just plain messy
- Thread starter FoxyWench
- Start date
Borgart so that if there was health testing and he got his championship its still wrong? I guess I am so wrong too. I hope to breed Kat in the future. If we had an oops would people jump on me? She is not health tested nor titled at this point.
How is the intention to do something right a problem?
But even lets say you don't think dogs should be bred (for example) its nice to know people are guilty before they even DO anything.
How is the intention to do something right a problem?
But even lets say you don't think dogs should be bred (for example) its nice to know people are guilty before they even DO anything.
see for me a single venue doesn't make me happy. I won't blast people, but to me a dog needs to do more. OR there are people like me who will take a gamble on occasion. Twist was 7 when I got her for one last litter. I didn't have time to go out and title her. But in my 'gut' I knew her puppies would rock. And they did.
no i think he should have all his testing done BEFORE any breeding was done.
and by intention i mean yes she intended to breed them then she should have **** well made sure they did not breed. and i dont for one minute believe it was her mom who let them get together , the other boards and lies speak volumes.
and by intention i mean yes she intended to breed them then she should have **** well made sure they did not breed. and i dont for one minute believe it was her mom who let them get together , the other boards and lies speak volumes.
This is the part where it is an "oops" Meaning non intentional, accidental etc. Now you can choose to believe or not that this is an oops. I do believe it as it wasn't good timing for Foxy...
But the whole idea of it being planned for the future should have no bearing on that. I plan many things in the future lol.
But the whole idea of it being planned for the future should have no bearing on that. I plan many things in the future lol.
I didn't say that I would be happy with that. I said at the extreme minimum.
You also have to look at your experience with breeding/genetics. She'd only ever bred a chihuahua litter before. She didn't have alot of crested experience to draw from, or an experienced mentor. I wouldn't say she had an instinct for the breed/pairing the breed yet.
I also think there is history with her doing this. Dodger and Vixie were supposed to have some titles (maybe), too. It was nebulous, and the right stud for a bitch is hardly always the one they live with. It's supicious for two different bitches in a row to breed with a stud they live with.
You also have to look at your experience with breeding/genetics. She'd only ever bred a chihuahua litter before. She didn't have alot of crested experience to draw from, or an experienced mentor. I wouldn't say she had an instinct for the breed/pairing the breed yet.
I also think there is history with her doing this. Dodger and Vixie were supposed to have some titles (maybe), too. It was nebulous, and the right stud for a bitch is hardly always the one they live with. It's supicious for two different bitches in a row to breed with a stud they live with.
Yes her health tested dog, Ruby who is elbows and hip clear - that's not in the OFA database at all, under ANY part of her supposed registered name.
How about Jasper, who doesn't appear to even really be AKC registered, unless the name she put on her website is incorrect (yes I did a search on AKC's website through my account, no dogs with that name found...imagine that!)
This isn't a case of an OOPS litter from parents that should be bred or should have even thought of being bred. If you believe that Ruby really is a therapy dog after all the other lies and deception, I feel that's a naive belief. We've heard Foxy's tales of woe about not having money, well I think she found her solution.
We don't promote BYB's and Puppy Mills because it encourages these people to breed dogs without health testing (yep, check on this breeder) and with potential health problems, hey who knows what they might have, no health testing recorded even using a wide search and non specific just in case...
You tell me, if I went out and bought a dog from the pet store today, came back and posted how cute and fluffy it was and that it came from Pets-r-us or wherever...we'd be hearing the story on how my money just went to someone who is breeding dogs for profit, which I thought was a pretty unacceptable thing around here...Oh wait, that's only for people that aren't well known members.
What about that Dachshund breeder? She obviously cares for her dogs, takes care of them and all...but her breeding ethics weren't up to snuff (strikingly similar to Foxy's) and those who are defending Foxy were jumping on that person. I'm not saying either one of them is right in what they are doing, and Foxy **** well knows better just like MMorlino does, still a BYB just the same and if someone on here had said they got a puppy from her, I'd expected the same results as "why would you buy from a breeder that you know isn't doing health testing etc, you just encouraged them to breed more by buying that puppy" spiel.
