This is a Forum.

[SharkyX]

Rrrright...lol, as more profanity slings forth. One of the first things people on the defensive do is deflect blame and use misdirection. My kiddos, 6 and 4 y/o BTW, do that a lot...mostly when they know they've done something worth being defensive about.

You just used the same tactic your condeming Save for using. You didn't answer which other forums you've seen her say "this is my last post because etc."

Couple of observations from reading here:

1. The forum has changed. To say other wise is a tad bit nieve. Forums always change, new members join and old members leave, thus the tone and discussion topics of a forum change and evolve over time. A forum might still hold it's original intent but the way it's conveyed is different now then it was last month which is different from last year and it will be different a year from now also. In order to stay afloat it has to change. Whether you notice the change or not as it goes with what you want the forum to be or do or do not have any problem with the changes that take place.
If you still want to believe the forum has never changed, I have a Hendrix air guitar for sale that you might be interested in.

2. When old members, core members and some of the mod staff start bickering in open public like is happening right now generally there is something pretty darn wrong. In this case it seems to be about the types of members and freedom of speach afforded to them that have joined of late. I've seen more then a few topics and wondered "how the hell isn't this locked yet". Of course I don't always report it so I suppose that makes me just as guilty as the moron posting blatantly stupid comments... however I've noticed that on the occassions I have hit the report post button it still takes a while for anything to get done... and what thats complained about we get told that people here have the right to free speach and that moderators don't exist to do members bidding.
So then what becomes the value behind hitting that button to report trolls and other unpleasantries... look at how many people a certain member who was recently banned offended and that was pretty well agreed on that they weren't a beneficial member to the community, before corrective action was taken?

3. Lastly I'm probably going to step out of line here... but Chazhound I find it pretty interesting your criticising somebody else for speaking about what Chazhound is all about when, in my time here, this is the most active I've ever seen you in a single topic with all of two posts. You are the least active, yet still present, administrator I've seen on any of them dozen plus forums I've been to over the years. You don't speak about what Chazhound is all about anymore... I'm sure there was a time when you were fairly active but in the basically year that I've been lurking and then joined and began posting you haven't spoken up, you've let your members and moderators do the speaking for you in regards to what this forum is about.
I'm sure you've got a lot of other things to do as we can all agree, web forums don't control any of our lives (unless you create web forums and work for some of the forum companies for a living I guess) but perhaps having a bit more visible presence wouldn't be such a terrible thing for the sake of the community. At least that way we might be able to avoid the part of the arguement where what the community is about comes into play.

Please note, this is not meant as attack or to be offensive so hopefully it will not be taken as such, trying to be helpful in the only way I know how

 

[MelissaCato]

I think this is one of the most active and perceptible forums I've ever been a member.
I like Chazzzzz.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

You just used the same tactic your condeming Save for using. You didn't answer which other forums you've seen her say "this is my last post because etc."

Actually, you have no idea if I answered her or not..if it was done in PM...which I might or might not have done today...tomorrow...three days from now...or yesterday.

I explained her behavior reminded me of my kids...which it does...and I asked her if she'd considered a possibility...which is a valid thing to ask...I offered her a solution....which is also valid.

No deflection here.

 

[SharkyX]

Actually, you have no idea if I answered her or not..if it was done in PM...which I might or might not have done today...tomorrow...three days from now...or yesterday.

I explained her behavior reminded me of my kids...which it does...and I asked her if she'd considered a possibility...which is a valid thing to ask...I offered her a solution....which is also valid.

No deflection here.

True I don't know if you privately messaged Save. However you made the accusations in a public setting and then the defense was put to you in a public setting.
To continue on your course of action of pointing out/proving this isn't the first time she's done this you'd have to post at least one other forum where she's taken this route in order to make your statement credible.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

To agree with you I'd have to agree that an accusation, rather than an observation was made...so we're at a likely permanent...impasse.

 

[SharkyX]

To agree with you I'd have to agree that an accusation, rather than an observation was made...so we're at a likely permanent...impasse.

That's true, since i'm not about to budge in my belief in was an accusation and I'd highly doubt you're going to yield and say it wasn't an observation

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dekka]

Thoughtful post Sharky.

I have stayed out of this thread for the most part, because I find it silly.

I like trolls, they are fun. If you don't like them no one makes you read the threads. I like a good debate, its stimulating, and hones your arguments. Some people are made uncomfortable by debates-no one is making you read them.

Holding your dogs head under water is wrong. So is child abuse. Linking them isn't a bad thing. Most people know child abuse is wrong. Obviously the people holding their dog's heads underwater, don't know it's wrong. Linking them rhetorically could shock people into seeing the connection of violence done to those with less power, and see that behaviour as dog abuse.

