Slap me... Used an e-collar :O

Roxy's CD · Oct 26, 2006

I'm sure there are many people who do not want to get involved with this convo on the board, but if you've read the thread, have read other threads on Roxy and have ANY other options or advice for me, I would appreciate a PM

It's quite hard to explain Roxy, she's much smarter, sneakier and much more complex than any dog I've ever met. So for those of you who've read threads for months about us, I'm sure you can understand the best. If you don't feel comfortable posting please PM

ToscasMom · Oct 26, 2006

I think it's pretty obvious that I don't know squat about giving people any real detailed advice on training, that's why I am here to ask when I can. But I do know alot about hearing what people are *not* saying when they are saying something. What I mean is I hear a confession in your first post and an increasing rationalization and defense in the posts that follow. That's human nature I think.

I guess you have to ask yourself, is showing this dog in the obedience ring that important and is it that important to hurry about it? Is it important to Roxy? I think sometimes it's best to put ourselves in the situation we create. Sometimes I cringe at a mistake I've made once I put myself into the other side of it. Just as a hypothetical, if somebody used a shock collar on you, you would do exactly what they wanted you to do but would you ever forget it? And if your mother were there letting it happen and ok'ing it, would you forget it? Would you maybe get even in some way at the first opportunity? Probably. It's human nature. And humans are rational, thinking beings with all kinds of resources by which to even scores or correct painful wrongs handed to them. Roxie is a dog and her greatest resource is her physical strength and ability to fight to use it aggressively.

From what I see in this thread, I really think you know you did the wrong thing for your dog in the long haul and you and Roxy probably need to work that out. Of course I have no idea how to do that, but I know there are people here who can help you do it, because a mistake corrected is sometimes almost as good as no mistake at all.

silverpawz · Oct 26, 2006

This doesn't sound like fear to me. It sounds like she's picking and chooseing when she'll tolerate being petted. All aggression is not fear based. Much of it is, but not all.

Yes, I have owned a people aggressive dog before. When I first got her she would growl and snarl at anyone that got to close, and god forbid if they tried to pet her she'd take a chunk out of them easy. She did have fear aggression though. It was very obvious.

What I did I do with her to curb this? Easy. I trained her. She was in training from the first day I got her home. I made it clear that what I say goes, I'm the one who will control the situation, and she is it look to me for guidence.
I controlled her aggression through obedience. She'd do a down/stay when we greeted people, a perfect heel while we passed strangers, we'd run through our obedience routine while in strange places to get her mind off the scarey new people.

Bottom line, she new if I said sit or down or whatever else, that she had better do it. If she was obeying me, she couldn't be showing aggression and through time the aggression itself faded away.

I had grand dreams of competing with her on OB, she was an AWESOME worker and we got plenty of backyard 200s. But she didn't have the type of temperament for the sport. She would never enjoy it, being around all those people and having strangers touch her. Sure, I could have trained her to tolerate it, but in the end, if my dog doesn't enjoy it, it's not worth doing.

Can Roxy obey all your command at the drop of a dime, in ANY situation WITHOUT treats present? If the answer is no, then you're not at the point where you should even be thinking about competition obedience. The basics, in all situations, around strangers, need to be perfected first. And once you have that kind of relationship with yur dog, the kind where you could walk her offleash through downtown if you wanted and never have her leave your side (I'm not saying do this, but you get my point)...then competition obedience, and the stand for exam won't be an issue.

Why? because at that point your dog will respect you enough to obey you and trust you when you tell her to stand and stay.

Purdue#1 · Oct 26, 2006

Sliverpawz is pretty much right. Now i'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but it is in a way a dominance situation. She does not respect you enough. She needs strict training. Not mean training, but she needs to know that what you say goes. You need to mean what you say. In a way i guess, the e-collar does that. It tells her that she better watch you or she is going to get shocked. Like a dog that lives inside an eletric fence. He knows not to go to it because he will get shocked.

