Nancy Grace has gone too far

[Bobsk8]

Bob - I talk to people about our dogs in common. I takl about nutrition and the need to train. I do NOT encourage people to get into the breed. Actually I spend a lot of time telling people who tell me they want a pit all the reasons they should reconsider.

Why?

Because I don't think this kind of dog is for everyone. Granted I only have a mix, and not a pure bred, but even with my mix i have met challenges that I haven't met with any other kind of dog I've had (i've had a gsd mix, an australian cattle dog mix, and a couple of lhasa apsos).

I do little things - because I'm a little person. I write letters. I talk to people. I know quite a few pit bull owners, I work with at least 3 other people who own pit bulls. All of the pbs I know are house pets, they are not used for fighting, they have not been game tested by rolling in one fight. They are just big goofballs that love their families.

My solution to the problem would probably sound like a lot of hot air to you. I think education and open minds are key. I think even minds like yours should try your best to remain open, as well as my own mind about what valid concerns you have about this breed that i love.

Do i sympathize with the people who get bit? Yes.

Do i think any kind of dog that displays true human aggression should be put down? Most definately, yes.

I do not feel that human aggression is something that should be strived for in this breed. It upsets me GREATLY that there are people who thinks this is okay and encourages it in their pbs. To this end, I have already made the commitment that if my Mojo EVER displays aggression to a human he WILL be taken to the vet to be put to sleep. This is not only my commitment to my dog but also to the society that I live in.

However, I also still do not feel that dog aggression that is properly managed is a huge issue. But again I try to be conscientous - my dog doesn't go to dog parks, or to dog day care, and I walk him on lead when we are out.

Again it comes down to education - a lot of people still do not know how to take care of the animals that they have. They may want to, but they don't know that by chaining their dog up they are causing harm. Maybe they want to do right by their dog, but their are circumstances that interfere with that wish.

Who knows?

Who are we to know what their lives are really like? All one can do is remain open minded and to try to spread the light of knowledge as far as you can.

This is what I try to do....

Very good comments.....

 

[pancho]

Since all the Pit Bull haters dodge my last questions about Pit Bulls at dog shows....I'll try another.

Why is it so hard to go after neglectful and abusive owners of Pit Bulls (and all breed for that matter) and get the people out of the dog business who create monsters (of any breed)?

Why oh why can't we go after the humans? It seems such a clear answer but yet the BSLers just want to wipe all, when so many wonderful and innocent would pay...why?

Why should so many pay for the crimes of so few? Please don't ignore this question...answer it and help me to understand your logic.

I hope your answer isn't....because it is easier

I don't know about all of the pit bull haters but your question about pit bulls at shows was answered.

I can give some answers to your other questions.
The one reason why it is so hard to go after the neglectful and abusive owners is there are not that many people who can judge what is neglectful or abusive. What you may see as abuse and neglect may not be the same as the next person. Some think it is abuse to leave a dog outside. That is nonsense and the people who think that cannot judge who is abusive or neglectful. That leaves out a certain majority of people. Some think it is abuse to work your dog. This is also nonsense and these people cannot be the judges.
The only way to prove neglect and abuse is to go to court. Most of the time this is unnecessary. Finding a jury that will agree on what is abuse or neglect may be hard to find in many areas.
People cannot be arrested for their thoughts, only when they put those thoughts into action.
It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a lot of people do not think of the pit bull as wonderful and innocent. We still have a majority rule. If the majority think the pit bull should be banned it will be.

The same can be said about people breeding monster dogs. Who has the right to say they cannot breed what they want. Surely not the same people who complain when a ban goes into effect on their choosen breed. What gives them the right to say their dog cannot be banned but try to get other people to give up their dog?

Many people are under the impression they can take their pit bulls everywhere they go and prove to the other people that pit bulls are really nice dogs. Not many times does this work. What ends up happening is for every person they may convince they also make a dozen enemies. You cannot win if you take one step forward and twelve back.
If a person wants a pit bull they should have that dog. They should not try to force the dog on others. That only makes others hate the breed even more. People have the right to hate a certain breed just as much as other people have the right to love a breed. We still go with the majority. If there are more that hate a breed they have the right to ban that breed.

