golden down !!!! I do hope someone can help !!! In an " aggressive " breed , you can blame genetics ..... none of these issues are norm in a Golden . Unless throug very bad breeding . And can this be removed ??? I hope so !

 

[bubbatd]

I hope so !!! But I've never had a Golden who would react this way ... or ever known one . I personally feel that his brain is short circuited . I am the last to put a Golden down !!!! I do hope someone can help !!! In an " aggressive " breed , you can blame genetics ..... none of these issues are norm in a Golden . Unless throug very bad breeding . And can this be removed ??? I hope so !

 

[bubbatd]

I hope you're right !!!

 

[Dekka]

All dogs have a level of possession, it all depends on the individual dog and how far they are willing to go. This dog is no longer scared of someone taking his toy or whatever away, he's making sure of it. He KNOWS no one will have the balls to take it from him, therefore not out of fear, but over time the same reinforcements (ie not taking the toy or not challenging him) has raised his confidence. He has more confidence than any other member of the household because everyone fears him. He needs a STRONG leader. I LIKE to see possession in my dogs all of them will fight to the end for "their" stuff, but NEVER have I had an issue with my dog resource guarding from ME (ie their leader). This dog can be a great companion for someone who shows self-confidence, firmness, and consistency. But the question is WHO??

we will have to agree to disagree. IMO its still fear, the dog is coming at it from another angle-he is more afraid of loosing his object of desire than the relationship with his human. If someone went to take my bike and I chased them down-that would be because I would fear for the loss of my bike. If I didn't care or knew it would come back with a chance of being better than before then I wouldn't chase the person down.

(I have one dog right now that was returned to rescue after biting and would guard beds to the point the daughter couldn't enter her own room when he was on her bed. 2 weeks and he is pretty much fine. I treated it as an insecurity that needed training. )

 

[showdawgz]

I can't make any promises, but I think I would be able to take Boris and honestly believe I could work with him and make him a normal, companionable, easy-to-live-with dog.

Just understand that Boris is MUCH larger and stronger than Milo and can seriously injure you. And know that you must protect YOURSELF and family first (not to mention your other dogs). It is a HUGE liability to have a dog that is unpredictable, and you must be prepared to handle that both emotionally and financially.

 

[showdawgz]

we will have to agree to disagree. IMO its still fear, the dog is coming at it from another angle-he is more afraid of loosing his object of desire than the relationship with his human. If someone went to take my bike and I chased them down-that would be because I would fear for the loss of my bike. If I didn't care or knew it would come back with a chance of being better than before then I wouldn't chase the person down.

(I have one dog right now that was returned to rescue after biting and would guard beds to the point the daughter couldn't enter her own room when he was on her bed. 2 weeks and he is pretty much fine. I treated it as an insecurity that needed training. )

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. This dog's confidence has been raised throughout his entire life, therefore he has NOTHING to fear. No one has ever challenged his "authority" therefore he is the alpha and telling his little minions to back off. But in reality he does not have the proper temperament to be alpha, but has been allowed to be. The alpha does not fear but warns out of confidence (knowing he can take on any one who challenges him). This dog needs LEADERSHIP bottom line.

 

[goldiefur]

I just think Boris KNOWS he can get away with it. Fran backed down to him and if you do that enough when they test you (this goes for any dog) they will get the idea that they are running the show. I would NOT put this dog to sleep I think he just needs training. If you have tried everything and you have to rehome him so be it but I would not be so easy to give up. I hope everything works out for Boris and family he is a beautiful dog.

 

[Miakoda]

Not all guarding issues are fixable. I wish people would quit preaching that.

Wrigley had serious food aggression that only got worse as he aged. For 6 years I worked and worked and worked with that dog on a daily basis. I worked with behaviorists and trainers and even consulted trainers as far away as New York. Yet in the end, the result was the same.

Wrigley was and still remains my favorite dog of all time. But I could not and can not change genetics and his FA was a temperament issue, not just a simple behavioral one. As Cole got older and began to get mobile, I made the hardest decision of my life....and that was to euthanize Wrigley. Why? Because in my heart I KNEW that if Wrigley and Cole found some stale potato chip on the floor and went for it at the same time, that my 100 lb dog would go after my son. And NO animal on this planet is worth the safety and well-being of a child. Period.

Fran, I wish you the best in your decision. But this iis one in which you are going to have to make for yourself. Although tips and adivce from others is all good and well, no one else lives in your house besides you, your husband, and your children and no one will ever truly know Boris' actions besides those in your own home. And should one of your children get bitten by a resource guarding dog, then no one on here is going to take the blame for it due to encouraging you to keep the dog around. I truly wish you well and just know that you must do what you have to for the safety of your children. I know you love Boris, but not all dogs can be "fixed." And to learn that the hard way is/will be devestating.

 

[showdawgz]

NO ONE to telling her to keep the dog. No one on this forum knows if this issue os fixable or not, but no one has encouraged her to keep boris.

 

[Miakoda]

NO ONE to telling her to keep the dog. No one on this forum knows if this issue os fixable or not, but no one has encouraged her to keep boris.

Where did I specifically say someone told her to keep the dog?

And you want to know what's worse than keeping the dog, IMO? Giving the dog away to someone else for it to be their problem and imposing a serious liability on someone else's family. Dogs with serious issues don't need to be rehomed. They need to be dealt with.