However, everyone was fast to point out her flaws and lies and BS and consider it unacceptable, yet Foxy gets the benefit of the doubt when she's admitted to lying? She should obviously know better at this point, even being a former moderator on this forum...
Nothing against Foxy, I like her a lot and enjoyed her posts...but good God, defend one BYB that lies and is deceptive - is that someone you really want to buy a puppy from? You don't know what you're getting, hell most of us can't even distinguish the truth from the abhorrent BS she's posted about these dogs before.
How about Jasper, who doesn't appear to even really be AKC registered, unless the name she put on her website is incorrect (yes I did a search on AKC's website through my account, no dogs with that name found...imagine that!)
This isn't a case of an OOPS litter from parents that should be bred or should have even thought of being bred. If you believe that Ruby really is a therapy dog after all the other lies and deception, I feel that's a naive belief. We've heard Foxy's tales of woe about not having money, well I think she found her solution.
We don't promote BYB's and Puppy Mills because it encourages these people to breed dogs without health testing (yep, check on this breeder) and with potential health problems, hey who knows what they might have, no health testing recorded even using a wide search and non specific just in case...
You tell me, if I went out and bought a dog from the pet store today, came back and posted how cute and fluffy it was and that it came from Pets-r-us or wherever...we'd be hearing the story on how my money just went to someone who is breeding dogs for profit, which I thought was a pretty unacceptable thing around here...Oh wait, that's only for people that aren't well known members.
What about that Dachshund breeder? She obviously cares for her dogs, takes care of them and all...but her breeding ethics weren't up to snuff (strikingly similar to Foxy's) and those who are defending Foxy were jumping on that person. I'm not saying either one of them is right in what they are doing, and Foxy **** well knows better just like MMorlino does, still a BYB just the same and if someone on here had said they got a puppy from her, I'd expected the same results as "why would you buy from a breeder that you know isn't doing health testing etc, you just encouraged them to breed more by buying that puppy" spiel.
However, everyone was fast to point out her flaws and lies and BS and consider it unacceptable, yet Foxy gets the benefit of the doubt when she's admitted to lying? She should obviously know better at this point, even being a former moderator on this forum...
Nothing against Foxy, I like her a lot and enjoyed her posts...but good God, defend one BYB that lies and is deceptive - is that someone you really want to buy a puppy from? You don't know what you're getting, hell most of us can't even distinguish the truth from the abhorrent BS she's posted about these dogs before.
Kaiden and Twist were my first litter.....
Though genetics is a passion of mine its always part gut part science. How do you or I know what she knows about cresties. Do you know Foxy (just curious)? I don't know these things but I am not going to **** someone for good intentions unless they drop the ball..
Though genetics is a passion of mine its always part gut part science. How do you or I know what she knows about cresties. Do you know Foxy (just curious)? I don't know these things but I am not going to **** someone for good intentions unless they drop the ball..
Dekka "Though genetics is a passion of mine its always part gut part science. How do you or I know what she knows about cresties. Do you know Foxy (just curious)? I don't know these things but I am not going to **** someone for good intentions unless they drop the ball.. "
She also posted on the crested boards. She was new to them.
For the rest, she has, at the minimum, lied to people who trusted her. I'm judging the actions even if the intentions were good.
She also posted on the crested boards. She was new to them.
For the rest, she has, at the minimum, lied to people who trusted her. I'm judging the actions even if the intentions were good.
I didn't find out that Mia's breeder placed ads like that until way after I had Mia. I found out because someone on another dog forum was berating me about buying from one of 'those breeders'. My initial reaction was shock and horror (and admittedly praying chaz never saw those ads) then I stopped and thought a moment and decided the ads mean nothing about quality of the dog.
I agree that it is probably the minority of breeders on those sites that are reputable, but if no good breeders advertise that way how can pet homes find good breeders? We only found out about good and not good breeders because we had a friend who competed with shelties who sold us a dog. My others were from terrible breeders. We got Nikki at 5 weeks old for example. I wish more good breeders would get out there and start competing with the bad ones.
