Wales bans shock collars

[corgipower]

You gonna pay for that then?

And you expect people to what - go to lessons?

How exactly would that work.

How that would work would be the same way it does now - someone starts an organization with a purpose, they advertise, they seek donations. If people like what is presented, they contribute money.

That organization, rather than spending their time and money lobbying legislators and running PSA's to promote legislation, would use the time and money to educate the public. Ads on TV, internet, newspapers, magazines, brochures, flyers -- all the same stuff that's currently done when someone wants to promote legislation. They can educate to people that dogs are living animals who require a certain level of responsibility and commitment - time, money commitment. They can educate the public on how to find a qualified trainer.

And I could go to work tomorrow and be killed by a rogue lion escaped from the zoo.

There are ALWAYS crazy case scenarios - it doesn't mean I constantly walk around with my lion felling equipment.

Make sure your collar and lead fit and aren't old.

Not fitting and being old aren't the only factors that cause equipment to fall off. Leashes, by design, can become unclipped. Collars, by design, can become unbuckled. I'm not worried about a rogue lion. It's up to the zookeepers to take measures to prevent the lion's escape, just as it's my responsibility to ensure my dog doesn't escape.

Dogs don't get a say in it or a choice whether they like the training method or not.

People who mistreat a dog with an ecollar are going to mistreat a dog without an ecollar.

 

[SpringerLover]

However, I notice that a lot of the people posting against them have no experience with shock collars, or electric fences . . .

I grew up on a farm... we had electric and barbed wire fences for cattle.

I've also used a shock collar. It's not that the whole thing was unsuccessful (though it was), more the fact that my dog was not making a conscious decision in the matter.

 

[release the hounds]

Sound like really ethical trainers - sure they're fabulous.

actually some of them are. Representing their nations on world teams and all, giving seminars around the world, among many other things.

 

[Angelique]

why is everyone always so interested in everyone else's **** business??????????

Because some folks believe they are wise and everyone else is stupid.

So, they must push for and support laws which control others' choices of which breeds of dogs we are allowed to own, which training methods we are allowed to study, and which training tools we are allowed to use.

Because sometimes the beliefs and personal crusade becomes more important than reality, or the life of a dog, or the life of any living being that dog comes in contact with.

It's all about the self rightious control of others.

 

[Jules]

Emergency Recall

 

[Dizzy]

Because some folks believe they are wise and everyone else is stupid.

So, they must push for and support laws which control others' choices of which breeds of dogs we are allowed to own, which training methods we are allowed to study, and which training tools we are allowed to use.

Because sometimes the beliefs and personal cusade becomes more important than reality, or the life of a dog, or the life of any living being that dog comes in contact with.

It's all about the self rightious control of others.

That's how I feel when BSL is brought and linked to EVERY single dog issue. It's insanity.

Maybe we should just leave the world free of laws?

Would that suit you best?

You live in the 'land of the free' - but I bet you I have more freedoms with my dog.

Easy.

 

[Dizzy]

Emergency Recall

:hail:

 

[bubbatd]

When I first got Chip he had a horrible re-call !!! Obviously his former owners scolded him when he didn't come and they got him . Took a while , but the treats and praise when he came back to me sure paid off !

 

[release the hounds]

i've used an ecollar for exactly one exercise and found it invaluable.

In schutzhund you have to run blinds in a methodical order, zig zagging across the field. We spent in 2 years time, at least one time per week (session, not reps) teaching blinds.

First we start with straight in, then from the side, then from the middle of the field. Every single time, for hundreds if not thousands of reps, there is a helper in the blind, and the dog gets a reward with a bite.

When the dog is tearing ass from the middle of the field to the blind, we switch to 2 blinds. Both blinds are baited with a helper the excites the dog to come to that blind. After the dog is running both fast and clean, we introduce the empty blind, which I have also been training as a seperate exercise. I send the dog to a blind, and the act of going around and empty blind gets a reward witha tug game from me when he returns.

That way the dog knows, helper in blind, stop and bark, empty blind, go on back to pappa, he's got the good stuff.

So this story doesn't get too long we proceed in much the same manner teaching one, then two, then 3, then 4...5...6 blinds.

At some point in training with every dog i have ever seen, they get to an empty blind, and they think they know best where they helper is. Instead of following your direction, they want to go to where they think.

at this point many things can happen, the handler gives a verbal, the handler has the dog on a long leash, the handler does nothing, the dog goes to the blind, and the helper throws down the sleeve and the dog gets no rewad, no bite, no play, no fight no nothing, just do it over. Some dogs that's great for, my dog finds you, she's going to bark, and bark and bark, if you move, she's going to bite you, with or without the sleeve.

In our case, she never got to the live blind, the one with the helper, I have very good verbal control, as soon as I could see she not thinking about coming back to me, rather she wanted to cut a corner and head straight to the live blind, she'd get a "NO" and then back to me, and we'd start over. For months and months we repeated this over and over again. backed up and loaded all the blinds to try and keep her guessing and mess with her mind a little. We'd show helpers in some blinds then distract her and move them so she never knew where they were, and she'd learn that by my guidance, i'd get her to where she wanted to go.

But it still didn't change that after 2 empty blinds, she wanted to skip the third and head to the fourth.

I guess I lied, i've used the ecollar for more, but only for conditioning so in the event I ever needed one, she'd associate the stimulation as a correction, not something from outerspace. Using low levels for a leave it and a little proofing on the down. I had to entice her to screw up, then verbal and low level stim. So it was never used to teach anything, but it does need to be introduced in a way so they understand what it is. For this instance that was appropriate to me.


