Nancy Grace has gone too far

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Parting shots, I am getting ready to leave. I went to the training forum of this forum and pulled up the first 7 threads I found on dog aggressive dogs and human aggressive dogs. What a shock, NONE of them are pits.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43147

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42774

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42936

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42553

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42694

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41898

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42592

Can send you links to other fourms if you like (one even has a topic called aggression rarely see pits in there).

Not to bash anyone who posted these either. We all at one time or another ask for help on forums such as this one with training issues.
 
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Oh and I have met dog aggressive Collies/collie mixes. Ask our shelter manager (BTW thanks I do go to my shelter every single week and do rescue orientated stuff almost every day-hence my name) which breed is the most dog aggressive/human aggressive in our city. I guarentee you he wont say pit bulls. Just had a catahoula X euthanized for killing a cat. Have another COLLIE mix in there who will be euthanized for killing a cat.
Darn, you defeated my big argument - collies don't kill! I am starting to think that the biggest argument against pit bulls is that their fans are such complete nitwits. If you can read my earlier post:

Speaking of generalizing... I don't know about Bobsk, but I do know pit bulls. I've met them, I've patted them and walked them and admired them.
I never had a problem with them until I saw one nearly rip another dog open while three people struggled to stop it. That made me stop and think much more about the issue. They're - and I do mean all the fighting breed, not just the APBT - not the same as other dogs. The breeds that were developed to fight and kill other dogs or large animals such as bulls were bred to combine strength and obsessiveness so that they could as a single dog accomplish something that normally only a pack of dogs could do - kill an animal that's of equal or larger size, and fighting back.... That's vicious, you realize? You disagree with people strongly, so you disparage their own love for their pet? I don't know about other people, but the reason I have the opinions I do about pit bulls is my love for my pet, and my love for her breed type. I feel sometimes as if my next dog will be a fighting or guard breed because I spend much of our walks with my eyes on stalks, trying to spot dangerous dogs before they spot us. I've been doing this for years, of course, but the breeds that were common in the 1980s and 1990s were GSDs and Labs. And say what you will about those dogs, you could bury a foot in their ribs and they'd let go of your dog (I have first-hand experience, sadly). The fighting breeds don't. They bear down and grind down and suffocate or sever your dog's jugular or windpipe right in front of you. I came close to having first-hand experience of that, too. Meet a pit bull breed that's trying to murder your shaggy, friendly collie mix whose only desire is to get away from this monster on her throat, and then we can talk.


and get from it 1) collies and collie mixes are perfect, 2) a query about whether or not you go to your local shelter, and 3) anything at all about which breed is most dog or human aggressive - well, I don't think that talking to you is ever going to achieve anything. You just make stuff up that allows you to return, politician-like, to your talking points - you should meet my pit bull foster, if you disagree with me you're a media tool who's never met a pit bull, I'm a real dog person who's met tons of dogs and most of the mean ones were Yorkies, etc.

btw, I'm not sure why you're bragging up your relationship to this shelter or your embarassing feat in taking 6 dogs of unknown temperament to an adoption event. When potential adopters ask you about the dogs, what do you say? Do you make something up - oh, yeah, Tex is a real nice dog, and did I tell you about my foster pit bull who looks JUST like old Tex here - like you do here?
 

chinchow

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Yet again, Casablanca produces nothing worth reading for any facts.

It must be hard to compete with people who know what they are talking about, huh?
 
B

Bobsk8

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snip


We took 8 dogs to an adoption event. Unknowingly to us, 6 of them were dog aggressive. Only 2 dogs were dog friendly. A pit mix and a lab mix. 3 dog aggressive dogs were shepherd mixes, one was a flat coat retriever mix, 2 were lab mixes (one a senior lab mix). Go figure, huh? Evil pit bull mix was the best behaved out of the bunch.

Believe what you want about Smokey. Not my buisness.
What kind of screwed up organization are you working with that would take 6 animals that were D/A and attempt to adopt them out to people :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

If I were you, I would keep that story quiet from now on... Geez!!!!!!! That is really over the top.... And you are lecturing me about how to recongnize dog breeds and my attitude towards dog behaviors? Too funny...... :lol-sign:
 
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Okay, jumping in a bit late here, and for something off - topic, but I just had to reply, because stuff like this really ticks me off...

