I hope I don't offend anyone with this...

BostonBanker · Mar 4, 2007

Yup, I really don't disagree with everything you are saying; it's more a matter of degrees. It is an "attitude" to say "I would never get a rescue, because they have issues. There is a reason someone gave them up." If not an attitude, at least a falsehood. There are plenty of great rescue dogs that were given up through no fault of their own. And yes, there are plenty with uncontrollable behavior problems that nobody wanted to deal with. And your purebred golden puppy could turn out to be everything sweet and soft and wonderful that a golden should be, or it could not.

As I said, I have no issues with someone going to a good breeder to get exactly what they want. I'd never think less of someone who did it instead of rescue - they need to get the dog that is going to meld the best into their lives, and if that's a purebred puppy, go for it.

Yes, there are downsides to getting a rescue, and people should be aware of it. Whether looking for a rescue or a PB, I think the big thing is to do research into where that dog is coming from. Find a breeder or a shelter/rescue that has the best interests of you and the dog in mind, and want the match to be successful. We can all agree on that, right?

Doberluv · Mar 4, 2007

There are specific traits in the various breeds which are selected for through artificial selection. All dogs have behaviors which are "dog" behaviors and which have been passed on through many, many generations, going back to their wolf ancestors. All dogs possess many of these behaviors to a greater or lesser degree than others. For instance, all dogs are capable of biting, defending, retrieving, (because it's part of hunting and animal and bringng it back to consume) stalking, chasing, grabbing, protecting. Dogs are dogs. There is no gene for aggression per say (to date). However, developmental onset and off sets are varied between breeds from artifical selection of certain traits. With that, predatory motor patterns are varied and stronger in some than others. What goes on in the brain chemistry, among other factors IS genetic. So, the predisposition of certain traits is genetic, although the trait itself is not.

We all know that Pit Bulls have been selected for to fight other animals. Greyhounds have been selected for running fast. Running is a trait that all dogs possess. But Greyhounds have been selected for running faster than other dogs. Blood hounds have been selected for being especially good at tracking a scent. All dogs can track a scent, but Bloodhounds have been selected to do it better.

Temperament is something the dog is born with. Temperaments do vary, as we all know. They do in every animal. However, compensations can be made with nurture and environment to some degree. Some dogs will tend toward more aggressiveness. But that does not mean that that trait itself is hereditary. And it can be modified to some degree. If my Doberman had been mistreated or unsocialized, he may have turned out to be more aggressive than a Labrador, (for example). But a Labrador can still become aggressive with bad handling because it's a dog thing, not a breed thing. However, their thresholds are probably very different. The Lab may be able to tolerate more aversive stimuli than a Doberman because of the wiring in the brain.

Dogs with unknown parentage, unknown selection are more of a crap shoot. Purebred dogs whose ancestory can be traced are more homegenous, more the same.

Don't let it disturb you. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't make such rash generalizations. However, it is more of an unknown in many cases than going to a reputable breeder for a dog whose parentage one knows and whose breed traits are known. You don't know if the partents or grandparents of a shelter dog had hip dysplasia, unless there is a record. You don't know what temperament a puppy has without some ancestoral record. Testing helps, but it's only one part of the equation. I realize that many, many wonderful dogs exist in shelters. That's only logical. The point I'm making is that it is more of an unknown, a little more of a guessing game than a purebred dog whose ancestors are traceable and who comes from a reputable breeder.