What it all comes down to is the normal pit bull is a large, strong, and aggressive dog. Even if they do not bite as much as other breeds, when they do they do a lot more damage. There may be many other breeds that will bite as much but very few can do the damage a pit bull can. Other breeds are a lot easier to break off of a person or animal. The pit bull may have to be killed before it releases its grip.

The owner of the pit bulls are the reason they are getting banned. Not just the BYB or the gang thug. Look at any of the forums about pit bulls. See how many post you can read before some person will threaten another just because of the size or color of their dog.
Look even on this forum, if a person says they do not like the pit bull there will be several jump all over them. They may have a reason but that doesn't matter. Even on here the members try to force their dog on those who do not want anything to do with the breed.
Does anyone think this has helped?

 

[Amstaffer]

I don't know about all of the pit bull haters but your question about pit bulls at shows was answered.

?

Pancho I don't count you as one of the Pit Bull haters...to the contrary..you I believe to be a Pit Bull liker (perhaps lover)

 

[mojozen]

Look even on this forum, if a person says they do not like the pit bull there will be several jump all over them. They may have a reason but that doesn't matter. Even on here the members try to force their dog on those who do not want anything to do with the breed.
Does anyone think this has helped?

Based off of watching the interactions on this thread, I - as a pb owner - do not believe that Bob's mind has been changed. I get the feeling that Bob isn't very appreciative of the tatics used, and thus instead of us pb owners changing his/her mind about pbs, we've instead made his/her opinion even worse. This makes me feel rather sad and disappointed.

I wish I could change his or her mind, so that if we ever meet they would want to meet Mojo. Or maybe just change it so that's one more person who says "hey wait a minute - you know pit bulls and other bully breeds aren't as bad as you may think. Here let me tell you about a few I know..." and go onto just tell stories about Mojo or about amstaff's dogs, or about maybe a dog they know in real life.

But... if we can't change his/her mind... then we can't. We've tried. But we failed... maybe someone else will succeed.

 

[Amstaffer]

Based off of watching the interactions on this thread, I - as a pb owner - do not believe that Bob's mind has been changed. I get the feeling that Bob isn't very appreciative of the tatics used, and thus instead of us pb owners changing his/her mind about pbs, we've instead made his/her opinion even worse. This makes me feel rather sad and disappointed.

I wish I could change his or her mind, so that if we ever meet they would want to meet Mojo. Or maybe just change it so that's one more person who says "hey wait a minute - you know pit bulls and other bully breeds aren't as bad as you may think. Here let me tell you about a few I know..." and go onto just tell stories about Mojo or about amstaff's dogs, or about maybe a dog they know in real life.

But... if we can't change his/her mind... then we can't. We've tried. But we failed... maybe someone else will succeed.

Good post...

One reason I get frustrated is because when I get to meet someone who is scared or dislikes Pit Bulls, I usually don't need to say anything...I just open the car door and Sal and Athena convert them in seconds.

I have yet to have a person meet Sal and Athena and continue to think Pit Bulls are evil. I have had people try to convince me that my dogs aren't Pit Bulls (some how they can still love my dogs and yet keep their prejudice )

On these message boards it is so much harder

I have posted these before (My pups and some of my grand kids) but sometimes a picture is worth a 1k words.

Can you see the sweetness and softness in Athena's eyes?

 

[elegy]

For what it's worth to anybody, and at the risk of being a killed messenger, I figured this argument could use some actuals. This is a report entitled, "Dog attack deaths and maimings, US & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006," authored by Merritt Clifton, Editor of Animal People.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf

being that their numbers were compiled from press accounts i'm going to take that with a REALLY big grain of salt.

the bottom line is that there ARE no good dog bite numbers nationwide. some small areas can and do keep track, but any national stats (like those put forth by the CDC) are a shot in the dark.

 

[elegy]

So cities like Miami have banned the dog, and to them, they have solved the problem. The citizens are happy and feel safer. If people that would normally buy a PB, then start buying Rottweilers from the same reasons, then the focus will probably switch to that breed. There is nothing that I can see that will do anything to reverse this trend. One thing that doesn't do the anti-ban people any good is to try and make the victim look foolish and that is what happens on many of these threads that I have read on this topic.

are you serious? there are tons of pit bulls in miami. they have not "solved the problem". they've banned the breeding of pit bulls in ontario, but there are always rescues trying to get newly born pit bull pups out of the province.

winnipeg banned pit bulls in 1990 and in the following years, bites went up. not by pit bulls. there were hardly any reported bites by pit bulls. (link)

breed banning doesn't work. enforcing responsible ownership (ie, licensing, leash laws, etc), actually freaking FINING people for dogs at large, and outlawing chaining would be far more effective, imnsho.