That's just how i feel.

sam · Oct 26, 2006

I don't think any of us are saying we know that this is fear based. wether it is fear or wether it is a dog who thinks they are in fact in charge and deciding what goes and what doesn't , wether the dog is resource guarding her owner when the trainer approaches - none of us know.
In another thread everyone seemed to agree that it's next to impossible to say what is going on over the internet. All the information is biased as it being described by someone else.
Regardless of what is causing Roxy to snarl and lipcurl - the shock collar and corrections is not a smart choice and is likely going to make this situation worse.

Roxy's CD · Oct 26, 2006

Firstly silverpawz, I'd like to discuss the idea of it not being fear based a bit more, because it's been discussed before, this situation and the consensus was fear, BUT as you've said, and I've mentioned but can't fit it into the concept of fear based aggression is: IT'S ON HER OWN TERMS.

LOL@ backyard 200's, in my mind we've gotten easy 30 points in what can be some of the hardest events, but haven't we all! LOL

Roxy LOVES to work. She, with our short break and some help from Colleen, now enjoys heeling work. She has always loved retrieving, jumping, her ultimate favourite is go outs. And her downs, sits, stands etc are more than solid.

She is off leash frequently. Everyday actually. We've come into contact with quite a few hefty distractions, people on bikes (Which she HATES with a passion), people and other dogs and she has NEVER gotten close enough for anything to happen. I either called her to come, or stay, where I walked up and put her on leash. I have walked her off leash in our small town, with a dumbell or her basket in her mouth because with a task to do she is much less likely to act out. She is focused on her job. Because ROxy is NOT interested in people, off leash work is not a problem. She is not outwardly aggressive, as in she doesn't rush at people for no reason and bite them. It's if her space is invaded. So walking off leash through a crowd of people that aren't paying attention to her is no problem.

I've thought about this problem, long before even considering the e-collar. Is it worth it? WOuld she enjoy it?

And I believe she would. In the right environment, Roxy becomes a completely different dog. As I said she loves to work, for example, if we've done a great figure eight, she enjoys the praise. She'll jump up all over the place.

Swings are so exciting for her, because she knows soon, if she's done a good job she's getting a rough pat and some treats. She's the dog in the ring, that does the 180 degree jump into heel. You know the acrobatic dog, flying into heel position from front.

The only downside in our lesson today was the stand for exam. Which wasn't even a downside because after a few zolts we were all in awe. Feeding her hot dogs, praising etc.

Your comment about obedience controlling the aggression. That is exactly what we've done and are trying to do with this problem now. Obedience has been the best thing for our relationship.

We have awhile, plenty of hours of training to do before I would consider a show to enter her in. (assuming this works and we fix this problem) But this issue, is the one that's been holding us back. Every other event in trial is "solid". Once they were ALL down, I'd work in a high distraction setting. Again, again and then again.

There would still be plenty of more work to do, but at least she would have all of the events down pat, so we could work on it as a whole. Not a piece here, oops can't do that a piece here etc.

You've raised some great questions I'll have to think about silverpawz. I greatly appreciate your input.

What do you call a dog that picks and chooses when they want to be patted? LOL And I'm not asking if you agree with the e-collar method, but from what I understand you agree that training, working on obedience skills like downs, sits or watch me's is a good way, that worked for you, in controlling your aggressive dog.

BostonBanker · Oct 26, 2006

Pretty much everybody has already said what I was thinking throughout the thread. I've read several of your posts about Roxy before, but probably not all of them, so forgive me if some of these questions have been answered in the past.

Why do you want to show in obedience? I know you've said that she seems to truly enjoy a lot of the work, and I think that is wonderful. But why do you need to compete. If Roxy is so clearly uncomfortable with one part of the required work, why not just train her up through the levels with your trainer, and skip the showing? Then you don't have to worry about the exam. You would get tons of wonderful training experience that you could later apply to your other dog (or a future dog). It sounds like you've done a great job of getting Roxy to the point where she can be a member of society; that is a huge accomplishment! I just don't understand why you feel the need to push her for a competition.

I think this is very well stated. I knew someone with a very HA border collie. She did a spectacular job of teaching the dog to tolerate anything (she basically put the dog is a stay for vet exams, etc). The dog would never bite in these situations, but you could see she was just miserable being touched. While she had to learn to tolerate it for the vet, I can't imagine making her deal with it just for some ribbons. The dog actually wound up being a super agility dog.

