Eye Contact

[lisabobisa]

So I know eye contact is a big thing in training dogs to pay attention to you and check for commands. I've just been kind of wondering about it lately. I mean, eye contact is rude behavior between dogs and most dogs don't willingly make eye contact with humans without training to do so (or if they're being rude to us). I get why it's a standard training exercise, it's great to have the pup checking in with you and trying to understand what you want from them. I just wonder if it'd be easier on them to train them to just check your body or something?

I'm not necessarily against "watch me" training, I just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. So what do you guys think?

 

[elegy]

i've not owned a dog who was uncomfortable making eye contact with me, even from the start. that would be my sample size of, um, six.

i think eye contact is more powerful than just looking at the body. it is also more specific, and the specific makes it easier to train and easier to use.

 

[Laurelin]

i've not owned a dog who was uncomfortable making eye contact with me, even from the start. that would be my sample size of, um, six.

i think eye contact is more powerful than just looking at the body. it is also more specific, and the specific makes it easier to train and easier to use.

I have had one dog that was very uncomfortable with it, but he was very skittish to begin with and not the most stable animal. He would never look at your face.

The rest of mine have never had a problem and all have looked me in the eye before working on a watch me command.

 

[JoeLacy]

Try clicker training, show the dog a treat then bring a treat up to your eye, when they follow the treat and make eye contact with your eyes say "watch me", click immediately then reward. Once your dog understands that watch me means eye contact and they get a treat, hold the stare longer and longer before reward to embed the behavior. Do this for no more that 2 mins at a time, but a few times a day.

Next move to the verbal command only, watch me, click and treat. Don't try this order of things first, the first order must be the physical cue (your hand to your eye) to "tie" the verbal command to the wanted behavior. Dogs learn physical cues before verbal, use that to your advantage.

Oh, another thing you can try is sit on the floor while training this. Standing over a dog can be intimidating and particularly with a smaller breed.

 

[corgipower]

I have only had one dog that was truly uncomfortable with eye contact -- and she had some other submissive issues going on a lot deeper than just eye contact.

Obedience eye contact really isn't about dominance/submission behaviors, it's not a hard stare, it's a watch.

However, I don't really stress the eyes as a focal point, mainly because I've had dogs that are physically uncomfortable with carrying their head pointing straight up. But I also find that the heeling is a lot more smooth and dance-like when the dog actually looks at the face/eyes than it is when he looks at the chest/stomach/knees/etc.

 

[adojrts]

Eye contact isn't rude behaviour..........dogs make eye contact all the time with each other. What is important is what the eyes are doing and what the rest of the body language is saying.

Soft, relaxed eyes are neither a threat nor a challenge. But if you combine hard, fixed eyes with a stiff body and slow movement that is either a threat or a challenge and all dogs understand that.

With submissive dogs, until they are comfortable with a person, they will not want to make eye contact. But after you have developed a good relationship with them, they will seek the eye contact just as any other dog will.

It is no different with people, have some fun with this one. Go to a public place..... tighten your body by not breathing nice and deep (shallow, rapid or holding your breath will tighten your body) and then harden your eyes (basically glare at someone you don't know). Hold the stare, if they are threatened by it, they will look at you and look away, move away if they can, fidget and be very uncomfortable, but they will continue to glance at you to see if you are still staring. You can make someone leave a room by doing this............
Now a very confident person, will stare back, with that WTF are you looking at expression, they will hold the stare, their body will stiffen...........and who wins or loses is the one who retreats first or looks away and then moves away. Worse case, they come to you and confront you.

You can do the same thing with soft eyes.

If it is someone you know, they may or may not respond unless you make it very extreme. Then they may question you............

It is also the reason why so many herding breeds can get such huge reactions out of other animals including dogs.........plus I think they like the game

Breeds that have a lot of hair over their eyes can have some really negative reactions from other dogs because the other dogs can't read them correctly and an offence is the best defence in that case.

 

[lisabobisa]

Try clicker training, show the dog a treat then bring a treat up to your eye, when they follow the treat and make eye contact with your eyes say "watch me", click immediately then reward. Once your dog understands that watch me means eye contact and they get a treat, hold the stare longer and longer before reward to embed the behavior. Do this for no more that 2 mins at a time, but a few times a day.

Next move to the verbal command only, watch me, click and treat. Don't try this order of things first, the first order must be the physical cue (your hand to your eye) to "tie" the verbal command to the wanted behavior. Dogs learn physical cues before verbal, use that to your advantage.

Oh, another thing you can try is sit on the floor while training this. Standing over a dog can be intimidating and particularly with a smaller breed.

No I wasn't saying I was having trouble teaching it. I've taught my dogs already and I know how it's done (I don't use a clicker but same principle). I was really just thinking about how when you first start training it (especially with a dog that's not your own) some dogs are reluctant to look you in the eye.

Eye contact isn't rude behaviour..........dogs make eye contact all the time with each other. What is important is what the eyes are doing and what the rest of the body language is saying.

Soft, relaxed eyes are neither a threat nor a challenge. But if you combine hard, fixed eyes with a stiff body and slow movement that is either a threat or a challenge and all dogs understand that.

With submissive dogs, until they are comfortable with a person, they will not want to make eye contact. But after you have developed a good relationship with them, they will seek the eye contact just as any other dog will.

That's a good point, body language definitely comes into play. But I don't usually notice dogs just staring each other in the eyes even if it is soft. Sometimes it's a prelude to play or they just catch each others' eyes, but they don't usually just keep staring (that I recall anyway, I might be forgetting something).

