To treat or not to treat?

Domestika

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#61
In my limited experience--since thankfully anencephaly is rare, the organs are usually unusable because you have to wait for the baby to stop breathing entirely, or, if you can't get permission to take it off the vent, for systems to shut down.

It is actually not so easy to declare someone with no brain to be brain dead. Even when the parents want it.

So the premium organs, like heart and liver and kidneys are usually gone.
Ok, stupid stupid question and I apologise...but when do you usually harvest organs? I mean, what is the standard practise? What if someone dies at the hospital of like...a heart attack or something. They just spontaneously die...can you use the organs? Do they have to be breathing up until the moment you take the organs? Like, how quickly do the organs become unviable once someone dies?
 

bubbatd

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#62
That's the problem ..... how disabled will they be . Nash may be " slow " but a joy to all of us !! He enjoys all normal 8 yr old things and will be in 3rd grade next year . And yes , we were blessed ! He didn't have any heart issue like so many have . His parents are the best !!! I'm so blessed to have him as a Grandson !
 

smkie

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#63
GRammy Nash is so very high functioning. It really isn't the same thing imo as the people i cared for. THey had no quality of life. THere was no joy. Someone that cries the whole time they are awake would break your heart. INFantile or worse. I had one man you had to quick get the ice cubes out of his drink or he would swallow them whole. THat is how he ate, inbetween sleeping. THat was it for him. Deaf, mute, and in a world of his own. EVen he was better off then the little woman i told you about.
 

Domestika

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#64
GRammy Nash is so very high functioning. It really isn't the same thing imo as the people i cared for. THey had no quality of life. THere was no joy. Someone that cries the whole time they are awake would break your heart. INFantile or worse. I had one man you had to quick get the ice cubes out of his drink or he would swallow them whole. THat is how he ate, inbetween sleeping. THat was it for him. Deaf, mute, and in a world of his own. EVen he was better off then the little woman i told you about.
That is really, really sad. When I hear things that like it really makes me wonder how anyone could want and choose for someone to live their entire life like that. I understand the sacredness of life and all that...but I don't think life should be pain. The definitely of "life" should include "ability to enjoy". Doesn't mean you HAVE to enjoy your life...a lot of people are really miserable. But they at least have the option. But when someone's entire "life" is waking, crying and sleeping...I don't know. For me that even crosses over into...is it fair to FORCE this person to continue to live for another 40 years? They don't have the ability to make their own decisions (ie. suicide) so at what point do we as a society acknowledge that a life isn't worth living.

Now THAT is a slippery slope if I ever saw one. I would never make a definitive judgement on that issue, but there are definitely shades of grey there.
 

Domestika

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#65
That's the problem ..... how disabled will they be . Nash may be " slow " but a joy to all of us !! He enjoys all normal 8 yr old things and will be in 3rd grade next year . And yes , we were blessed ! He didn't have any heart issue like so many have . His parents are the best !!! I'm so blessed to have him as a Grandson !
I suppose there's no way to know the severity of the syndrome before birth? I'm not familiar with testing..is it either a "yes they have it" or "no they don't"?

It always breaks my heart a little to see highly functional people with Down Syndrome. My brother-in-law is no different from a 1 year old. His body is 32 but he is mentally no different than an infant. Hard not to just feel sad about it. :/
 

smkie

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#66
IT aslo keeps me from ever considering giving up because if you have to come back...you might come back like that. It was that bad. I have never had such a hard job as when i worked in a building with 50 profoundly challanged. ONe young man...they didn't know if he could hear or see anything or not. I was using some bright flash Christmas cards in an attempt of an activity. THe gold card caught the light and it flashed it's reflection across his eyes. Patrick laughed. THat was the first time i had ever seen him react to anything and i had Patrick in at least one group a day for a year. THat job was the hardest on me mentally and physically of any job i ever had. IT depressed me to my core. WE had one higher functioning group. I had a print out of a brain and was talking about the different parts and what they do which was a surprisingly active conversation. THey had questions and lots of them. THen these people that take markers and color everything bright colors with energetic lines, used only the dark browns and black and colored their "brain" in tight hard scratches. I walked away from that activity thinking i had a bit of insight in how they felt.