I'm really impressed with what you've done with Roxy. To take a dog with that kind of aggression and turn her into an animal that can be in public and maintain her obedience is such a success. I would just urge you to think long and hard (if you haven't already) about if it is worth damaging that incredible trust you've built so that you can compete with her.

Doberluv · Oct 26, 2006

I think here is where part of the problem is. You're thinking you're punishing Roxies taking her eyes off of you, but that is not how it works. There are other behaviors happening at the same time and you don't know which behavior is being punished the most, or if one or all are being punished. This having someone touch her....which makes her lip curl and snarl is a strong, upper most behavior. When you take all the behaviors that may be occuring at the same time; the taking her eyes off of you, the moving a paw possibly, the looking sideways with her eyes, the twitching of an ear, taking a deep breath, how is she suppose to know that you are talking about not taking her eyes off of you? The snarling and lip curl is probably the most pre-dominant behavior going on...the thing which is causing her to react is probably more uppermost in her mind and the "watch me" is probably falling short as a more resessive behavior at that time. So, when she gets shocked, although you like to think that it is affecting her failure to watch you, it may well be affecting another behavior or all kinds of behaviors. She has to guess which behavior is causing this shock. For all she knows, it very well may be the person who is causing the shock and not something she is doing at all! Dogs pair things together, make associations. They don't logically work it all out in their heads they way you're doing. Until a dog has had many many repititions of a reinforcer (good or bad) it isn't going to happen that she stops guessing and comes on the right behavior.

So, in other words, what you have in mind, what your intent is....is not based on animal learning behavior. And probably isn't driving anything home to the dog except whatever it is she happens to be associating the shock with at the time. It might be one thing one time, another thing another time. She's just guessing.

I would not give advice as to how to deal with this. First of all, I do not have enough experience with this kind of thing. Second, over the Internet, I can't see her. As a general idea....I would think a proper desensatization-counter conditioning program should be implimented. The thing which she has an objection to needs to be made into something which is good to her, rewarding. And it should not be made to be associated with something bad. (shock)

You can definitely ruin the relationship between you two. That can make her nervous, confused and more distrustful. Personally, if I had that problem, I would not let my dog be around people. I could not risk it.

I would recommend you find a certified behaviorist who understands how to treat this without use of aversives. And read those books which were recommended. They may give you more insight into this.

Personally, I'd skip the dog shows. Of course, I'm not really into that anyhow, so maybe I'm biased. But if it's not fun for the dog, what's the point?

elegy · Oct 26, 2006

what i'd do? i'd get rid of the e-collar and stop pushing the stupid stand for exam right now. i'd do training work that she enjoys and work on your relationship with her. do rally or something. there's no stand for exam in AKC rally at all. there's plenty of work and plenty of titles to be achieved there without ever putting her in a position where she's uncomfortable enough to threaten people.

because what you're calling "saucy" is "threatening". that lip curl says loud and clear "i'm uncomfortable and you need to stop". i'm sorry you can't see that as aggression, but if people bothered to pay attention to the very loud, clear warning signs instead of passing them off as something like "sauciness" i think there'd be a lot fewer bites in this world.

then after you've done a lot of strengthening of your relationship, after you've put a lot more practice into her attention, after you've developed the trust that goes with a solid working relationship, i'd start back with the SFE by desensitizing her to it.

start by breaking off the exercise right before the point where you know she stresses and jackpot reward her. then take a small step closer. don't push her to the point where she lip curls. always stop before that and reward her with something huge. teach her that SFE = wonderful things for dogs. help her to understand that there is nothing threatening, and that cooperating with this silly game will have big payoffs for her.

it's already an unpleasant experience for her. punishment is only going to make it *more* unpleasant.

i believe pam dennison talks about this pretty step by step in giving light to shadow.

Doberluv · Oct 26, 2006

Well put Elegy. This is a huge premise behind the concept of NOT using aversives. You don't push the dog beyond his threshold and then punish when he isn't ready for something. You set him up to succeed and reward for small steps in the right direction. You catch the dog before there is an indication of any intention by the dog to react. So, the dog is not put through unnecessary stress. Small accomplishments are easy compared to getting the entire behavior the way you want it all at once. Improvement is easier when the dog isn't thrust into a flooding type of situation but able to face things gradually and from a distance at first. Then you don't tend to supress behavior but to work through it piece by piece.