 

[ToscasMom]

The report is not a Dog Bite report, it is a report of Killings and Maimings(critical or severe injuries) by breed. Less serious bites are not covered in her report. That would probably tally into hundreds of thousands. So, unless we assume that local press only covers some killings and maimings and not others, the use of local press conduits in both countries was probably her most accessible means of reference for tallying.

 

[pancho]

Pancho I don't count you as one of the Pit Bull haters...to the contrary..you I believe to be a Pit Bull liker (perhaps lover)

For many years I loved the pit bull very much. I am not so sure anymore. The more I see about them on the web, especially in the forums, the less I care for them. The dogs did not do anything to change my mind, they are still a great dog. I have owned many pit bulls and did extensive research on them. There has been a change in the owners in the last 20-25 years. The owners are the ones who are causing so much hate for the breed. The owners are the reason I would not have a pit bull nowdays.
Several cities near me have enacted bans already. Last week there were two different pit bull attacks within 15 miles from where I live. One was in a city that has been doing surveys on the banning of the pit bull. It is a sure bet now.
The owners of the dogs in the last two attacks were not the dog fighters or the gang thugs. They were the owner who chose to have a pit bull and argues there wasn't any danger from attack from their dogs. I know one personally and know the dog. The other I know of as he is one of the main opponents of a dog ban. His dog was running loose and attacked a man. The man I know I have been trying for about 6 months to get him to contain his dog better. In his opinion his dog would never hurt a person. The police had to shoot the dog to get him to release a man he had attacked.
From what I have saw and read for the last year the same people who think they are helping the breed are the ones who will cause it to be banned.
If it comes up to a vote whether to ban the pit bull in my area I will not vote either way. I do not want to see a ban but there will soon have to be something done. The owners are not going to do anything except argue and make excuses. That will not stop a ban.
All you have to do is go to a few of the forums and see the type of owners the breed has nowdays.

 

[elegy]

The report is not a Dog Bite report, it is a report of Killings and Maimings(critical or severe injuries) by breed. Less serious bites are not covered in her report. That would probably tally into hundreds of thousands. So, unless we assume that local press only covers some killings and maimings and not others, the use of local press conduits in both countries was probably her most accessible means of reference for tallying.

i think it is a reasonable assumption that the media does not cover all dog attacks fairly and equally, not to mention accurately. breeds are frequently mis-reported and mis-represented, and not just pit bulls. i once saw a local story about a "pit bull" attack that was actually a farmer being crushed by a *bull*. as in moo.

so, yeah. my confidence in the media isn't particularly high.

edited to add: even if the numbers ARE accurate, or close to accurate, breed is just ONE part of a very complicated problem. i'd like to know how many of those dogs were chained, how many were running at large, how many actually lived in the house with the owners, how many were licensed, how many were up to date on vaccines/veterinary care, how many were intact, how many had received any formal obedience training at all, how many were recently acquired, and what purpose the dog served for the owner (housepet, guardian, sporting, breeding, etc). all of those things are important aspects as well, but far too often ignored because breed is "easy".

it's so easy to discriminate based on looks.

 

[Bobsk8]

are you serious? there are tons of pit bulls in miami. they have not "solved the problem". they've banned the breeding of pit bulls in ontario, but there are always rescues trying to get newly born pit bull pups out of the province.

winnipeg banned pit bulls in 1990 and in the following years, bites went up. not by pit bulls. there were hardly any reported bites by pit bulls. (link)

breed banning doesn't work. enforcing responsible ownership (ie, licensing, leash laws, etc), actually freaking FINING people for dogs at large, and outlawing chaining would be far more effective, imnsho.

Yes I am serious. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have posted what I did. The Pit Bulls that are left in Miami under the grandfather clause in the law would have to be at least 17 years old. They had to be registered before 1989. There is a a $500 fine for anyone caught with a Pit Bull and anyone with a Pit usually winds up dumping it in Broward County, which has caused real problems there.

here is the law 5-17 and a link to the law...