Best activity i ever did with them was when we took the word spring.. and made a poem by using words that started with the letter. They coudln't come up with the words themselves or for some even say them, so i just started saying all the words i could think of and walking around the group. THey would light up on a certain word and raise their hand and i would write it down for them. EAch person had their own poem and was careful to color around the letters instead of over them . Instead of leaving the papers on the table or throwing them on the floor they smashed them into their backpacks and pockets. THat was probably the one time i felt we truly had a successful activity that let them express themselves. IT was a very hard job and i took coming up with activity plans seriously. THey were tired and bored with folding washclothes. Even at this level it is not an easy life. Behaviors become dangerous as well as unpleasant when a man weighs a couple hundred pounds and it hurts a great deal when an older adult falls because of a bad gait as compared to the easier to manage little child stage. People don't want to be around so much and they know it. THese people in my higher functioning group could enjoy a television program or a meal but they were about one 5th of the 50 there. The rest had such a hard exisitance and the care out there can be horrid. I don't know what the answer is on who should stay or who should not. BUt we are not doing something right when their is only brainstem function left.
 
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bubbatd

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#67
That's the problem with DS ,,, so many abort before they know of the severity . Anymore I don't think of Nash with a disability . I feel blessed by having him as a grandboy ! He's such a joy to all of us ! When I was doing TDI with Bubba I met so many kids with " issues " and their parents had nothing but love and devotion to them . Bless the families with disabled kids and what they do for them !!!
 

zoe08

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#68
Also about the people with DS years ago didn't even get the options that people with DS now have. They may have thrived more and been able to do more if they weren't deemed incapable before given a chance. I think so many people with DS now are like Nash, because now they are being treated like humans and given opportunities, and they can live happy lives.

You can not determine the severity of it by prenatal testing. Also prenatal testing tends to have lots of false positives. So if you go by that you could very well be aborting a perfectly healthy baby.

But I just wonder if you (generalized) aren't willing to care for a special needs child from birth, what would happen if your healthy baby develops a disease or is in an accident that causes them to have special needs a few years after they are born? I am willing to bet you wouldn't deny treatment and just let your child die? What makes that child's life more worth living than the one that is in the womb? Because it was born healthy?
 

Lilavati

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#69
Also about the people with DS years ago didn't even get the options that people with DS now have. They may have thrived more and been able to do more if they weren't deemed incapable before given a chance. I think so many people with DS now are like Nash, because now they are being treated like humans and given opportunities, and they can live happy lives.

You can not determine the severity of it by prenatal testing. Also prenatal testing tends to have lots of false positives. So if you go by that you could very well be aborting a perfectly healthy baby.

But I just wonder if you (generalized) aren't willing to care for a special needs child from birth, what would happen if your healthy baby develops a disease or is in an accident that causes them to have special needs a few years after they are born? I am willing to bet you wouldn't deny treatment and just let your child die? What makes that child's life more worth living than the one that is in the womb? Because it was born healthy?
It would depend, wholly on the nature of the accident. Mentally impaired, like DS? Of course not. Parapelgic? Of course not. Horribly scarred? Of course not. Blind? Deaf? Those kinds of special needs . . . of course I would seek treatment.

As horrifically impaired and maimed as some of these deformities? Vegitative? In constant pain with no hope of recovery? Brain dead? Locked in? I hope I would have the courage to refuse treatment for my child in those cases if an accident or illness rendered them so impaired that they were only technically alive, or that they would suffer pointlessly with no hope of enjoying life or recovery. I would refuse treatment for myself in those cases, and assuming my child was too young to have preferences of his/her own (and assuming my partner agreed) I would refuse treatment. I would also abort a baby that was that seriously deformed or impaired. Not because I'm selfish, or because I don't want a special needs child, but becuase it would be cruel to keep the child alive in that situation, and cruel to let it be born.