I really hope you can see these points objectively and not feel defensive or feel like you need to make excuses for Roxie's behavior. It truly isn't saucy. It's dangerous. Everyone wants the best for you and Roxie. No one is trying to be negative and shoot you down. It's really just that we're concerned about it all. See if you can get hold of those books.

(((hugs)))

silverpawz · Oct 26, 2006

Snooty. LOL

Seriously, I know some won't agree with this comment, but I believe dogs are like people in this way, not all dogs like attention from humans all the time. I certainly wouldn't like it if somone came up and hugged me out of the blue, even if I knew them, even if we've hugged before under different circumstance, that doesn't mean I want to hug them all the time, ya know?

I'm not a touchy person. Some dogs are not 'touchy' dogs either.

Now, of course that doesn't mean growling or grumbling is okay and should be tolerated. She's choosing the wrong way to express her dislike of the situation. She could simply move away, but instead she chooses to show aggression. This says she may not respect your trainer. Like her? Sure. But repect and like are two different things.

How would I deal with this.....after pondering it a bit more I think I'd hand over her leash to your trainer and let her work with Roxy a little bit. She needs to learn that all humans are to be respected, and a good way to do that is to let other experienced people work with her and run her through her paces. While of course making the SFE a fun thing.

Here's a quick idea. Grab some squeeze cheese. Ask for the Stand/stay and then start squirting cheese (in small amounts) in her mouth while your trainer touches her. Hopefully she'll be so preoccupied with the cheese she won't care if she's being touched. Over time she'll associated being touched with really yummy food. You can also use some PB in a dixie cup instead. This works better than just giving treats because it's continuous, you don't have to stop inbetween.

The stand doesn't sound like the problem, I'm sure Roxy has a good SFE as long as someone isn't touching her, right? So I'd work on teaching her to respect other people, and try the PB/Cheese trick in the mean time.

I've used e-collars, and still use them with some dogs. I'm not anti-ecollar at all. but I wouldn't use it in this situation. Yes, obedience in a no-nonsense way helped a great deal.

Dreeza · Oct 26, 2006

ok, i really didnt read this whole thread, but I feel the need to defend e-collars. I agree that they should NOT be a first resort by any means, but, when necessary, and when used right, with the help of a professional trainer, they can be incredibly effective.

I firmly believe oakley's e-collar is the only reason he is still with us, and with that, still alive. He would NEVER have passed a test to get re-adopted out. It has been over a year since he was first exposed to his e-collar, and his aggression issues have almost completely subsided.

IliamnasQuest · Oct 27, 2006

Well, count me in with those who think this was not a good idea.

I see you making all sorts of excuses for using it, but I am extremely disappointed in your trainer who I think let you down big time. She didn't know what to do and so went along with the shock collar idea instead of finding someone who could help you with some new ideas. You may like your trainer, but she's not very good if this is an indication of her methods.

I'm not against the shock collar. I have one, I've used it (recently, in fact) for a dog that tends to run off - a dog that has had extensive recall training and who needs to be able to run and exercise, but has decided that occasionally she needs to take off on her own. This is dangerous and the collar has made a difference for her. But I would never ever consider using it for a dog with Roxy's problem.

From what you described, you have a dog with "issues". She is learning to handle those issues. You can have her by your side and she ignores people. The only time you see a reaction in her is when you tell her "don't you move a foot!" and then you walk away (so she's no longer in her "safety zone") and you expect her to stand there calmly while a stranger invades her space. This is a HUGE trust issue for a dog, especially one with issues already. She's probably feeling trapped, since the person she trusts has insisted that she not move. And then there's this person that she doesn't truly trust who wants to touch her, and the only thing she can do is show her worry by lifting a lip or growling.

Now you've added the fear and pain of a shock to the situation. Granted, it may not be much of a shock, but I can guarantee the dog knows it's there. You can easily teach her to not lift a lip or growl, but it's not fixing the problem. You're just putting a band-aid on it. She's learning that she can't give you the signals that she is uncomfortable. You've taken that away from her.