I have asked Mia's breeder and another that also puts up ads on those sites. They have actually found a few good homes through them.
I actually don't understand the notion that good breeders don't advertise but that's probably too much of a tangent.
Going to read more of the thread...
I agree that it is probably the minority of breeders on those sites that are reputable, but if no good breeders advertise that way how can pet homes find good breeders? We only found out about good and not good breeders because we had a friend who competed with shelties who sold us a dog. My others were from terrible breeders. We got Nikki at 5 weeks old for example. I wish more good breeders would get out there and start competing with the bad ones.
I have asked Mia's breeder and another that also puts up ads on those sites. They have actually found a few good homes through them.
I actually don't understand the notion that good breeders don't advertise but that's probably too much of a tangent.
Going to read more of the thread...
This is my biggest problem.
Mmorlino was completely demolished on this forum time and time again for her breeding practices. I see these two instances as very similar. No health testing, young parent, etc. I don't even have a problem that people are okay with this breeding, really. I DO have a problem that people seem to pick and choose when it's okay. It is either okay or it's not. It just doesn't sit well with me that people defend one member but condemn another for the same thing.
I don't expect us all to agree on breeding ethics. It's never going to happen. But I just really have an issue with what seems to me to be preferential treatment for older members when it comes to things like these. If it had been a newbie then the reactions would have been much different.
Mmorlino was completely demolished on this forum time and time again for her breeding practices. I see these two instances as very similar. No health testing, young parent, etc. I don't even have a problem that people are okay with this breeding, really. I DO have a problem that people seem to pick and choose when it's okay. It is either okay or it's not. It just doesn't sit well with me that people defend one member but condemn another for the same thing.
I don't expect us all to agree on breeding ethics. It's never going to happen. But I just really have an issue with what seems to me to be preferential treatment for older members when it comes to things like these. If it had been a newbie then the reactions would have been much different.
Exactly, and if someone wants to say it's because MMorlino had multiple dogs she was breeding and Foxy doesn't...well, let's look back on the Von Dominus threads - that's probably a more accurate comparison and he was "run off" the forum as well, and as much as I love his dog Ty and would love to have a puppy, I bet that'd go over like a fart in church as well. Too bad the people who ran him off and dug up all the dirt on him to prove him to be a liar are still some of the same that are defending this action, which has also been proved to be a bunch of lies...
The difference there is, he admitted to breeding them intentionally, he lied about health testing and titles (sound familiar?) and then he was evil and bad and OMG he bred dogs without health tests or titles...the horror of it all. But when someone we respect does it, it's all ok? BTW I missed the Fila thread since I wasn't on Chaz so I can't say anything to that effect.
The difference there is, he admitted to breeding them intentionally, he lied about health testing and titles (sound familiar?) and then he was evil and bad and OMG he bred dogs without health tests or titles...the horror of it all. But when someone we respect does it, it's all ok? BTW I missed the Fila thread since I wasn't on Chaz so I can't say anything to that effect.
To me the biggest issue with MMorlino was the fact that she thought what she did was just great. She made claims about her dogs that were not exactly true. Where as Foxy agrees that health testing and such are important, and as far as I know is not misrepresenting the puppies.
If any breeder thinks there is no room for improvement, or claims that the puppies are all show worthy when none of them have shown, been assessed or parents have shown.. then I have issues
If any breeder thinks there is no room for improvement, or claims that the puppies are all show worthy when none of them have shown, been assessed or parents have shown.. then I have issues
I agree that health testing and such is important, but if I breed a dog without it, does that make me any less guilty? Intentional or not, the result is the same. Just because someone says "this is important to me" and then goes out and does otherwise, doesn't give me a lot of faith that it's truly what they believe.
A large part of that, though, is innate because when you KNOW someone and have come to like them over a period of time, it's human to find it more difficult to judge and condemn them out of hand.
I think this speaks to the fact that we should be LESS harsh, across the board. Not necessarily that anyone should compromise their strong feelings or ethics, but be civil and give others the courtesy of explaining their side without coming after them, guns a-blazin', tar, feathers and noose ready.