But these are all very hard boundaries to draw. One reason DS is so controversal is because it is fairly common, and because it can have such different effects. Some DS kids get 4 year college degrees, and some never learn to dress themselves. Some are joyous people who bring happiness to those around them, and some are clearly miserable and live horrible, wretched lives. Things HAVE gotten better for them. But there is no way to know before they are born. I'm no fan of Sarah Palin, but every time I see her, I hope that baby is going to be ok, be one of those high-functioning, happy people with DS. And he has a better shot than he would have 20 years ago, and a better shot with Governor Palin as his mother than someone poor and uneducated. But its a gamble, and I hope the Palin's get lucky.

So we can argue about DS until we are blue in the face. I'll be honest. I'd like to say I'd keep a DS baby (I'd definately get a second opinion) but I'd be haunted every moment by some of the more unlucky ones that I have met. But, DS aside, there are things that can go wrong that go far beyond "special needs" or "disabilities." They are things that if they somehow happened to a child or an adult, many people would refuse treatment or pull the plug. I see no reason to inflict these things on a baby by refusing abortion in those cases, or requiring treatment.
 
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#70
my opinion on the original subject, anecephaly, is that the brain makes the animal/person, since it processes all the information and makes the personality. so if a baby human happens to have no brain, it should probably be allowed to die, it doesn't really know it's alive since it has no brain, ie no processing center.
 

Romy

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#71
Back to the ventilators and life support, if that equipment is in such short supply that conscious people are dying for not having access to it because brain dead/no chance of recovery folks are tying it up, there needs to be something set in place like with the organ donation lists.

To get your place on the list, there are qualifications that can bump you up or down the list depending on the severity of need, lifestyle, chances of long term recovery, life expectancy without the transplant, etc.

If it's that big of an issue, then there needs to be similar criteria in place.

As for letting nature take it's course, I don't feel that it would be wrong for parents to make the decision to take an encephalic child off life support. Because I'm not in the middle of that situation with all the emotions running rampant, etc. I can't say for sure what I would do. I hope that I would have to courage to let what was best for the child happen. Personally, from a religious perspective I feel that having completed the pregnancy I had done my part, and it would be time for the child to return where it came from on it's own time. I don't think I would seek to prolong the inevitable with life support.

But I can't make that decision for other parents, just as I can't make the decision of whether or not to carry to term for other parents. And all of that is theirs, intensely personal, and I have no right to criticize what anybody else does either way.

Lilavati, it is sad that the major organs are not viable. I think if that happened to me I would want as much as possible to be donated.

my opinion on the original subject, anecephaly, is that the brain makes the animal/person, since it processes all the information and makes the personality. so if a baby human happens to have no brain, it should probably be allowed to die, it doesn't really know it's alive since it has no brain, ie no processing center.
See, this is why we will never have a real answer to the question. It's all tied up in suppositions and different faiths.

My beliefs are different, in that I believe that the spirit is what makes a dog a dog and a human a human, and it does not reside in the brain. The brain is merely a physical organ that allows our spirits to interact with our physical environment. If we were just physical brains, all of our memories and accumulated knowledge would vanish when we die. Of course, there are people who believe that to be true as well, so we're back at square one. It's very hard to make policy based on belief without totally steam rolling someone else's.
 

Domestika

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#72
But these are all very hard boundaries to draw. One reason DS is so controversal is because it is fairly common, and because it can have such different effects. Some DS kids get 4 year college degrees, and some never learn to dress themselves. Some are joyous people who bring happiness to those around them, and some are clearly miserable and live horrible, wretched lives. Things HAVE gotten better for them. But there is no way to know before they are born. I'm no fan of Sarah Palin, but every time I see her, I hope that baby is going to be ok, be one of those high-functioning, happy people with DS. And he has a better shot than he would have 20 years ago, and a better shot with Governor Palin as his mother than someone poor and uneducated. But its a gamble, and I hope the Palin's get lucky.
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I think I would terminate a DS pregnancy. Absolutely no disrespect meant to anyone living with DS...definitely not saying that their lives aren't worth living. But the more I think about my brother-in-law and the extreme confusion and frustration I see in him...I just can't imagine making the choice for my child to live like that for 50 years. It's a roll of the dice and the child may end up highly functional...but it's just as likely that she/he will end up living in a personal hell. My BIL, apart from being unable to communicate, see or hear well or express himself in any way, has a slew of related health problems. He gets constant ear infections which cause him intense pain (and have permanently ruined his hearing) and no one knows when the infection is back until he scratches the side of his face raw trying to get the pain away. He also, of course, has serious heart problems which will eventually end his life.