Bobsk8 said:
What kind of screwed up organization are you working with that would take 6 animals that were D/A and adopt them out to people

If I were you, I would keep that story quiet from now on... Geez!!!!!!! That is really over the top.... And you are lecturing me about dog breeds...
While I agree with you that these dogs should have been tested for dog aggression BEFORE being brought to the adoption event, just because a dog is dog - aggressive does NOT mean it is an unadoptable dog. It also does NOT mean the dog is human aggressive.
I have a dog - aggressive dog. We are working on her aggression, and she is progressing. She is well - behaved and well - trained, and most of the time is such a sweetheart. I don't deny that she has her problems. I also don't deny that the things I did in the past could have contributed to her problems. But, my point is - just because my dog is dog - aggressive does not mean she is not a nice dog, or that she's all of a sudden, with no warning, going to go on a human attack spree, and start attacking people. It also doesn't mean she's going to go on a dog attack spree and start attacking dogs. She's not in "kill mode" when she's reacting to another dog. I guess it'd be best to define her as dog - dominant. Would she bite another dog? Maybe. But most times it's more of a dog - dominance thing. Some dogs she's perfectly fine with. Most times she doesn't even react.


I'm sick and tired people assuming that because of a dog has dog - dog aggression means that dog is also a vicious, evil, man - eating beast. Anyone who meets my dog can tell that she's far from that.
 

tempura tantrum

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First off- I'm not going to take sides on this one- I see valid points from each, but when arguments include taking shots at one another, rather than staying on topic, the whole thing becomes silly.

I DO however (as the owner of a DA breed), have to agree with Gaddy's last point.

Dog aggression is definitely NOT the same as human aggression- and shouldn't be equated as such. DA and HA are two very different things.

It is a well-known characteristic of MANY Nordic breeds (Shibas included), and one that is easily managed by anyone with a decent head on their shoulders and the willingness to learn and UNDERSTAND the psychology of DA breeds.

The breeder I obtained my Shibas from runs a decently sized group of Shibas together and yet they all remain intact. This isn't because the breed is known for its Buddha-like tendencies around other canines, but rather because those dogs KNOW what's expected of them and who the alpha is.

My own Shiba bitch has no great love for other dogs but she's never once bitten another dog. She even accepts other bitches into our home. Animals welcomed by my family must be tolerated, and this is something she knows. Despite the fact that she is of a DA breed we can easily attend crowded show grounds without the worry that we will return home with stitches or be facing lawsuits.

Smart owners UNDERSTAND the risks of owning DA breeds and deal with them head on. I don't prance around dog parks with my Shibas because it's pointless. It's not enjoyable for them (and besides, I tend to believe that most dog parks are little more than excuses for human social clubs). I socialize the heck out of my animals. They attend puppy kindergarten and obedience/agility/handling classes. They're exposed to all types of situations, and they're given ground rules.

A DA dog owned by an intelligent, well-informed individual is a lot safer in my eyes than a Yorkie whose owner treats it like a baby, or a Labrador owned by people who never bothered to teach it basic manners.

DON'T mistake dog aggression for human aggression. They are NOT the same.
 
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Vicious Pit Bull owned by a ghetto thug. (I'll bet the jaded already saw the visually-aided sarcasm coming. :D) See the tattoos? (Both on dog and human.) That's proof of vicious intent.







Sorry, but no law in the world should take this dog from me. If you believe she should die, or I should be deprived of her companionship, you have no soul. (And she's never harmed a tame -- ie, non-vermin -- animal, even those who have tried to harm her first.)
 
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Smart owners UNDERSTAND the risks of owning DA breeds and deal with them head on. ... A DA dog owned by an intelligent, well-informed individual is a lot safer in my eyes than a Yorkie whose owner treats it like a baby, or a Labrador owned by people who never bothered to teach it basic manners.
:hail: Very nice!
 
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http://www.rott-n-chatter.com/rottweilers/laws/canadatorontoord.html

Now there's a good idea. Let's make it to where you cant have rabbits, cattle, goats, sheep, horses, donkeys, doves, swans, parrots, cockatoos, and turtles. THAT is what BSL opens up. They dont want you to even have horses! Come on!

Banned dogs:

Get ready for this one Bob- TENNESSEE
Lynnville (has BANNED ROTTWEILERS, PIT BULLS, CHOWS, GERMAN SHEPHERD & DOBERMANS)


Hm....In a study from 1992 to 1996 that involved 245 German cities, cross breeds caused the most bites (2376), followed by German shepherds (1956), Pit Bulls (320), Dobermans (223) and Bull terriers (169). K. Seksel, Report to the NSW Department of Local Government on Breed Specific Legislations Issues Relating To Control of Dangerous Dogs, 7-8 (2002).


This article that I am posting can be viewed at: http://www.goodpooch.com/BSL/failedBSL.htm


The Failure of Breed-Specific Legislation


"For every complicated problem, there is a simple, and wrong, solution." - HL Mencken


It's easy to see why the average person might think that certain breeds of dogs are inherently dangerous. After all, those are the only breeds we see on the news when a serious dog attack occurs.



But things aren't always as they seem.



Governments that have passed breed-specific legislation (BSL) have found out the hard way that these kinds of ordinances do not reduce the incidence of dog bites. Municipalities spend thousands of dollars passing these types of laws, only to find they didn't have the desired effect, and are routinely defeated in legal challenges.