By the way, that is one of the problems in the discussion. Someone states a fact and then someone else disputes it with no basis for the dispute at all other than to try and discredit the person that posted it. That gets old real fast, and becomes obvious to people in my opinion.



It is illegal in Miami-Dade County to own any dog which substantially conforms to a pit bull breed dog, unless it was specially registered with Miami-Dade County prior to 1989. Acquisition or keeping of a pit bull dog: $500.00 fine and County Court action to force the removal of the animal from Miami-Dade County. ONLY an Animal Services Investigator trained in pit bull identification will determine if the dog conforms to pit bull breed standards.

http://animals.miamidade.gov/regulations.asp

 

[shadowfacedanes]

What it all comes down to is the pit bull owner is responsible for the dog bans. Others are not to blame when another persons dog gets loose and kills other animals. The owners are responsible. Many are too busy trying to tell people how to breed their pit bull, complaining about the color and size of another persons pit bull, telling everyone how bad they are and how bad their dog is, trying to tell others they should not have a pit bull, and telling others their pit bull is of low quality.
The media is not to blame for reporting the news. The person with the dead dog or dead animals are not to blame. The person who was attacked is not to blame. The blame is entirely the responsibility of the pit bull owners.
Maybe one day saving the breed will be more important than all the complaining and blaming others.
Dog aggression, people aggression, and animal aggression is not the real problems. The problem is the owners. If they take responsibility for their dogs and take reasonable care of their dogs there is not a problem. If they would choose a dog small enough or one with out the strength and bite to damage other people and animals there would not be a problem.
When they choose a dog with the power, bite, and size to do damage they are now the problem.
Pit bulls are not the problem, people are the problem. The only way to control some people is to take away what is causing the problems.

I agree with your post.

However, something for everyone to chew on....

Perhaps no other breed experiences such a division of owners as pit bulls.
Yes, every breed has bad owners, but Pit Bull owners can be divided into two branches. The fighters/status symbol seekers who only value the bad of the breed, and the true pit bull fanatic who loves them for their good qualities.

The good owners are not causing BSL. The good owners are not letting their dogs run amok. The good owners are raising and training wonderful representatives of their breed.

BUT, the bad owners are damaging all of this. BSL is not going to solve this because these types of owners already disregard the law...Do the lawmakers actually think they are going to bow down to BSL and stop owning their man made timebombs?

I've seen a video (a horrible, horrible video) about pit bull fighting. Dogs that don't make the grade are either "plugged" or otherwise killed inhumanely, or set free on the streets, damaged and mentally ruined by the "life" they have lived. I'm sure once forced to survive in the wild, they begin to become aggressive, fearful and problematic. This can't help the bite statistics.

I have met pit bull after pit bull and even the toughest one I ever met softened up to me in no time and even allowed me to get him off of his chain and play with him. I don't understand the irrationality of fearing or hating a breed. It's been stated before that all breeds are capable of killing. Why single out a breed when it's the owners who are perpetuating this cycle.

And I'll echo the sentiments that dog aggression don't mean jack squat in the people aggression argument.

 

[DoglessInSeattle]

One case...I have emailed pictures of someone who had dogs in a dangerous and abusive setup to my alderman. He in turn sent out animal control to investigate. The lady in question ended up "selling" some of her dogs and cleaned up the conditions for the two she kept. Did I cure it? No, the two dogs she has are still in bad (better but still bad in my book) conditions but she has few dogs and made some improvements...... I will continue you to watch her.

One solution I have and would love to see is that dog owners would need to obtain a license to own dogs. If you didn't prove knowledge and ability needed to keep a dog correctly you could own dogs. Also if you ever proved unfit to own a dog you could have your "right" to own a dog suspended or revoked.

We do it for cars...why not man's best friend?

I would also love to see anti-animal abuse laws would be enforced more strickly.

I realize I'm late to this party, matter of fact, I haven't even read all 37 pages. But, I like this approach.

I think you'll find that most of the gang-banger wannabes would prefer to be caught wearing tight shorts, polo shirts and hats on frontwards before they would attend a training class.

Might put an end to the entire problem.