smkie · Mar 4, 2007

my main concern with shelters right now is the viruses that are circulating and very contagious. If someone tells me they want such a dog i try to direct them to petfinder.com because i believe that there they will make a more considered decision. THey will have a chance to talk to the rescuer that knows something about this dog, and often many of these dogs are being fostered in someone's home. Often these dogs have been removed from the high stress atmosphere and are being a little stablized and prepared for their next move in life. WHile the dogs at the shelter need desperately to be rescued people that go for a dog such as Victor would not be prepared for the decompressing he needed nor would they understand it takes MONTHS for some dogs. He was not a baby, he was 5 months old and as confused as he can get. When Bronki died i figured i had enough life in me for one more dog. Dogs are something i value above anything else but my children so the decision was one i took seriously. I had a friend offer to buy me the pup of my choice (within reason) any breed. Instead i found myself drawn to petfinder where day after day i searched, no dog i saw stuck that chord until Vic's page popped up. IT was an instant connection that i don't think i would even have had at a breeder. THe reason i would have gone to a breeder was for the hope of a baby, 8 weeks, roly poly fat, untraumatized. A little bit of a guarantee that he wasn't full of parvo and worms. THat his breeding would have been well considered and he was the prime (i worked in reputible a kennel for a long time) and that this dog would grow into the incredible intelligent thinking machine that a field labrador could be. I don't know what to expect of other breeds. INstead i got a little post stress pointer that needed me more then i needed him. IT was the right decision but i would never fault anyone if they did all their homework and wanted the lab i described as long as they did their best to be the guardians that baby needs for a life time. AS long as they do that i see very little difference. Not everyone is cut out to rescue. THat doesn't mean they shouldn't have a dog.

ToscasMom · Mar 4, 2007

I feel like I am in an episode of That's Incredible here. I really just don't understand why anyone should have to explain to someone else why they choose a specific breed of dog or the way they choose a dog. Nor do I see why anyone should even imagine that they have the right to declare who should own a purebreed dog and who shouldn't. I just don't see why it's really anybody's place to question personal decisions such as this, particularly when it comes to relationships, and I consider the long term commitment of a owning a dog as a relationship. I decided to reduce the odds that my cats, who are just as important to me as any of your dogs are to you, would be killed by a dog of unknown heritage, aggressive tendencies or parentage. We all know that heredity/genetics can play a huge role here right along with environment. We are talking about probability here, and probability is pretty strong stuff when you throw all the anecdotal stories in with the rest of the statistics.

I preferred to meet the parents of my dog, I preferred to study dog breed temperaments in general to reduce the probability that what happened to one of my friends would happen to me. She ended up spending two years worrying about ways in which to barrier her dog from her cats, it was a freaking full time job--until one day she had to leave the home in a hurry for a family emergency and came home to find a dead cat. Her biggest regret in the end was that she didn't have at least some idea what this dog was going to grow up to be first. Her second regret was that she didn't get rid of the dog before it killed her cat. I am not willing to take that chance, nor am I up to the experiment. Statistics don't mean much...unless you are ONE of them. I don't walk on the side of chance when it comes to the lives the my family members. And considering that these types of decisions are personal and related to other people's personal lives and wants, I just don't understand what part of that requires anybody here or anywhere else to be forced to rigorously explain their choice to anybody else much less be held up to criticism for it.

I still do not see why this type of PERSONAL decision is really a decision that requires approval of anybody else or is even worth others spending their time meddling into it. The way I see the criticism running here, one would think we who own a purebreed type of dog by choice were a few steps below axe murderers. It's almost as if we aren't even here while we are being discussed.

While I recognize that there are many animals that are abandoned, and many children in poverty, and on and on and on, I do not see where every one of our life choices should have to revolve around the bad choices of others. That is a recipe for self-failure if ever there was one. I have most certainly done my part for animals in rescue, although some of you would prefer I did it for dogs rather than cats (shrug), and I have certainly done my part for the human condition, and I always give what I can and volunteer where I can for those causes that have meaning to me, I am NOT willing to sacrifice myself to these causes in such a way that I program myself to become a victim myself.

Frankly, I have reached a stage in my life where I am pretty much sick and tired of being held personally responsible and finding others trying to force me into a guilt trip for all the crap left behind by every sh*thead in the world.

Groch · Mar 4, 2007

ToscasMom said:

I agree, you should not have to explain it to someone else. No one is forced to be on this thread. If a friend or acquaintance should ask, I think it is perfectly acceptable to say that it is a personal matter, or to explain it.

The person who started this thread is pretty new here and seems to ask an honest question. "Why would someone would pay a breeder a huge amount of money for a dog when there are thousands of wonderful puppies and dogs who need to be adopted."

I do not think it was meant in an accusatory way, and their have been a lot of great answers from those who do want to explain their decision.

I will make one personal judgment. I think any responsible dog owner will ask this question to themselves along with other questions before making a decision.

