Aggression levels at off-leash park?

I've only had Jetty for about 2 weeks now. She's a 2.5 year old border collie/lab mix. So far she is well behaved and rather submissive.

She's been to the same off-leash park for 5 days in a row with my friend/housemate who doesn't work during the day. I've been told that Jetty plays nicely and behaves when off-leash. Since it is dark when I get home from work today was my first time taking her to the off-leash park. Normally we just take a long walk every night.

This morning Jetty was playing nice with two other dogs, one a lab mix only about 4 months old. They were growling a little bit and taking turns being on the ground. There was no yelping but there was a bit of raised hairs and teeth showing but it looked to me and the other owner to be very playful. Then a lady with a 7 month old boxer arrived. The boxer was very submissive and stayed closer to her owner. Jetty started playing with her the same way as with the lab: playful mouthing and front paws in the air, climbing on top of each other a bit. The boxer was definitely submissive but didn't yelp or try to run away and did not lay down on her back, she was playing from what I could tell. Apparently the boxers owner thought Jetty was being too aggressive and she started going TTSSST, sorta chasing at my dog, and eventually picked up a stick to threaten her. She was not happy that I did nothing to stop Jetty from doing what I saw as playing with the boxer.

I didn't see the raised stick but the other dog owner did and told the lady she had no right to threaten my dog. After a few comments about how I did nothing and that my dog was not ready for this park the lady left.

I fully admit that I am learning, as is my dog. However I really didn't think that Jetty was being overly aggressive, and had the other dog tried to escape, whimpered, or yelped I would have stepped in.

Would one of you more experienced owners give me your perspective on what happened and what I should have done or done differently? I'm sure most dog owners will have their own comfort level with doggie aggression but what is a reasonable line to draw?

If the Boxer wasn't cowering, trying to get away and/or showing calming signals, I don't see the issue either. A lot of owners do not understand dog body language and do get over-protective of their dog, especially if its a puppy.
When I've come across these people, I'd call Dodger away and take the path of least resistance! It's better to call your dog off and find him/her another playmate than argue or upset owner's who think any kind of contact or growling is aggressive!
Unacceptable dog park behavior to me is snapping/biting without cause (usually accompanied by raised hackles and posturing), humping, body slamming/pinning and not letting a dog up, relentlessly pestering a dog that's had enough, running in packs and intimidating/targeting one dog etc...
Growling, mouthing, wrestling, controlled body checking and posturing is normal behavior - a lot of people can't tell the difference. There's also plenty at the other end of the spectrum who think bulliying is normal... I hope you don't run into any of those people!

Im more on the side of the lady who left with her puppy.

Overly anxios rough playing dogs are not a good thing for a young puppy. The rough fighting can quickly escalate into something more serious under dog park circumstances. While two dogs rolling around is not that bad, in dog parks there is usually a pack mentality and I've seen many times when a submissive dog was chased around by 10 other dogs. While some where just play chasing, others were clearly bent on hunting that dog down.

When I used to go to dog parks I was always close to my dog and tried to get to know the owners of dogs my dog played with. If things were getting rough I would ask the other dogs owners to stop it, and if I got no response I would stop them myself.

Better be cautious then sorry later on.

Im very cautious when it comes to puppies because it is very important that they get absolutely no negative imacts while growing. If they do, they might develop alot of issues when they grow up.

I wouldnt say you were wrong, or the lady. Just a difference of opinion, I can see both sides being right in their own minds.

Just one more example of why I don't frequent these areas with my dogs.

We're starting to avoid our local dog park for two reasons:

1) A woman that has been there every time we have been to the dog park for the last few weeks has an untrained dog that harasses Herschel to no end. Her dog, Cheyenne, barks at Herschel's face and nips at him. Not really to play, but just to annoy him. Somehow, Cheyenne can even get other dogs into the act. At times, there have been 3 dogs circling him and nipping at him. (We intervene and get the dogs away from Herschel) We've asked her to control her dog, but the best she does is grab her by the collar and make her sit. Then she let's her go and do it again. Herschel eventually gets sick of it and chases her away (he's 1/2 her size).

2) A few weeks ago Herschel was playing around chasing another dog. Then, a much much larger dog (Herschel is 20 lbs, this thing was at least 70) decides to pin him and go for his neck. Herschel was screaming a sound that I've never heard before. I sprinted over and as soon as the bigger dog saw me, he backed off. I screamed, "What the f*** is wrong with you?" at the owner and she replied, "I'm so sorry, he just tries to protect me sometimes." She knew her dog was aggressive but labeled it as protection. Her dog was aggressive and dangerous, not protective. It still makes me mad...



To the OP,

If someone else tells you that they are uncomfortable with the way that your dog is playing with their dog, then you need to respect that. At the very least, throw a ball or something to redirect your dog. More appropriately, teach your dog the "gentle" command. It's really easy to teach and very useful.

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

http://www.loveyourdog.com/gentle.html

Hershel, I totally feel you. That's happened to me A LOT.
It's worse when you own a Pit.