So now when she's really worried, really uncomfortable because it's some stranger in an obedience ring (a stressful situation already) - she has no way to say "hey, I can't handle this". Dogs like this can go directly to a full-fledged attack without any visual precursors.

I know it sounds dramatic, but unfortunately I've seen it happen more than once. Back in the old days when I first started training, I was taught the Koehler methods. We corrected a dog for any sort of sign of "aggression" - a curled lip, a growl, raised hackles. It was at least a leash correction and often flipping them onto the floor into the alpha rollover. Our dogs learned to never show a sign that they were grumbly. And after a while, we started to see dogs that went from looking absolutely calm to lunging and biting, within a fraction of a second. There was NO way for us to know what it would happen, and no way to give them back their signals. We had taken that ability to communicate completely away from them.

Of course, this then made the dogs dangerous and they couldn't be trusted after that. I can't tell you how sad that made me feel.

I know you want to believe that you were only correcting her for breaking eye contact, but in reality you can surely see that she stopped curling her lip. This isn't because she became more comfortable with the situation! It's because she learned that showing her lip meant being shocked.

If this is the method that you want to continue using, then I really hope that you decide to not show her. I think you are setting her up to be a completely unpredictable dog and it is a huge risk to a judge to touch her. That's not fair to the judges or the stewards that have to be around her during showing.

If you really think that showing her in obedience is what you want, then I suggest you find someone who can help you train her properly and help you teach her to be more comfortable with the stand for exam. You've got a dog that you know has been reactive - you say you've helped her through a lot of that, but are frustrated with the stand. All I can say is that your priorities are a bit off, in my estimation. Using shock to teach a competition behavior is selfish. Why jeopardize the trust between you for something so unimportant? Would you trust someone who used shock to make you stand still so someone could touch you?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Melissa_W · Oct 27, 2006

IliamnasQuest said:

Well, count me in with those who think this was not a good idea.

I see you making all sorts of excuses for using it, but I am extremely disappointed in your trainer who I think let you down big time. She didn't know what to do and so went along with the shock collar idea instead of finding someone who could help you with some new ideas. You may like your trainer, but she's not very good if this is an indication of her methods.

I'm not against the shock collar. I have one, I've used it (recently, in fact) for a dog that tends to run off - a dog that has had extensive recall training and who needs to be able to run and exercise, but has decided that occasionally she needs to take off on her own. This is dangerous and the collar has made a difference for her. But I would never ever consider using it for a dog with Roxy's problem.

From what you described, you have a dog with "issues". She is learning to handle those issues. You can have her by your side and she ignores people. The only time you see a reaction in her is when you tell her "don't you move a foot!" and then you walk away (so she's no longer in her "safety zone") and you expect her to stand there calmly while a stranger invades her space. This is a HUGE trust issue for a dog, especially one with issues already. She's probably feeling trapped, since the person she trusts has insisted that she not move. And then there's this person that she doesn't truly trust who wants to touch her, and the only thing she can do is show her worry by lifting a lip or growling.

Now you've added the fear and pain of a shock to the situation. Granted, it may not be much of a shock, but I can guarantee the dog knows it's there. You can easily teach her to not lift a lip or growl, but it's not fixing the problem. You're just putting a band-aid on it. She's learning that she can't give you the signals that she is uncomfortable. You've taken that away from her.

So now when she's really worried, really uncomfortable because it's some stranger in an obedience ring (a stressful situation already) - she has no way to say "hey, I can't handle this". Dogs like this can go directly to a full-fledged attack without any visual precursors.

I know it sounds dramatic, but unfortunately I've seen it happen more than once. Back in the old days when I first started training, I was taught the Koehler methods. We corrected a dog for any sort of sign of "aggression" - a curled lip, a growl, raised hackles. It was at least a leash correction and often flipping them onto the floor into the alpha rollover. Our dogs learned to never show a sign that they were grumbly. And after a while, we started to see dogs that went from looking absolutely calm to lunging and biting, within a fraction of a second. There was NO way for us to know what it would happen, and no way to give them back their signals. We had taken that ability to communicate completely away from them.

Of course, this then made the dogs dangerous and they couldn't be trusted after that. I can't tell you how sad that made me feel.