DemitriousK · Mar 4, 2007

Scooter said:

You're making a huge assumption here that "temperament" is the same things as "aggression" Temperament is a term which encompasses a great many characteristics. From ability to quickly adapt to new things and situations, to the probability of being afraid, to how they'll react with small kids dangling off their ears, to whether they'll readily accept strangers in the home. and probably a great many other things that there are more qualified people on this board to cite.

But please don't read "knowing the temperament of a purebred dog" as "a guarantee of the dog not being aggressive. Because thats just not a correct interpretation.

Scooter · Mar 4, 2007

Posted by TocasMon: "I still do not see why this type of PERSONAL decision is really a decision that requires approval of anybody else or is even worth others spending their time meddling into it. The way I see the criticism running here, one would think we who own a purebreed type of dog by choice were a few steps below axe murderers. It's almost as if we aren't even here while we are being discussed"

My Response-
As the original poster, I am relatively new here and was posting a genuine question without judgement; hence the title of the post. Many people have subsequently posted understandable reasons they chose purebred dogs that make total sense. That's why I asked. I have to wonder about those who are getting awfully defensive. No one is telling anyone what to do.

Groch · Mar 4, 2007

smkie said:

I think you make a good point that had not yet been brought up. When I went looking for a dog, part of it was because I wanted a companion, but part was also that I was feeling I wanted to do some good. If I adopted from a community animal shelter I would be doing that. In other words, adopting the dog made me feel good about myself.

It was not a heroic deed, he is a little guy and most small dogs with no issues get adopted anyway. But each time I look at him I think about how lucky we both are to have each other, and that makes me feel good all over again.

That may come off as self righteous but it was not meant that way.

ToscasMom · Mar 4, 2007

And what is it exactly that you wonder?

Buddy'sParents · Mar 4, 2007

Let's keep this civil folks.

I guess what we all need to realize is, that each and every one of us has our dogs for a reason. I love my Buddy and wouldn't trade him for a purebred lab or gsp with perfect health.

We all love our dogs- that is what is most important.

RedyreRottweilers · Mar 4, 2007

Bottom line, all dogs need and deserve great homes, no matter what their lineage or lack thereof might be.

I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

There is DEFINITELY a place for the responsible breeding of purebred dogs. Many GREAT dogs are also found in shelters or through rescue that will live long happy lives without serious health issues.

SOME people are more comfortable being able to research a background on a dog, or they may want to show their dog.

Pedigrees have nothing to do with warm kisses, loving glances, and snuggling up on the sofa with a furry pal.

Those of us who love, fancy, and occasionally breed purebred dogs should not be subject to a jaundiced eye from others IF we pursue these activities with the required degree of responsibility.

That's my take after reading this novella.

ToscasMom · Mar 4, 2007

Thank you Redyre. And thank you for the beautiful Purebred Rotties that you produce!

J's crew · Mar 4, 2007

ToscasMom said:

Sadly, from what I have heard her only 2 litters have been disasters.

SizzleDog · Mar 4, 2007

Tosca'sMom - actually, I think this thread has stayed quite civil... the "rescue only" crowd is being MUCH nicer than I've seen in the past, on other forums.

I make it a point to never be "chased off" a forum, but there is one forum I did leave - I felt that it was not safe for me to continue on it, since there were some people on there who were so flippin' mad that I got Ronin (and grew out two puppies before settling on Ronin) that I was afraid for my dogs' safety. These same *fanatics* had tracked down posters "in real life" before, staking, harassment... you name it, they did it - to other people. I left before I became the next victim.

I'd like to thank everyone for keeping this thread realtively civil!

ToscasMom · Mar 5, 2007

Sizzle, that doesn't surprise me one bit. As our country continues to meddle more and more into people's personal choices even unto details, the My Way or You Are Expendable attitude is growing daily. If you think feeling threatened for having a well bred dog that you chose and paid for yourself is rough, you ought to try some of the political and religious boards I have seen.

adoptashelterpettoday · Mar 5, 2007

If you lived on a farm and wanted a herder, you would definantly want to make sure the dog had herding in it's past, hence getting a well bred working border collie..