 

[Bahamutt99]

I hear this same Mantra over and over again. Wait until the person, or dog, or child, gets attacked and then and only then go after the owner. Kinda like not bothering the drunk driver until he or she actually hits someone or causes and accident, and then, arresting and punishing them......

I'm a bit confused. Are you talking about regulating the breed as an answer to people getting attacked by dogs? Or are you talking about doing something about the people who have repeated problems over the years, before their dog hurts somebody? For example, my neighbors' two dogs keep getting out, and its been a problem for a while. If going after people like that is the kind of preventative measures you'd like to see, I'm all for it. But if you'd rather send AC next door to have a look at my dog, who is multi-titled and has never caused a problem, you're barking up the wrong tree.

The irresponsible owners are out there for everybody to see. Why should it matter what breed they own? Why should my neighbors with the mongrels receive less scrutiny for their deviant behavior than I receive for being a good citizen?

 

[Bahamutt99]

I haven't read one solution that has been offered yet, that made any sense.

So you don't like the idea of requiring everybody to get a license to own a dog? Shucks. I thought that one might level the playing field a bit. Because it wouldn't matter if you wanted to own a GSD and I want to own an APBT; we'd both have to get licenses, and we'd both have an idea that the other has some sort of qualifications to be owning a dog.

 

[Bobsk8]

So you don't like the idea of requiring everybody to get a license to own a dog? Shucks. I thought that one might level the playing field a bit. Because it wouldn't matter if you wanted to own a GSD and I want to own an APBT; we'd both have to get licenses, and we'd both have an idea that the other has some sort of qualifications to be owning a dog.

It's just not practical. In the suburbs of Atlanta, they estimate that around 20% of the drivers who are illegal immigrants are driving around with either no drivers licenses at all or phoney ones. If the state can't regulate that, how far do you think they will get regulating dog owners?

 

[Amstaffer]

dogs did not do anything to change my mind, they are still a great dog. ....If it comes up to a vote whether to ban the pit bull in my area I will not vote either way. .

Those two comments coming from the same person confuse me, if the dog is great and the owners are wrong why band the breed?

 

[pancho]

I agree with your post.

However, something for everyone to chew on....

Perhaps no other breed experiences such a division of owners as pit bulls.
Yes, every breed has bad owners, but Pit Bull owners can be divided into two branches. The fighters/status symbol seekers who only value the bad of the breed, and the true pit bull fanatic who loves them for their good qualities.

The good owners are not causing BSL. The good owners are not letting their dogs run amok. The good owners are raising and training wonderful representatives of their breed.

BUT, the bad owners are damaging all of this. BSL is not going to solve this because these types of owners already disregard the law...Do the lawmakers actually think they are going to bow down to BSL and stop owning their man made timebombs?

I've seen a video (a horrible, horrible video) about pit bull fighting. Dogs that don't make the grade are either "plugged" or otherwise killed inhumanely, or set free on the streets, damaged and mentally ruined by the "life" they have lived. I'm sure once forced to survive in the wild, they begin to become aggressive, fearful and problematic. This can't help the bite statistics.

I have met pit bull after pit bull and even the toughest one I ever met softened up to me in no time and even allowed me to get him off of his chain and play with him. I don't understand the irrationality of fearing or hating a breed. It's been stated before that all breeds are capable of killing. Why single out a breed when it's the owners who are perpetuating this cycle.

And I'll echo the sentiments that dog aggression don't mean jack squat in the people aggression argument.

I don't think you really agree with me at all.

If there is anyone on this forum that has been around the pit bulls for years, I am not talking about just a few dogs for a few years? I mean around hundreds of dogs for 20 or more years. Years ago about the only people who owned a pit bull were either dog fighters of people who had a working pit bull. We did not have problems with the pit bull attacking people then, most people didn't even know what a pit bull looked like.

The real dog fighter is not the problem. They do not have dogs attacking people. They do not have a problem with their dogs escaping. They may be guilty of cruelty but they do not add to the problem of the pit bull attacks. They do not let their dogs run loose and do not release their culls to run free and cause problems. The sensational videos are not of real pit bull fighters. They are mostly just kids who know little about the breed. Some are staged for the benefit of others.

Most people will make their decisions about the pit bull from a very limited exposure to a limited number of dogs. Some argueing will have no exposure to the dogs but will know a person who had one. Some will only have experience with crossbreeds.