I agree that letting people speak their mind isn't the same as welcoming them. I thought the MR threads were beneficial to the dog world in general. Now when people google his name, these threads come up. They can now read them and decide if he is the sort of trainer they want; training styles, and as a person. MR, and his cronies, joining in harmed them far more than they may realize. If it stops only one person from choosing abusive methods, then that thread was a success.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. This is a public forum, there are always these issues on a public forum. But the tone and feel of a forum will change to match those of the members.

So really what is the this fuss all about?

 

[chazhound]

Whats the point of reporting anything, when people get told over and over again that everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if their opinion is ok that people half-drown dogs and hit them with sticks while training, and dont see a problems with dogs living in cages and breeding them every chance they get)

But I guess thats ok, cause they get to have an opinion cause this is an Open forum right... Guess it doesnt matter that some people actually care right ??

and Sparks Im not even going to go there with you, but your one to be talking...

Where do you see me OK half-drowned dogs? Where so I say it is OK to hit dogs with sticks? Or living in Cages? Or Breeding abuse? What makes you think you love and care for dogs more than Chazhound or it's mods?

If you see abusive behavior you can report it anytime you want, but you decided not too. We have over 1000 posts a day and we can't read them all. But we investigate every reported post. We have much better tools than you to find out the real stories and associations. We don't guess or run someone off just because a member says they are bad or got rubbed the wrong way.

We have over 800,000 posts on this forum and I only hear of the same example over and over. It is like you don't see any of the vast good Chazhound has to offer.

Chazhound

 

[smkie]

THat's the kind of private stuff i don't want to read. THe mud slinging, the name calling, the pointing out, the insulting. YOur given two options, the ignore button and the pm. WHy must it be dragged out where someone has to read it? WHen i come to Chazhound, i feel like i am coming to an establishment. A place where we all sit down and discuss what we care about. A place provided by someone willing to make the time and effort to allow us to discuss what we care about. Insulting how that person does this, or how much imput they have to me is beyond rude. Maybe it effects no one else that way, but it does me. If they don't like the way this forum is run, then they should go make one of their own. I once wrote i found a treasure when i was a newbie. Not one bit of that has changed for me. I do find this whole unpleasant business to be stirred by a few that seem to enjoy keeping it going. I hate to think that newbies come in and see this and think wtf. I know it will blow over, and that will be that, but to insult CHazhound, what it stands for, what it is about, is just wrong.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Absolutely!

Agreeing to disagree is a great tool, that should be used more often, in forum life and "real life", both.

 

[SharkyX]

If they don't like the way this forum is run, then they should go make one of their own.

The "don't let the door hit your @ss on the way out" mentality isn't always the best approach though.
If people didn't care about the forum they wouldn't have this arguement, they would simply leave and nobody would ever know why or if anything could be done to improve.

Criticism isn't always easy to hear but it's sometimes a very useful tool and great improvements can come from it.

 

[smkie]

IF they really cared about this forum, the would work together in a postive manner instead of grooving on the bashing.

When i went to art school our director of the dept was a tall, thin, stern man who seldom smiled. He was available for any questions at anytime. He kept the order of our dept which was small but still very complicated. He however didn't lean over our desks and tell us what to do.
I sat at a student meeting where i listened to half a dozen students criticize this man for being unfeeling, stern, fatherlike, and i thought wtf. WHat did they want after all? He had always answered anything i had to ask him, since when does someone have to have a smile pasted on their face. WHat they didnt' know about this "uncaring, unjovial man" that didn't respond the way they wanted him to, was how unbelievably educated he was. WHat i learned from him is a part of who i am today. Not only that he fostered-raised a dozen children and put all through college. Those students got a burr under their saddle because he didnt' lean over and make them do good work. He let them find their own ways. If he had leaned over our desks we would have been doing his work, not our own. Listening to this criticizm of CHazhound by certain members is like listening to those students back then. Your not looking at the whole picture here, only your perspective of it, which IMO is a nearsighted. And because of that everyone is affected, yet you have not been silenced. Sometimes i wish people when they are ranting and raving would look around and see who is being quiet and think why? could it be because they have nothing good to say? ANd are choosing to say nothing at all?

 

[Melissa_W]

I just hate to see the forum torn apart like this. I hope that everyone can somehow put their differences aside and move forward. I think everyone contributes to the forum in their own way and I would hate to see anyone go.

 

[malmo]

Your idea of an dog abuser may be very different from what we find. I can find no evidence of dog abuse that has been reported to me. If you have some prove of dog abusers on Chazhound I would love to have it.

