Cropping and docking illegal in New York

My reason for docking is different.. I was asking if different reasons were 'more' or 'less' worthy.

I don't know..it changed my mind on docking for working dogs but not for pets. THat is the whole point of a debate. Both sides should be able to give forth from their own experiences, the facts, and beliefs. I think it should be discussed at nauseum (sp?) before any law becomes a law. I would truly like to know the stats of injuries from countries that no longer practice it. IF anyone knows them it would be great to see.

IF dogs could talk i bet they would have alot more to day about alot of what we do.

They would.. lol I am sure Mr Milan would not have many clients for one. But in a way you 'can' ask dogs. IME its not hard for anyone intuative and observant.

Take pups after a crop.. they show less discomfort and upset than they would after a s/n. Is it painless? Not likely.. but then many things we do in life isnt' painless. (an old dog running through the woods will likely feel joint pain.. but that doesn't make it bad) If the pups never act down, keep playing, don't mind the stitched area handled.. well they are saying its not hurting, or at least no more than it does when they play with each other.

Legislators just plain old need to keep their noses out of it. Period.

We've become so dependent on laws and legislation to dictate morality and ethics to us that we're becoming a species that has no personal morals or ethics -- most think as we're told, and in the long run, that's more destructive than any number of people who are going to choose to crop or dock.

And yes, it pains me to see a beautiful little Pittie with cropped ears.

Since I had a complete hysterectomy myself i can honestly say that does hurt alot more than per say a broken to or even a couple seperated ribs with a crack. I don't think that is a fair comparison.

The problem with that is that there's no good way to only dock the working dogs unless a breeder is only producing pets, and that wouldn't be a breeder I would choose to buy from. A working bred litter may have a pet quality pup or two, but at 3 days old, it's impossible to know.

THen maybe that should be addressed. Maybe there should be a working dog exception.
IF your just breeding pets byb..mills and not out there showing and trialing you would be exempt. I would be happy for even that much. IF your breeding field and trial field...it could be a way to prove your doing so. AT least all the pet ones out there would be spared. Just brainstorming because there ought to be an answer to both. LEt the ring have both choices. It isn't that way now is it? OR is it? I know nothing about bench.

Depends where you live if it's a choice. You can show a tailed cocker in Canada. Less likely to win, but some have attained CHs here. In the AKC ring you are removed from the ring. Even if you are a big name handler as some have tried.

That said some of the dogs winning in Canada have gone on to have adult tail amputations after proving they could do just so they could show state side.. Wish those people had simply docked at 3 days.

THat's my point, it shouldn't make one ounce of difference.

I do think that different reasons are more or less worthy. IF you do it because you like the way it looks then i would deffinatly see that in a negative light. IF you are doing it so it doesn't rip the tail (i will never see a reason for ears) on an acacia tree...then yes i would agree that it needs to be done. THat is JUST my opinion. IF it is against your personal beliefs yet you have to comply for the ring to consider your dog better looking than one that isn't, that is not fair and should be stopped by applying pressure to the people that make the "rules".

What does a cocker with a tail look like, anyway?

The only 'decent' show ring worthy Am. cockers I've seen with tails have been ones from AU.. But they show them in a way where the hide the end behind their hand so it gives the illusion in all stacks that it doesn't exist.. Making it hard to actually see what theirs look like... Making me think if you are hiding it.. go dock it.

Only tailed Am. cockers I see here are byb'd or milled.. Tails can be thick and out of proportion lab like.. Little more whippy.. Less fur, more. There is no standard..

English cockers I've seen here often have setter tails though.. I'd be less offended if American cocker tails looked like that. Long flowy fur.. Never asked the agility people here where their dogs come from to see why their breeders made the choice or if they were rescues... And the past while I haven't seen any form of cockers in agility near me..

Im not used to seeing them with tails..
so it looks kind of odd to me



but this one seems like the tail kinda matches


just thought the pics would be interesting to see

Both look like ENGLISH cockers (though the first one could be a really out of standard american.. but it looks really long in the face) ... With the tail that is usually setter like..

If you want to see less C/D, petition the breed clubs. The parent club tells the AKC what the breed standard should be. Those are the "people that make the rules", not legislators.

Consider this -

Mandatory spay/neuter sometimes includes an exemption for dogs who are shown in conformation.
Banning cropping and docking makes it impossible to show in conformation.
Breeders cannot C/D and therefore cannot show and therefore cannot keep their dogs intact.

Just thought this would be interesting..










Is it just me, or does putting a tail on change the dogs general appearance A LOT? I didn't think it would make a diffrence but these dogs just look so strickingly different to me

oh and sorry about the cocker confusion mafia, I dont know a lot about cocker spaniels

Nice pics. I had never seen a rottie with a tail. THe boxer is just fine too.

It's nice to see dogs in their natural state .

I didn't mean that there was anything WRONG with these dogs. all dogs are beautiful in their own way to diffrent people. I just was commenting on how different they looked to me with a tail

And that's just yet another problem with docking/cropping bans. Now instead of focusing on other far more important aspects that need to be improved upon in a breed, breeders suddenly have to start trying to breed for proper tail and ear sets. My dobe breeder/friend went to Crufts last year and this year, and talked to quite a few Doberman breeders there about their thoughts on the tails and honestly, it didn't sound like the majority were too thrilled with the ban at all for lots of reasons, but mainly due to the above. They felt very much the same about the ears too, many of them.



Personally, it's my opinion that if you don't own or wish to own a traditionally cropped/docked breed, then it doesn't really affect you and you should let those of us who do own them decide what to do about ears/tails for ourselves. You're more than welcome to your opinion, as we all are, but it seems most of the people against it seem to be those who think they know what it all entails, but really don't unfortunately. I have seen pictures of completely "natural" Dobermans that I've liked, and would still own Dobes if C/D were banned here. That said, I much prefer cropped and docked for various reasons.

I dind't say Fransheska that there was anything wrong with them. Imo there is everything right with them. BUt that is for me, obviously not for all others. Just very nice to see. I have never seen a rottie with a tail or a boxer either. LOts of boxers around here with ears but no tails. I enjoyed seeing them naturally. Thank you for posting.

I do think it is interesting reading everyone's perspective and why.