The above post is an example of a person who has limited experience with the pit bull. Their intentions are great. I am sure they take very good care of their dog. They are real nice people. They also make an accusation against the dog fighters that isn't true. The people they are talking about are not a true dog fighter. They are an example of the younger pit bull owner that has come about in the last 20 years. No serious pit bull owner would let a stranger near their dogs and I can assure you they would never let a stranger release their dog to be played with. Anyone who would do that is one of the reasons the breed is being banned. They are under the impression that all pit bulls are the same just because of their limited experience with a very limited number of dogs. They may or may not be really talking about pit bulls.

Every time there is a discussion about the pit bull there are many post from people who never owned a pit bull. Some may own a pit bull and base all of their decisions and beliefs on that single dog. Some may own several pit bulls but they do the same thing. When any facts are presented there is always the excuse there are many pit bulls and the problem is only a very few of the breed. That may be true but they are basing their decision on a very few representatives of the breed.

If you ask a person their age, number of years experience, number of dogs they are basing their decisions on, etc you get all kind of excuses about they may be young but they have learned a lot more than any other person could possible do in many years. This isn't true. It isn't possible for a person to be a very experienced pit bull owner if they do not have years of experience and owned many different pit bulls. It may be true they know a very limited number of pit bulls very well and they have studied the dogs very much.

Like I said earlier. The true dog fighter is not the problem when it comes to pit bull attacks, chaining isn't the problem when it comes to pit bull attacks, even neglect and abuse isn't the problem when it comes to pit bull attacks. While these things may be problems they do not add to the reason the bans are being enacted neither do they cause an increase in pit bull attacks.

The majority of pit bull attacks are from dogs that are owned by those who complain about all of the above things. They have the idea the pit bull can be treated just like any other dog. This is wrong. The pit bull is not now nor has ever been a lap dog. It has always been a working dog and when it is used for work by people who know what they are doing there are not any attacks. It was that way for hundreds of years. The attacks began when people began to keep the pit bull for pets only. They tried to keep them just like they had kept other breeds for years. It didn't work.

In another post I explained about the recent attacks near my home by pit bulls. One owner was an opponent of BSL. He had his dogs to show the pit bull was not naturally aggressive. He was a person who took great care of his dog. He experience was with a very limited number of dogs. He thought just because the pit bulls he knew were gentle dogs then all the rest of the breed would also be if given the chance. He did not know many pit bulls mature at a different age and may become aggressive when they mature. One of his dogs had to be shot before he released his grip on the man he attacked.
The other man routinely let his dogs get out but was not conserned as he did not fight his dogs, did not abuse his dogs, did not neglect his dogs, trained and esposed his dogs to other dogs. His dog attacked a man walking down the street. He didn't know the one simple rule every experienced pit bull owner knows. Your dog will act differently when you are not there than they do when you are physically there.

The problem with the pit bull is from two different groups of people.
First, those who want the big bad dog to impress others. Those who post on forums how bad their dog is and how bad they are personally just by having such a dog, if you don't believe them they will come find you and prove it. When you find out who they really are you find young kids with a very vivid imagination. Sometimes you will find an older person who has little or no experience with the pit bull but has read a few books on them.
Second by those people who think the pit bull can be treated like other breeds. They think by they can change hundreds of years of selective breeding just by training and treating the pit bull like other breeds. They think by showing videos of dog fighting they can stop the abuse of pit bulls. This part may be true but it doesn't have a thing to do with pit bull attacks. They think that abuse and neglect are the cause of the bans. That is wrong. The issues are separate. Abuse and neglect are completely a different issue than dog attacks. They try to group all of these together.

Check back into the history of the pit bull. Check back in history for pit bull attacks. It is easy to find when the pit bull attacks started.

 

[Amstaffer]

It's just not practical. In the suburbs of Atlanta, they estimate that around 20% of the drivers who are illegal immigrants are driving around with either no drivers licenses at all or phoney ones. If the state can't regulate that, how far do you think they will get regulating dog owners?

There is a difference between CAN"T and WON"T!

 

[Amstaffer]

Abuse and neglect are completely a different issue than dog attacks. .

I strongly disagree with you here. Pit Bulls who are raised in a loving, well socialized and educated home have a much better chance of being good citizens.