So back to the exercise. Well I decided to use the ecollar after 2 years. She was pretty good without, but it needed to be more precise. Trial day, I can't yell, "NO" in between blinds. Instead when she looked like she was thinking of heading somewhere other than back to me after checking an empty blind she was "nicked" and when she came around and was heading back to me for direction she didn't. There was consequence other than no reward, and it took exactly 2 sessions for this to be cleaned up.

It was a level 2 stimulation, i don't know what she feels, but I know I barely feel it, and most of my family don't register anything to level 3 or higher

Some dogs need consequence more than just no reward, or no more playtime. The ecollar was far more effective than my already very effective voice, it was surely a lot easier than using a long line that could get wrapped around a blind and "correct" a dog for no reason thus causing more confusion to the dog.

all of you opposed to the ecollar and want it banned, what may I ask did I not do, or that I did, that would warrent me, as an ethical, dog loving person that likes to train for high levels, to be looked upon as a bad person?, bad trainer?, criminal???

 

[Lilavati]

Emergency Recall

A wonderful thing. However, it doesn't always work. They still have to hear you. That's the problem we're trying to get across. The ecollar isn't supposed to make them come back . . . its to get their attention.

However, I think what we have here is NOT a disagreement about e-collars. Its a deeper disagreement that arises whenever you have a debate about a practice or object that is pretty much harmless in itself, but can use used improperly, especially if improper use harms children or animals.

Its the question of do we punish the responsible along with the irresponsible. To an extent, the ongoing feud between some of our members, who will not be named here, comes from this question. And it CAN be a tough question. Worse, its a question that many people, in good conscience are going to answer differently, either because of different philosophies, or different experience with the item itself. There will also be differing viewpoints about the use of education. I

 

[Juicy]

''In the wrong hands anything can become a torture device.''

 

[Squishy22]

I haven't read the entire thread. I dont really care to get into the debate and get all flustered. I just want to state my own opinion here.

Know whats funny? I bet if you ask any dog that has an e-collar (properly used), will tell you that they are still happy go lucky dogs. It probably doesn't even phase them as far as quality of life goes. I think people make more of a deal out of this than the dogs in question would. lol.

Dogs can catch on VERY quickly.

 

[Squishy22]

I grew up on a farm... we had electric and barbed wire fences for cattle.

I've also used a shock collar. It's not that the whole thing was unsuccessful (though it was), more the fact that my dog was not making a conscious decision in the matter.

See, dogs do catch on pretty **** quickly (at least the ones I have experience with). THEY are the ones that choose to get a correction or not when it comes to the e-collar. The control is in their hands. They do have a decision in the matter.

 

[SmexyPibble]

Nor did I read this whole thread, but PERSONALLY, and this being my own opinion, I have no problem with choke chains, prong collars, or shockers. The problem is them ending up in the wrong hands. I've use chokers and prongs on my dogs, but only if they absolutly need them when on walks. I always remove the prong collars from the dog when I am done using it on the walk as they CAN cause damage and WILL cause damage in the wrong hands. As for choke chains, I have NO doubt they cannot easily choke a dog to death; which is why they need to be in the right hands. Choke chains are to be snapped when a dog misbehaves, not tightened to hang the dog in the air for a few minutes. And as for shock collars or electric fences, they can cause damage, too. But if used correctly, they're great training tools. It's be much more devastating if a fence-jumping dog jumped over the wooden fence and got thrown down the street by a speeding car, wouldn't it? If used correctly, these training tools very well could save the dog's or somebody elses life!

See, all of these collars CAN cause damage, but they WON'T if they are used correctly. SO, over all, my OWN opinion is.. they're training tools, and I wouldn't want them banned or it could be more hazardous when a dog with a nylon collar snaps it or yanks his owner down the street mercilesly because a nylon collar wouldn't correct a high-strung dog worth crap!

 

[2dogmom]

''In the wrong hands anything can become a torture device.''

Exactly. Even crates. But you don't see anyone calling for them to be banned, despite the fact that they are so widely misused.

 

[corgipower]

Exactly. Even crates. But you don't see anyone calling for them to be banned, despite the fact that they are so widely misused.

Hush you

That is very possibly on the way.

 

[Angelique]

Exactly. Even crates. But you don't see anyone calling for them to be banned, despite the fact that they are so widely misused.

Um-kay, everyone who lives in a country where crating your dog is illegal (in any way), raise your hand!

(gonna go hide my knives, forks, and spoons)

 

[Juicy]

Um-kay, everyone who lives in a country where crating your dog is illegal (in any way), raise your hand!

(gonna go hide my knives, forks, and spoons)

Well with the anti-tethering laws now...I bet ar people are planning to ban crates too.

 

[Squishy22]

Looking at things realistically...

Prongs, choke chains, crates, tie outs, spiked collars, debarking, and head halters are all going to be banned.

Ban this, ban that, ban everything else. If someone is going to abuse their dog, they are going to do it whether they use a shock collar or not. People use different ways of training. Just like different parents use different methods of correcting their children. Not everyone one is going to agree with your method.

 

[Juicy]

Heck nylon collars can be abusive, I've this one person pick their dogs up in mid-air by a dog's collar, because they ran out the into the streets nearly choking the dog to 'teach it a lesson'.