It's one of those things where the best case scenario is pretty good...but the worst case scenario is just...cruel and I probably wouldn't take a gamble and have a child live every day of their life in a mental prison, suffering physically and probably emotionally simply because I wanted to see what would happen.

Is it really the case that you can "work" with DS? I've never heard of this before... My BIL was basically considered a "write off" as soon as they found out. It was different then, and this is a different country. They basically went "Ok, so he's a permanent baby" and left it at that. But is it really possible to work with a DS person to help them gain more than they would have if left alone? That's a really interesting concept to me.
 

-bogart-

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#73
This is basically the reason that if we ever decided to get pregnant we would do every form of prenatal testing under the sun.

when i was pregnant with my girls , the doctors offered us a "Peace of Mind test" that tested for a bunch of medical conditions , Downs being one of them . The babies tested positive for Downs and we where offered an amino to confirm.
I studied up on amino and decllined as I wouldn't abort either way . But let me tell you , for a so called "Peace of mind " test , it shattered me for a good month or two , until i saw bbutard blog about her grandson.
when my girls where born , perfectly normal both of them!
i hate those test and if i could ever get prego again , i would decline EVERYONE of them. but that is just me as i wont terminate even if i was in danger.




now for back on topic , i would not treat a baby that had this , but i wouldn't try to stop someone who was. I may try to coucil them and help them through the situation , but never tell them to let go.
 

bubbatd

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#74
Yes , early intervention is VERY important ! They tend to have low muscle tone , and speech problems . This is where sign language helps any frustrations until they can communicate well . I know that Nash wouldn't be where he is today if he wasn't worked with from day one .
 

Domestika

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#75
when i was pregnant with my girls , the doctors offered us a "Peace of Mind test" that tested for a bunch of medical conditions , Downs being one of them . The babies tested positive for Downs and we where offered an amino to confirm.
I studied up on amino and decllined as I wouldn't abort either way . But let me tell you , for a so called "Peace of mind " test , it shattered me for a good month or two , until i saw bbutard blog about her grandson.
when my girls where born , perfectly normal both of them!
i hate those test and if i could ever get prego again , i would decline EVERYONE of them. but that is just me as i wont terminate even if i was in danger.
I can definitely understand that, as someone who would decline to abort, those tests can't do anything but make you worry. Some "peace of mind"...geez. If you're not going to abort either way, there's really no point in finding out.

For someone like myself, who would abort under certain circumstance, it would just be a necessity. Though, more for my husband than for me. I would kinda take things as they came but my husband is pretty set on not reliving his childhood with his own children.

Though..the more I hear about it, the more it sounds like the tests aren't foolproof and the possibilit exists that you may get a false negative and abort a pregnancy that was actually just fine.

Tricky situation, for sure.
 

Domestika

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#76
Yes , early intervention is VERY important ! They tend to have low muscle tone , and speech problems . This is where sign language helps any frustrations until they can communicate well . I know that Nash wouldn't be where he is today if he wasn't worked with from day one .
Wow...I had no idea. That's really sad.

My BIL was born more than 30 years ago and things were still pretty backwards here back then. My in-laws actually got threatening anonymous letters from neighbours for bringing that "monster" home with them. Pretty sad.

The mentality back then was kind of "oh well", and move on to other children. Not that they don't love him, but I don't get the impression they did much of anything to "help". They might not have known they could. Education is so important!
 