To me, this is the big problem with this discussion -- what constitutes "abuse" to one person may not to another. As someone who has to make decisions every day about whether to report child abuse or not, I can say that it is all very subjective. Even when I hear something in a therapy session and think, "That is ABUSE!" it all depends on the person who answers the phone at DCS whether or not there will be a formal report made. The word "abuse" is just too open for interpretation. Subjective.

It's not subjective for me, in my life. I would never hit a child OR an adult OR a dog. I can't say I was ever so surprised on chazhound as I was during the thread in which people who would have jumped ALL OVER someone for hitting a dog then turn around and talk about how they feel fine spanking children. But, that was my own response and not an issue of moderation. No one was condoning "abuse" but in my experience, abusers seldom feel they are abusing.

Unless you want to write a 15-page manifesto on exactly where the fine line is between training, correcting, abusing, and maltreating dogs, I think it's fine to let the forum more or less moderate itself. We should all take responsibility for reporting the things we are uncomfortable with. Then, though, we have to accept that the mods will do what they feel best about. If you continue to disagree with the decisions after that, then that's a personal issue.

 

[Dekka]

I agree there is a fine line. But the blatant things, like hitting with sticks, hanging, half drowning, seem to me to be far enough over the line, it should be obvious.

 

[Fruit bat]

If I may, I know people are upset by the subject of Frenchkissed. Her websites have been put up and is a self proclaimed puppy farmer. When other members are working so hard to rescue and face the sad looks of those they can't help, those hundreds that die, it is a slap in the face to have a person who does this for profit get on here and give everyone advice. I just don't really understand why that person or one who admittedly let an animal starve to death were ever allowed to stay. There are more examples here to. I was really not aware of the fact that I should have reported those directly to Chazhound. Live and learn. Since the mods were sometimes involved in those convos. I never thought it needed to go further. That that was it, if you will. These people get everyone upset and are just here to stir sh!t, Chaz would be a better place without them. 3 or 4 months ago I could hardly leave my computer and Chaz. Now it just plain sucks, It is not the same.

I know Chaz has said he doesn't think allowing them to stay is the same as condoning or supporting their actions , but from a members standpoint that IS how it seems.

 

[chazhound]

I agree there is a fine line. But the blatant things, like hitting with sticks, hanging, half drowning, seem to me to be far enough over the line, it should be obvious.

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound

 

[Fruit bat]

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound

I can't speak for everyone else but when a mod is posting on the threads I assume no more reporting is necessary.

 

[chazhound]

If I may, I know people are upset by the subject of Frenchkissed. Her websites have been put up and is a self proclaimed puppy farmer. When other members are working so hard to rescue and face the sad looks of those they can't help, those hundreds that die, it is a slap in the face to have a person who does this for profit get on here and give everyone advice. I just don't really understand why that person or one who admittedly let an animal starve to death were ever allowed to stay. There are more examples here to. I was really not aware of the fact that I should have reported those directly to Chazhound. Live and learn. Since the mods were sometimes involved in those convos. I never thought it needed to go further. That that was it, if you will. These people get everyone upset and are just here to stir sh!t, Chaz would be a better place without them. 3 or 4 months ago I could hardly leave my computer and Chaz. Now it just plain sucks, It is not the same.

I know Chaz has said he doesn't think allowing them to stay is the same as condoning or supporting their actions , but from a members standpoint that IS how it seems.

I do understand how you feel and come to that conclusion. We will never be able to root out all the bad apples, some will sneak around and just stay within the guildlines to stay. Remember, you have to have prove before I act. I have seen none. Do you actually know anyone who bought a puppy from her? A puppy farm sells huge amounts of puppies. A site with no traffic or desire will get no business. Anyone going to such a site from Chazhound will already have a negative view before landing on the site. I have to look at the whole picture here.

We allow mods to be members too and voice their own individual opinions and beliefs. If you think a mod is involved in a thread and not addressing abuse, then report it to another mod, me, or Renee. I know all our mods love and care dearly for dogs.

Remember, it is easy for me to just delete this thread. I do want an open forum. The members has always and will always report the bad apples and maintain order. If you don't, then don't blame me. We as dog lovers, will investigate the complaint based on merit, not emotion. On facts, not accusations. Rest assured that has always been the way here.

Chazhound

 

[Dekka]

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound

?? I didn't report it cause I wanted to discuss it. If I reported it, the thread could have been locked. I addressed how it wasn't ok with me, from within the thread, so others could come and see the arguments. And as there were a few mods in there too, I too thought all who needed to know, were in the know.