In addition, the actual number of serious dog attacks is much smaller than the media would have us believe. Not only that, the dogs involved in the majority of biting incidents are not the breeds we see on the evening news. Does your local news reflect the fact that 'pit bulls' are typically only involved in 0-10% of dog biting incidents? If not, what does that say about the honesty and ethics of your local media? (Read more about 'media slant' here.)



No reputable organizations support breed bans.


Since BSL was first introduced, no region has shown a decrease in the number or severity of dog bites after a breed has been banned. In fact, many regions show an increase in dog biting incidents. Since the banned or restricted breeds typically make up only 0-10% of reported bites, the overwhelming majority of aggressive dogs and their owners remain unaffected by BSL. Malevolent dog owners continue operating outside the law, or move on to other breeds; causing spikes in bites by breeds not targeted by BSL. Furthermore, the restrictions that typically accompany BSL are in direct opposition to the responsible dog ownership tenets necessary in developing a good canine citizen.



BSL is a failed social experiment. It's time society scrapped this ill-conceived, ineffective, discriminatory, and unconstitutional kind of legislation in favour of strategies that have been proven successful in reducing dog bites.

As evidence of the failure of BSL, please note:

According to the city of Winnipeg's own data, when Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada banned 'pit bulls' in 1990, there were 214 reported dog bites that year (with 68 bites by German Shepherds and crosses, 18 bites by Terrier crosses, 16 bites by Labs and their crosses, and 11 bites by 'pit bulls'). For the decade following Winnipeg's 'pit bull' ban, there were an average of close to 50 MORE dog bites per year, with immediate spikes in bites by German Shepherds and crosses (92 bites in 1991, and 97 bites in 1992); Terrier cross (29 bites in 1991, and 34 bites in 1992); up to 2001, when the top biters were German Shepherd and crosses 64 bites, Rottweiler and crosses 37 bites, and Lab and crosses 30 bites.
Dog bites actually INCREASED after 'pit bulls' were banned in Winnipeg.
Bites by other breeds spiked after 'pit bulls' were banned in Winnipeg.
There had been just over 500 reported bites, the year Kitchener, Ontario, Canada decided to ban the #8 'breed' in their dog bite statistics ('pit bulls', but not the #1 breed, German Shepherds, and not even the #7 breed, Poodles).
Eight years later, the city again reported just over 500 dog bites.
The 'pit bull' ban hasn't reduced dog bites in Kitchener.
According to the BBC, hospitalizations due to dog bites increased by 25% after 'pit bulls' were banned in Britain.
German states enacted sweeping breed bans, only to have the Federal Administrative Court decree that a state cannot ban ownership of a dog based on breed.
Holland banned 'pit bulls' entirely, yet admits that very few 'pit bulls' have actually been involved in biting incidents.
12 U.S. state governments have gone so far as to pass laws making it illegal for any municipality to pass breed-specific ordinances.
The Supreme Court of Alabama ruled there was no genetic evidence that one breed of dog was more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.
Boulder, CO considered banning 'pit bulls' despite these facts.

The best estimate is 70 'pit bulls' were involved in dog-related, human fatalities during the past 40 years. 70, out of at least 24,000,000 dogs, means that 99.99998% of 'pit bulls' are innocent of these kinds of accusations. 99.99998%!!! Could the actions of 0.00002% of ANY group possibly say anything about the group as a whole? Far more than 0.00002% of men are involved in physical attacks against humans. Far more than 10-15dogs are murdered by humans each year.

Calgary, Alberta, Canada, developed a successful method for reducing dog bites, and even making their animal control department financially self-sufficient...and they did so without banning any breeds. Calgary boasts the lowest dog bite rate of any major Canadian city, after having reduced dog bites by 70% using the very techniques nearly all experts agree are key in reducing unprovoked dog bites:

Educational programs to teach dog owners what responsible dog ownership is, and what their responsibilities, as dog owners, are.

Increased access to off-leash parks for proper socialization of dogs is vital. Representatives from Calgary feel that a large part of their success in reducing dog bites is attributed to the ample access dog owners have to leash-free parks for socialization purposes. Calgary has the largest number of dedicated off-leash areas, of any major city in Canada.

We've been saying this for years (and Calgary's experience suggests we're right!), "When the studies are done, we'll find that the cities with best access to leash-free parks [for socialization, exercise, and training] will be the cities with the least number of dog bites."

Enforcement against habitually negligent dog owners plays a crucial role in reducing dog bites. Only by targeting those who are actually causing the problems is there any hope of solving it. It shouldn't have to be said that punishing already law-abiding and responsible dog owners will have zero effect in reducing dog bites...Their dogs are already safe, and well-behaved members of society. Target the dogs that are actually dangerous, then target the appropriate end of the leash: the dog's owner!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes you are right, the dogs should have been temparment tested before they went to the adoption event. No shelter is perfect.