I know you want to believe that you were only correcting her for breaking eye contact, but in reality you can surely see that she stopped curling her lip. This isn't because she became more comfortable with the situation! It's because she learned that showing her lip meant being shocked.

If this is the method that you want to continue using, then I really hope that you decide to not show her. I think you are setting her up to be a completely unpredictable dog and it is a huge risk to a judge to touch her. That's not fair to the judges or the stewards that have to be around her during showing.

If you really think that showing her in obedience is what you want, then I suggest you find someone who can help you train her properly and help you teach her to be more comfortable with the stand for exam. You've got a dog that you know has been reactive - you say you've helped her through a lot of that, but are frustrated with the stand. All I can say is that your priorities are a bit off, in my estimation. Using shock to teach a competition behavior is selfish. Why jeopardize the trust between you for something so unimportant? Would you trust someone who used shock to make you stand still so someone could touch you?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

:hail: :hail:

Elegy made some great points too. PLEASE reconsider this method Roxy. Why are you going against the judgement of the people you admire and respect of this board? If I was getting this kind of reaction, I would stop in my tracks. I think you know that you are doing wrong. Is competition that important to you?

whatszmatter · Oct 27, 2006

I think some people are missing the point. She said she exhausted other methods, she's working with a trainer that she is happy with and has helped her bring her dog along ways. The ecollar wasn't the first thing tried, it was the LAST.

Don't feel bad, don't feel ashamed, you did what you and your trainer thought needed to be done. You had the guts to try something you weren't too sure about.

BTW how is Roxy reacting to this, is she leaning away from the person coming to touch her, where are her ears oriented. What's her body posture like. what's her tongue doing?

Good luck in your competiton.

MomOf7 · Oct 27, 2006

Dreeza said:

Exactly.
The world of competitions I am in they are used alot. I would guess 99 percent of the people who do the competitions I do use them. While I understand everyones concern and too thought this way I took the time to learn about the e-collar and how it is used and the benefits from using one.
Again it is a tool for training like any other tool. I only know of 3 people who do not use these. Only one really serious about competing. Though he just bought one about a month ago and is learning how to use it.
Its the same concept as a underground fence. It makes the stimulation up to the dog. The dog already knows what is required. It is not used to correct behavior but to reinforce commands that the dog already knows.
Let me repeat ...it is NOT used to correct behavior. Cadence used it to reinforce a command Roxy already knew. She did not use it to correct behavior. Big difference.
I am proud of Cadence for being open and honest about this.

MomOf7 · Oct 27, 2006

silverpawz said:

Snooty. LOL

Seriously, I know some won't agree with this comment, but I believe dogs are like people in this way, not all dogs like attention from humans all the time. I certainly wouldn't like it if somone came up and hugged me out of the blue, even if I knew them, even if we've hugged before under different circumstance, that doesn't mean I want to hug them all the time, ya know?

I'm not a touchy person. Some dogs are not 'touchy' dogs either.

Now, of course that doesn't mean growling or grumbling is okay and should be tolerated. She's choosing the wrong way to express her dislike of the situation. She could simply move away, but instead she chooses to show aggression. This says she may not respect your trainer. Like her? Sure. But repect and like are two different things.

How would I deal with this.....after pondering it a bit more I think I'd hand over her leash to your trainer and let her work with Roxy a little bit. She needs to learn that all humans are to be respected, and a good way to do that is to let other experienced people work with her and run her through her paces. While of course making the SFE a fun thing.

Here's a quick idea. Grab some squeeze cheese. Ask for the Stand/stay and then start squirting cheese (in small amounts) in her mouth while your trainer touches her. Hopefully she'll be so preoccupied with the cheese she won't care if she's being touched. Over time she'll associated being touched with really yummy food. You can also use some PB in a dixie cup instead. This works better than just giving treats because it's continuous, you don't have to stop inbetween.

The stand doesn't sound like the problem, I'm sure Roxy has a good SFE as long as someone isn't touching her, right? So I'd work on teaching her to respect other people, and try the PB/Cheese trick in the mean time.