Lilavati

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#77
Lilavati, it is sad that the major organs are not viable. I think if that happened to me I would want as much as possible to be donated.
It is sad, but no real need to express it to me. It didn't happen to me or anyone I know. I just wrote a paper about it. The paper was a challange, but not a personal trauma.

Or maybe it was. It was the hardest paper I've ever written. Not because the topic was hard, or the law was hard (as a policy paper, I needed to lay out the law, but that wasn't tough). It was long too, as law school papers are. No, what was hard about it was the question.

Sometimes, with adult organ donations, the organs are removed while the body is still, biologically alive. Basically, the person is declared brain dead (because they are) and they take them into the operating room and remove the organs while they are still hooked up to the life support. In other words, if you really want the image, they remove their beating heart and breathing lungs. It sounds horrible, and in many ways it is, but the person is legally dead, and being brain dead, isn't aware and isn't getting better, ever. And the organs are in very, very good shape, and save many lives.

One of the issues addressed in the paper (there were others) was whether anencephalic babies should be declared legally dead, and, just as some adults are, used for organ donation while still attached to life support. Let me emphasize right here that the only scenerio in which I considered this situation is where the parents give their fully informed consent. Right now, anencephalic babies are not legally dead until they stop breathing. Partially, this is because they are not, technically fully brain dead.

This was the hardest question I have ever addressed, and I took a lot of ethics classes. I paced around the courtyard for hours, chain smoking, while I thought this one through, with a pile of books sitting on the wall that I kept checking. I'm sure people thought I was nuts. I consider it a basic ethical principle that you do not use people as a means to an end. Anencephalic babies may not be, really, people, but they are human, and they SHOULD have been people . . . it is a tragedy that they are not.

However, organs for infants are exceptionally rare. Most babies that need a transplant die waiting, all the more so in this age of specialized car seats. Infant organs are precious, because they often save mutliple lives of babies that would die but for that transplant.

But there is a huge relucance to declare anencephalic babies brain dead . . . one, because of the technical definition (they have function in their brain stems) but also because of public outrage, including that of fanatics who demand treatment for all babies . . . often the same people who oppose all abortion, no matter how dire the circumstances. And as we all know, these people turn violent. BUt there is also deep discomfort among doctors and ethics committees. It feels wrong. But then there are the parents that want to save a life or several lives, out of their tragedy, and are traumatized further when the organs can't be used.

I won't say this is the hardest decision I've made, because it was hypothetical. But it was hard. I didn't like the possible answers. I finally came down on the side of: if the parents give informed consent and the baby is authentically anencephalic, it should be permissiable to declare it brain dead and harvest the organs, and where necessiary (and in many cases it is not, because it relies on doctors to determine when dead occurs, and what the definition of brain dead is) amend the laws to permit it. I did not, do not, like this conclusion . . . but the alternative, that otherwise healthy babies that could live to adulthood (admittedly on immunosuppressant drugs) and have children of their own, and love and laugh and cry, would die as infants for lack of those organs . . . which the anencephalic will not live long enough to use.

Since I've put this out, and it is related closely to the threads original topic . . . I guess . . . discuss?


As for working with DS kids, they've made a lot of progress . . . partially by not writing them off. Although the ones that do really well, are often so-called mosaics . . .people with two genomes due to a merger of embyros in the womb . . . DS mosaics often do well because they other genome was not DS.
 

sillysally

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#78
Wow...I had no idea. That's really sad.

My BIL was born more than 30 years ago and things were still pretty backwards here back then. My in-laws actually got threatening anonymous letters from neighbours for bringing that "monster" home with them. Pretty sad.

The mentality back then was kind of "oh well", and move on to other children. Not that they don't love him, but I don't get the impression they did much of anything to "help". They might not have known they could. Education is so important!
Yeah, things have changed a lot. Right across the street from my work there is a company that specifically employs those with mental challenges and many of them are DS. It provides great opportunities for them--our company actually has them assemble some stuff for us. many of them are functional enough to walk themselves to work, etc.
 

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