I've had the exact same situation, shared it on another forum, and had my headchopped off. I had people threaten me, call me names, tell me I'm a bad person. So I'm glad there are other people here who can relate.

As far as the Boxer thing goes, people are just stupid. I get that all the time. Dogs make noises when they play, they growl, hackles go up, bare teeth. It's all a part of canine communication. You can TELL if there's a dog fight. It's MUCH different from playing. And I'm sure that if you noticed anything wrong, you would have stepped in. Like any responsible dog owner would.
(Although, I'm not too sure there are very many responsible dog owners at dog parks)

I think you did the right thing. You weren't at fault. You just have to grow a thick skin when you go to those places.

If I had only had my dog for two weeks, I wouldn't be taking it to an off leash park. I wouldn't know enough about that dog's behaviour or reaction yet to be able to know what my dog is likely to do.

If the playing was still controlled, I don't really see an issue, but I'm always near my dog, so if I feel she's being a bully I call her off, or move her off if she's too into playing and won't come. I never get far enough away that I feel out of control.

If someone's uncomfortable with the play, as a responsible dog owner it's best to call your dog off and no longer play with people who are uncomfortable with the behaviour.

This does not sound like aggression to me - it sounds like your dog was showing a puppy the "pack" order. The fact that this woman tried to attack your dog would really tick me off too... If you see her again, try to talk to her about. If things ever get too rough or another owner wants your dog away from theirs, call your dog back and get her started on a different game.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I should have tried to talk to this lady sooner. I was just so amazingly amused by the way she was behaving. Her dog was clearly in no danger and her actions made so little sense to me I just watched to see what else she was going to do. I'm not sure how often this lady had been to the park before. Every time I've been there have been dogs all playing in the same manner. I can't see her allowing her dog to play with any others I've seen there. None of the other owners have had any issues with standard roughhousing and pack order.

That said, I was waiting for my dog to do something wrong or her dog to react in a negative way and I completely overlooked the actions of the owner. I was too focused on the actions of the dogs. I now know that the attitude and actions of the other owners are at least equally important to pay attention and react to. If I had started talking to her when she first went TTSSSST! and taken her more seriously she probably would have been more reasonable and I would have respected her wishes and called off my dog.

I was very hesitant about letting my dog off leash at the park. However since I got her she has been amazingly responsive. The first weekend I had her I spent 4 days at the beach with some friends and another dog she had never met. They played nice, and after a few days of good leash behavior at the beach and good behavior off-leash around the outside of the house I tested the waters... I felt she could be trusted. When we arrive at the park I let her loose then soon call her back with a treat. Then I do that a handful of times to make sure she doesn't forget who is in charge and who has treats in their pocket.

Ditto.

Besides the fact that I don't have any of those around here.

Dogs aren't meant to get along with every dog they see. Not all dogs love all dogs. And being the one with the smaller dog who is getting pounced on or beat up is not a situation I'd want to be in.

I don't know which of you was right, but I would like to point out that while I think it's great that you were watching the dogs for any signs of distress like the ones I've emphasized in bold above, those behaviors are pretty advanced signs of discomfort for a dog. Put it this way - by the time the dog's whimpering or trying to escape, he/she is pretty upset, and their owner probably is too. Their body language is more subtle, and what you're really looking for. It does take time, and usually the owner is more attuned to their dog than anyone else, so I think it's a good idea to respect an owner's opinon and break it up, even if it looks like playing.

One last thought - some breeds, including Labs, are notorious for being enthusiastically physical when it comes to playing. In other words, dogs who like to slam each other around. That style of play can really turn off many dogs, and it's possible that a) your dog picked up a little of that by playing with the lab mix, and b) the boxer (who seemed a bit cautious in the situation) was thrown off, mentally, by having a bigger, older dog being a little too 'heavy' around him.

I know what you mean... Being one with smaller dogs, I'm terrified to go to a dog park even though we have two in town. I have heard so many stories about things happening.

Instead I like to schedule what we call 'papillon playdates' with people with dogs that are closer in size to my own, and people I know. We usually have 12 or so dogs, and it's lots of fun. Or we call the breeder and have a family get together. I just trust those situations more. You can control a lot more things there. At a dog park, you never know what kind of dog or owner you'll get there. I'd rather err on the side of caution and miss out on the dog park than risk anything dangerous.

That is why I don't take Squirt to parks. She gets too rowdy, and I am always afraid som eone else will try and discipline her, making me crazy.

That does sound like fun Laurelin. I don't have anyone except my niece to take walks with and she hardly ever does anymore so it's just my motley crew and me; two Chihuahuas, a big male Doberman and a girl Pit/Shepherd(?) mix. It's a strange sight to behold. My male Dobe is OK with some dogs and will hit it off and make friends, but would definitely be scary without testing them out first. I'd never chance it with him in a dog park. I wouldn't like to be the one with the big dog with big teeth choming on another dog....although he tends to actually favor little dogs much better than ones closer to his size, although he met a seizure dog, some Lab mix when I was in Seattle and he and this other male dog just hit it off, were nuts about eachother. Then there was this little Poodle/Bishon girl, just thought she was the cat's meow and bounced around, chasing eachother on the beach. LOL. He cracks me up sometimes....can sound so ferocious with some dogs.