I know that dogs will seek eye contact when you've trained them that it's good and they do realize that it's a good thing. Domino stares at me a lot when fishing for tricks because she knows that's a good one. It's obviously not a challenge, her eyes are soft and she usually tilts her head to the side a little bit.

Maybe I am just thinking of more submissive dogs when I think about dogs who seem more reluctant to make eye contact. I work at a training facility where the dogs stay and are trained by our trainers, as opposed to the owner. Since the dog isn't as familiar with us I can see how they'd be more reluctant than they might be with their owner.

So what do you think? Do they become more okay with eye contact through training that it's a good thing, or do they just become more comfortable with you and then actually seek it on their own? Or a mix of both?

 

[JessLough]

Rosey instinctively makes eye contact with us. She goes crazy if we try to avoid it, it's like she needs it to be reassured that she is ok where she is, or something.

 

[lisabobisa]

Rosey instinctively makes eye contact with us. She goes crazy if we try to avoid it, it's like she needs it to be reassured that she is ok where she is, or something.

That's interesting. Is she kind of a nervous dog? If so that's great that she looks to you for guidance.

 

[JessLough]

That's interesting. Is she kind of a nervous dog? If so that's great that she looks to you for guidance.

Not really nervous... she just really wants to please us. I think it may have something to do with her past, she was found at 3 months and was in poor condition and you could see she had already been through so much.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I think dogs learn to enjoy making eye contact because they like the attention that follows. Kind of like how dogs learn that us smiling at them is a good thing.

I worked with one dog, a lab, who wasn't very comfortable making eye contact. I taught him to do it, but it took a long time for him to learn and it almost seemed painful. He was fairly submissive anyway, so I ended up just deciding that he simply wasn't comfortable making eye contact, and I began accepting him looking anywhere at my face, rather than directly into my eyes, when I cued him to watch me. Soon after this, I began training him to walk next to me in a wheelchair, where his face was almost level with mine, and all of a sudden he was giving me PERFECT eye contact, and maintaining it for long periods. So, I guess all that time he was just uncomfortable looking so far up.

 

[Dekka]

I would like to point out (amongst some other great points made) that dogs know we are not dogs. They do things with humans they don't with dogs and vice versa.

So even if you say dogs don't stare at other dogs.. ok, they don't heel with other dogs either.

 

[lisabobisa]

I would like to point out (amongst some other great points made) that dogs know we are not dogs. They do things with humans they don't with dogs and vice versa.

So even if you say dogs don't stare at other dogs.. ok, they don't heel with other dogs either.

True true. I guess with heeling though it wouldn't be strange for one dog to walk next to another dog where as at least some dogs seem to find eye contact uncomfortable.

But yeah I'm sure after awhile dogs just think "oh it's just another one of those weird human things "

 

[Laurelin]

No I wasn't saying I was having trouble teaching it. I've taught my dogs already and I know how it's done (I don't use a clicker but same principle). I was really just thinking about how when you first start training it (especially with a dog that's not your own) some dogs are reluctant to look you in the eye.



That's a good point, body language definitely comes into play. But I don't usually notice dogs just staring each other in the eyes even if it is soft. Sometimes it's a prelude to play or they just catch each others' eyes, but they don't usually just keep staring (that I recall anyway, I might be forgetting something).

I know that dogs will seek eye contact when you've trained them that it's good and they do realize that it's a good thing. Domino stares at me a lot when fishing for tricks because she knows that's a good one. It's obviously not a challenge, her eyes are soft and she usually tilts her head to the side a little bit.

Maybe I am just thinking of more submissive dogs when I think about dogs who seem more reluctant to make eye contact. I work at a training facility where the dogs stay and are trained by our trainers, as opposed to the owner. Since the dog isn't as familiar with us I can see how they'd be more reluctant than they might be with their owner.

So what do you think? Do they become more okay with eye contact through training that it's a good thing, or do they just become more comfortable with you and then actually seek it on their own? Or a mix of both?

Summer is pretty submissive and soft tempered. She is somewhat nervous in certain situations (like around other dogs) but she's got the most intense stare. She is a hardcore starer with people, she always has been. It's never seemed to freak HER out but many of my friends get nervous when she stares intently at them. She's in no way trying to dominate them or anything like that, she's just very interested in people and very observant. Anywhere I take her, she sits silently and alertly and just stares down anyone that walks past. Very few dogs I've known have stared as much as she does and as intensely. (And I'm pretty sure they've all been border collies lol) I've always joked that it's a good thing Summer is not a big dog for this reason. I think she'd scare the tar out of someone just for acting the way she does.

 

[lisabobisa]

Summer is pretty submissive and soft tempered. She is somewhat nervous in certain situations (like around other dogs) but she's got the most intense stare. She is a hardcore starer with people, she always has been. It's never seemed to freak HER out but many of my friends get nervous when she stares intently at them. She's in no way trying to dominate them or anything like that, she's just very interested in people and very observant. Anywhere I take her, she sits silently and alertly and just stares down anyone that walks past. Very few dogs I've known have stared as much as she does and as intensely. (And I'm pretty sure they've all been border collies lol) I've always joked that it's a good thing Summer is not a big dog for this reason. I think she'd scare the tar out of someone just for acting the way she does.

LOL I know a couple dogs at work like that. One weenie dog and one pit mix. When you walk past their crates they give you the huge puppy eye look with a head tilt. It's cute but kinda freaky at the same time.