I've used e-collars, and still use them with some dogs. I'm not anti-ecollar at all. but I wouldn't use it in this situation. Yes, obedience in a no-nonsense way helped a great deal.

Great post. You raised a good point about teaching Roxy to respect others. Handing over the leash is a good way.

Dreeza · Oct 27, 2006

MomOf7 said:

i actually had no idea they were used so frequently in competitions!!

And yeah, oakley too, knows his commands. In short, one example: oakley would FLIP OUT every time he would see another dog on the walk...he would act SOOO aggressive towards the dog, and would be snapping at us at the same time...it was SCARY...when in reality,had he been able to meet the dog, he woulda been super friendly...

when he was in this crazed state, he wouldnt follow his orders to "sit", "down" etc. Now, he just doesnt get like that at all (unless he is on a leash, but we can easily control him now), and completely ignores the other dog. why? cause he finally got some sense smacked into him that no matter how hard he tried, he was NOT gonna get to play...and all he would get to do was sit there and feel sorry for himself, lol. The shock reinforced the SIT that we were instructing him to do...it had nothing to do with the bad behavior.

he was taught in such a way that he *thinks* we are protecting him from the shock. Like, that we can see it coming, and we tell him what to do to avoid it!!

the results are an incredibly obedient dog when we want, but no less of the "good" oakley personality (the crazy, hyper, spastic, playful dog we all love

) The only time he is in fear that he will get shocked is when we give him a command. He can the obey, knowing nothing will happen...or disobey, and get shocked.

Doberluv · Oct 27, 2006

Again...projecting human intention on the dog's way of thinking according to learning behavior. The intention of the human may be one thing. That doesn't mean that the dog sees it that way. Dogs make associations between things. They do NOT, let me repeat....do not logically work through it all in their heads like people do. A dog who is having this kind of issue, when the "offending" stimulus (the stranger) is close, she gets zapped. It doesn't matter that other behaviors are happening at the same time.....the "watch me" or moving a foot or wagging a tail. The dog doesn't always pick out the right behavior and apply the shock to that one....the one the human is intending to correct. The dog doesn't know that "Oh...this shock is meant for a behavior I already know and didn't do right." Associations are made between stimuli and consequence. Condition and a response. Which condition out of many, the dog does not necessarily choose the one you're intending.

Because this issue the dog is having is so large to the dog, such a strong aversion to strangers, strong enough to elicit a lip curl and growl, you can pretty much guess that this is predominant in the dog's mind at the time she gets zapped. Those two things are most likely being paired. Stranger equals pain or fear.

In fact, you can't be sure that the zap is directly responsible for the dog stopping the lip curl (or picking out that one behavior) or keeping her eyes straight ahead. What could be happening is the dog is simply shutting down all behavior, afraid to move. So indirectly it happens to affect all behavior. What if she perceives the zap to mean, don't do this behavior, don't do that behavior, don't do this other behavior. Everytime I do any of these behaviors, I get zapped. I think what people are trying to tell you is that it doesn't always affect her behavior that she's pairing the zap with. It can be something else going on around her...ie: the stranger touching her.

But for her to be able to discern what your intention is, to pick out one single behavior out of all the behaviors, all the environmental stimuli; to keep her eyes on you....is a complex, human logic, not a dog's.

This is why I hate aversives. Until a dog has had an ample history of reinforcers, (good ones or nasty ones) the dog cannot attach it to any one behavior. The dog is still guessing. So, when you use aversives like this shock, the dog is guessing. Meanwhile, it's so unpleasant that the dog shuts down all kinds of behaviors and makes associations with the outside stimuli most affecting the dog...the stranger touching her.

With good, rewarding reinforcers, the dog is also still guessing for a while. But no shutting down occurs. Simply....behaviors which are not producing a payoff fade away. And the behaviors which bring the payoff are strengthened.

JMO

MomOf7 · Oct 27, 2006

I see what your saying and it makes sense.
I just feel that you dont know enough about using a e-collar to make any kind of judgement. Although I could be wrong?

I use it for reinforcing known commands. I would hate to be out hunting and my dog gets shot because I didnt have controll over it. I cant exactly use a check cord in the field while hunting. We would be a tangled mess:yikes:

Slap me... Used an e-collar :O

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