Or if you want to do Sch with a GSD.

People want pure bred dogs to show as well. I can understand why someone wants a show dog. Rescue is pretty much my life but some day I wouldnt mind having a show quality dog. I think it would be fun just to try conformation out.

Like the one girl said, good luck finding a Fila in rescue, same with English Bulldogs and a couple other breeds.

I dont fault anyone for buying a pure bred dog, as long as it is from a responsible breeder.

MafiaPrincess · Mar 5, 2007

I have a 'rescue'. Roomie bought Cider, decided she didn't want a dog 4 months later, and was headed to a 7 day - no kill shelter. Pet store bought, but not by me, and of unknown heritage. So far we've had no medical issues and at 2 and a half I'm pretty relieved since slipping knees are fairly prominent.
She's got a temperament that I wish was a little different. And she's been a pain in the butt to train. She's awfully timid, and very very shy, but thankfully doesn't embody what most people 'know' about cockers and how 'evil' they all are.
She's been an ambassador for the breed being herself.

With all those unknowns.. I don't want a second. My pup will be coming from north carolina where I've talked to the breed for near a year or more by the time my little boy may be ready. I'd like to dabble in conformation, see what it is really like, but that's not my primary reason for my next pup. I want the breeder to be able to help me pick a more outgoing dog. And one that has had a better chance that I can see. Health history, Generations of stable temperaments, and a desire and drive to work. While no puppy is easy, I don't think most would be the hell Cider and I went through to make it to adulthood.
I've had a few rescues email me ads about cockers, but many sound like possible Ciders. while I love her, I think 2 like her would kill me. And it may be possible that one a little more stable may help her out in the long run. She is a little more even seeming in a pack environment. Gets more comfortable with who she is. A dog who is more like her might help to drag each other down.

RedyreRottweilers · Mar 5, 2007

J's crew said:

with regard to J's Crew's comments:

#1, I don't think you are at all sad about it, or you would not make this sort of snide comment.

It is a fact. And not one I have ever tried to hide in any way. My first litter, born in July of 1996 was a health and temperament nightmare. Nothing from it was ever bred. You can find the pedigree if anyone would care to look at it, on Paw Village. Search for Clearview Achilles Braxx and you will find it. It was riddled with Elbow Dysplasia, 2 dogs were destroyed for temperament issues, and another was dead before age 2 of a strange form of cancer. I studied my breed for eight years before I leased the bitch to breed this litter. I used parents who were screened as normal for hips, elbows, eyes, and I had a doppler done on the bitch. I would have to go back through my records to see if the sire had a heart screening, I can't remember.

My second litter was bred in 2003, from an import bitch (V rated, BH AD IPO1) sent to an AKC CH young dog. I regret this breeding for several reasons, not the least of which is I bred this bitch without a heart screening. I later discovered she had produced a puppy with an inherited heart issue. Altho this could have come from the sire of that litter, it would make her suspect for carrying the genes that cause this condition. She now, at age 10, has an enlarged heart. She was 6 years old at the time of the breeding, and required an emergency C section. There were 3 surviving puppies. These 3 puppies acquired Parvo virus at the age of 9 weeks, and all of them died despite my desperate efforts without regard to costs (well over 3K) to try to save them.

If you have any questions at all about my past breedings, do feel free to ask me, but I do not appreciate your underhanded remarks on this thread when it was not I who brought up any breedings or dogs I have produced.

I have never claimed to have produced ANYTHING in this breed. I am very up front about what has happened with my 2 past litters, and I would greatly appreciate if you would not go on what you have "heard", when the source is right here.

If you have any other questions or comments about my past breedings, feel free to be direct.

RedyreRottweilers · Mar 5, 2007

For anyone else interested in grading my past performance:

A litter Pedigree:
http://www.pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=TWOJ1CB6T2

Sire of B litter
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=IPU4DY141A

Dam of B litter
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=1W681RJODY

PawPrint · Mar 5, 2007

The True Test

The true test of a breeder's metal is not in the mistakes they have made but in the lessons they learned from those mistakes.

Life is lived by trial and error

I hope I don't offend anyone with this...

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