So, you never know what dog some other dog will like or not like.

Thanks. I do see now that the signs are more subtle than what I was looking for.

It should be noted that my dog weighs 35 pounds. The boxer, while younger, was definitely the bigger dog. He had several inches on her and who knows how many pounds. This was not an issue of my big muscular dog stomping on the tiny boxer puppy.

The other owner that was there with me at first said he'd never seen this lady before and he is there almost every day. Neither of his two dogs really tried to play with the boxer and the two of us speculated that had either of his dogs gotten close to the boxer the lady would have reacted the same way. I'm still not sure who was more in the right but am realizing it doesn't matter. Both of us could have done better and next time I will. I'm learning from the experience, I only hope she is doing the same.

Though not a dog park a lot of dog owners used to use the park in front of my house to let their dogs play together. I never ler Skye out there when they were there. It seemed ever night there would be some kind of escalation and one or other owner yelling at the dogs and each other. It didn't seem like much fun to me.

It all ended when one dog grabbed a lady's handbag as she walked round the park. She was skirting the dogs and nervous but the dog owners either didn't notice or didn't care. So ... police were called and that was the end of that.

One of the dog owners made a comment to me one day about the poor dogs who lived up in the houses over there. They were never let out to play. He was talking about my Skye and the Presa Canario that lives next door!

Little did he know that Skye and Elfa play together down on the beach and have the park to themselves when the rest all go home.

Oh wow! That's funny. You should have set her straight. LOL.

Exactly why I stopped bringing my dog to the dog park.

We learned the hard way though, as many here might remember.

I have a dog park right in back of my Condo Complex that opened a couple of months ago. Smokey and I walk by there everyday and sometimes I bring Smokey into the park enclosure to play. I am really careful about which dogs are in there because I have seen many instances of aggressive and untrained dogs and disinterested owners in the park. One lady, a couple of weeks ago, tried to rescue her dog from being attacked by another much bigger dog, so she picked her dog up and the other dog bit her hand. The owner of the attacking dog made some half A$$ed comment when he finally got up off the bench he was sitting on, and left not even giving the women any info on where he could be reached.

There was another dog , that it's owner assured me was friendly, that attacked Smokey after about 5 minutes of increasingly rougher play, and I finally yelled at the dog to get away from Smokey, as I charged the dog. The women sat there the entire time on her butt, and did nothing to break it up. I understand a week later, her dog bit another dog in the ear which started bleeding. There is a teenager that comes down with a 7 month old untrained Pit Bull which always manages to injure one of the other dogs that it is playing with by biting it's lip or ear or paw. I told this 16 year old kid that he needed to train this dog months ago or he was going to have the dog from hell, and he did nothing to train it. When I see him on the path with the dog, I walk the other way.

I have a few other stories about different dogs and owners, but I think you get the point by now. Here is how I feel about dog parks in general:

1. It is not fair to turn your dog loose in a dog park if you are unsure of your dog's behavior in that situtation. It get's really ugly, if your dog attacks another dog and causes injury to that dog.

2. I always ask the owner(s) about the behavior of their dogs before I bring Smokey into the inclosure. This is only after I stand outside and observe for awhile, to see the demeanor of the other dogs that are in the park. If I have the slightest doubt, Smokey and I continue are walk and will come back at another time. Better safe than sorry.

3. I avoid going into the park if it is filled with teenagers and their dogs and the teenagers are not paying any attention to their pets and are talking instead on the cellphones. Many times, these dogs have very little training and the owner(s) are of zero help if a fight breaks out.

4. I know a few dog owners that just flat out refuse to bring their dogs to a dog park since they consider it much too risky..

There are a couple of people that I know very well and I know their dogs, and whenever they are in the park, I won't hesitate to bring Smokey in and she always has a great time.

Bobsk8,

I think you are so right. It's my responsability to keep Skye safe. When I see a gaggle of gooseheads out there gossiping while their dogs run riot, well I just don't want to be part of it. It seems like an excuse to me. Well, they've got other dogs to play with so relax and forget about them for a bit.

One night while they were all out there letting their dogs 'play', I heard Skye gruffling to herself. I went out to see what the problem was and there was a medium size white dog out there. S/he'd crossed the path and sat watching the owner from that far away. That dog was not enjoying the rough and tumble and sure enough there was a dog fight a little later which it probably saw coming for a while and had made itself scarce.

I kept my eye on the dog to be sure she was reunited with her owner. It took at least 10 minutes for the guy to notice that she was not part of the 'gang'.

Doberluv, if they don't already know about the access to the beach, I'm surely not going to tell them.