The shepherd mix I mentioned previously who had been returned for biting is being returned again by it's foster because she killed a chicken.

Banning is the "easy" solution but wont ever solve the problem. It doesnt take a genius to realize though, these bad people are going to find another breed. Could be a german shepherd, maybe a rottweiller, maybe even a labrador (I have met quite a few nasty labs)
 
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Buddy'sParents

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For what it's worth to anybody, and at the risk of being a killed messenger, I figured this argument could use some actuals. This is a report entitled, "Dog attack deaths and maimings, US & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006," authored by Merritt Clifton, Editor of Animal People.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf

That's been the best two cents added to this convo (besides Gaddy) in a long, long time. Thanks for posting that, very informational. Consider yourself Messenger of the Year. :D
 
B

Bobsk8

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For what it's worth to anybody, and at the risk of being a killed messenger, I figured this argument could use some actuals. This is a report entitled, "Dog attack deaths and maimings, US & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006," authored by Merritt Clifton, Editor of Animal People.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf
Some people aren't going to like that info. Facts are not well received on this thread.......;)
 
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They exclude an awful lot of dogs. Like police dogs, guard dogs, exc.

I highly doubt all of those pit bulls were "family pets" my guess is they were kept as guard dogs or fighting dogs. I have not met one pit bull who is a family pet that would ever bite anyone.

And I KNOW 100% sure that there were more than 26 labs who bit someone between 82 and 2006. These figures seem a bit skewed. All these dogs listed have definantly "maimed" more than it says in 24 years. I do wonder where she got her facts from. It says only 1 pom has maimed & attacked someone. I know that to not be true. There have been more than the one.

We already know about this one in which a POMERANIAN killed a 6 week old baby. http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2000/Pomeranian.jpg

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/May2005/Pomdangerous.htm


Chiuahas arent on the list but what about this?
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/June2005/ParisHiltonsdogattacks.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/Novemeber2005/Chimix1105.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/December2005/lilyappers1205.pdf




And how about this? http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/Boyliesabout pitattack.pdf (dog reported at first as a pit bull)

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/July2005/0,,30000-13385162,00.pdf (dog reported at first as a pit bull)

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/September2005/MisIDIndianaABD.pdf (dog reported at first as a pit bull)

I guess I cant change your minds with common sense and you cant change mine with skewed statistics. I wont say she is lying but I will say the pit bull number seems a little high and the other numbers seem a little low?

I dont see bull terriers on there either, although they also seem to be pretty aggressive.

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2006/Februrary2006/bullterrier0206.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2006/April/bullterrier0406.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2006/April/bullterrierkillspuppy0406.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/July2005/0,,30000-13385162,00.pdf

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2005/July2005/BullTerrierJuly05.pdf

Hm..A bull terrier killed a child, wonder why they arent listed on this lady's statistics?

I know you wont look at the links, so I am wasting my time. Enjoy bashing pit bulls until they drag your dogs away because all the pit bulls are dead and the criminals have moved onto a different breed-your breed for guard dogs. Or until one of your dogs gets attacked and killed by a Mastiff or a Labrador, or even a Collie.

Perhaps we should lock all white males up since most murderers are white males and not to mention the serial killers? Let's just kill off everyone & everything, then there can be peace. Jet says he forgives those of you who hate his breed and he hopes one day your hearts will realize the wrongness of your statements and he hopes that you will then help his kind as his kind has helped our kind.

A lady I work with who is fostering a pit mix for us, emailed me today to let me know someone tried to break into her house last night and the pit mix ran the intruder away. Bet she is very glad that pit was around, or else she could be seriously hurt or dead.
 
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I am all for facts if they are truthful. But I listed quite a few accounts of OTHER breeds attacking that wernt on the list.

That means the data ISNT in fact truthful. A bull terrier killed a child, and yet wasnt on the list. Seems kind of fishy to me.

Again we can agree to disagree but in my heart I know that Jet and his breed would still wag their tails with excitement and love to meet you.

How anyone can hate any breed of dog is beyond me, but I guess everyone has their right to their opinion be it right or be it wrong.
 
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And no I dont doubt that pits have bitten that many times. But consider how many pits there are compared to how many Dalmatians there are. Pits by far outnumber any breed because people wont stop breeding them.

And not to mention those dogs wernt "family pets". No way, no how. Dogs dont turn like that.

I cant imagine having that much hate toward an innocent animal whose only goal in life is to be loved & fed...

I much prefer to direct my discontent & hate toward things who deserve it like the idiots fighting these dogs, or the idiots training them to be mean.

To each their own I guess..
 

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