Watching good people, decent, humane, genuinely NICE people turn haughty and downright nasty and self-righteously vicious sometimes . . . well, it's the one thing that -- and I think I can speak for all the mods on this -- makes us dread logging on sometimes.
Are some things just WRONG? Oh, DEFINITELY. But after you flog a dead horse for so long, well, it's just carrion and it's disconcerting to see how much enjoyment some seem to derive from continuing to stir the stink.
I think this speaks to the fact that we should be LESS harsh, across the board. Not necessarily that anyone should compromise their strong feelings or ethics, but be civil and give others the courtesy of explaining their side without coming after them, guns a-blazin', tar, feathers and noose ready.
Watching good people, decent, humane, genuinely NICE people turn haughty and downright nasty and self-righteously vicious sometimes . . . well, it's the one thing that -- and I think I can speak for all the mods on this -- makes us dread logging on sometimes.
Are some things just WRONG? Oh, DEFINITELY. But after you flog a dead horse for so long, well, it's just carrion and it's disconcerting to see how much enjoyment some seem to derive from continuing to stir the stink.
As for Mmorlino. agree with her breeding practices or not..atleast she was HONEST about them!
her and foxy don't really belong in the same group/example..in my opinion. its two totally different animals
Its just interesting that Mmorlino was attacked A LOT more than foxy. when honestly, if I had to pick between the two to get a puppy from.. Id pick Mmorlino. her dogs are health tested and shes not perfect but shes honest about what she does and her dogs.
_____
Advertising is a tool, its how its USED that makes a breeder good or bad.
I think advertising can be fine. as long as, no questions asked, you cant go click a big paypal button under the ad and put down a puppy deposit. or the ad lies or uses wording like "teacup" or "super special rare" or some nonsense.
I think a tasteful advertisement with pictures of parent/puppies and information on how to find out more is a good idea.
I think its great because now average joe looking for a puppy can find a great breeder and find out more information.. not everyone knows to go to breed clubs etc..
___
as for foxy. I am just plain ol CONFUSED
Oops litters happen. I get that, nobody is perfect. anybody with intact dogs can have an accident like that happen.
and I agree that these pups deserve great homes and that she loves her dogs!
but an oops litter owner with a breeder website and puppies priced up to $1000 (w/breeding rights) with little to no history, health testing, records or anything on sire Or dam ...
$800+ for each puppy.. FOR WHAT?! she didn't have any whelping problems, they aren't titled, no pedigrees to speak of,health testing done is minimal, they arent being shipped...
im sorry, but to me, that is not the result of an innocent owner who just had 2 intact dogs and an accidental litter.
her and foxy don't really belong in the same group/example..in my opinion. its two totally different animals
Its just interesting that Mmorlino was attacked A LOT more than foxy. when honestly, if I had to pick between the two to get a puppy from.. Id pick Mmorlino. her dogs are health tested and shes not perfect but shes honest about what she does and her dogs.
_____
Advertising is a tool, its how its USED that makes a breeder good or bad.
I think advertising can be fine. as long as, no questions asked, you cant go click a big paypal button under the ad and put down a puppy deposit. or the ad lies or uses wording like "teacup" or "super special rare" or some nonsense.
I think a tasteful advertisement with pictures of parent/puppies and information on how to find out more is a good idea.
I think its great because now average joe looking for a puppy can find a great breeder and find out more information.. not everyone knows to go to breed clubs etc..
___
as for foxy. I am just plain ol CONFUSED
Oops litters happen. I get that, nobody is perfect. anybody with intact dogs can have an accident like that happen.
and I agree that these pups deserve great homes and that she loves her dogs!
but an oops litter owner with a breeder website and puppies priced up to $1000 (w/breeding rights) with little to no history, health testing, records or anything on sire Or dam ...
$800+ for each puppy.. FOR WHAT?! she didn't have any whelping problems, they aren't titled, no pedigrees to speak of,health testing done is minimal, they arent being shipped...
im sorry, but to me, that is not the result of an innocent owner who just had 2 intact dogs and an accidental litter.
Last edited: