Did I not say this was likely to be the next step?

[darkchild16]

But there are MARRIED people who dont want kids for VERY good reasons. Like me another kid could KILL me. We cant afford anymore currently either. So am I not to have sex with my HUSBAND until I have menopause to make sure that doesnt happen? Im not using it to have sex with all kinds of other guys Im using it to have sex with my HUSBAND.

Just because we live in a society with BC doesnt mean women dont want love and marriage.

 

[Danefied]

For the record, I'm a she

Edit: A tangentally related article I came on while scrolling through my blogroll:

Why Do Social Conservatives Hate Contraceptives So Much?

Food for thought

I figured you were Lilavati but didn't want to assume

And very interesting article. Thanks for the link. Need to re-read without distractions before I can comment though.

 

[Bunny82]

I hold mixed feelings on this issue.

On one hand it is appaling that a woman who suffered a miscarriage could potentially be trialed for murder.

On the other hand what about the women that know they are pregnant and still choose to engage in high risk behaviors?

And this is where I become confused because I want those people that are knowing doing things that are harmful to their unborn children to pay for their actions but I don't want someone who has no control over their body not being able to support a pregnancy to be placed in the same category.

 

[Danefied]

High risk behaviors... Hmmm...

When my mom was pregnant with me and my sister, she smoked and drank. In fact her doctor told her that red wine was good for her blood and that smoking was okay because it would keep her from gaining too much weight.

She also had 5 miscarriages.

If we're going to scrutinize the care of unborn children, why not apply that same scrutiny to born children too?
I co-slept with my children, was that high risk?
What about moms who prefer not to breastfeed when we know breastmilk is safer and prevents all sorts of ailments. Is formula feeding high risk?
What about parents who turn the car seat around too soon, or switch to a booster seat too soon, or put the kids in the front seat?
What about second hand smoke exposure? Shall we prosecute all parents who smoke around their kids? What about the ones who's 4 year olds are obese? Shall we prosecute them too?

Ooooorr shall we educate people as best we can and acknowledge that in the end people have free will?

 

[Renee750il]

It is better that ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer.
~ William Blackstone

It is better to risk saving a guilty man than to condemn an innocent one.
~ Voltaire

I have to hold with that, and yes, it can partially be turned to apply "innocent" to the miscarried in this case, but that twists the original thought.

I. The n Controversy

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," 2 says English jurist William Blackstone. The ratio 10:1 has become known as the "Blackstone ratio." 3 Lawyers "are indoctrinated" with it "early in law school." 4 "Schoolboys are taught" it. 5 In the fantasies of legal academics, jurors think about Blackstone routinely. 6

But why ten? Other eminent legal authorities through the ages have put their weight behind other numbers. "One" has appeared on Geraldo. 7 "It's better for four guilty men to go free than one innocent man to be imprisoned," says basketball coach George Raveling. 8 But "it's better to turn five guilty men loose than it is to convict one innocent man," according to ex-Mississippi executioner and roadside fruit stand operator Thomas Berry Bruce, who ought to know. 9 "It is better to let nine guilty men free than to convict one innocent man," counters lawyer Bruce Rosen from Madison, Wisconsin. 10 Justice Benjamin Cardozo certainly believed in five for execution, 11 and allegedly favored ten for imprisonment, 12 which is a bit counterintuitive. Benjamin Franklin thought "that it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer." 13 Mario Puzo's Don Clericuzio heard about letting a hundred guilty men go free and, "struck almost dumb by the beauty of the concept . . . became an ardent patriot." 14 Denver radio talk show host Mike Rosen claims to have heard it argued "in the abstract" that it's better that 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned, and comments, "Well, we get our wish." 15

Or, perhaps, it may be merely "a few," 16 "some," 17 "several," 18 "many" (and particularly more than eight), 19 "a considerable amount," 20 or even "a goodly number." 21 Not all commentators weigh acquitting the guilty against the conviction of one innocent man. A Missouri district court said in 1877 that it was "better that some guilty ones should escape than that many innocent persons should be subjected to the expense and disgrace attendant upon being arrested upon a criminal charge." 22 And in Judge Henry J. Friendly's opinion, "Most Americans would allow a considerable number of guilty persons to go free than to convict any appreciable number of innocent men." 23 It is unclear whether "considerable" is greater or less than "appreciable." 24 n Guilty Men

 

[darkchild16]

High risk behaviors... Hmmm...

When my mom was pregnant with me and my sister, she smoked and drank. In fact her doctor told her that red wine was good for her blood and that smoking was okay because it would keep her from gaining too much weight.

She also had 5 miscarriages.

If we're going to scrutinize the care of unborn children, why not apply that same scrutiny to born children too?
I co-slept with my children, was that high risk?
What about moms who prefer not to breastfeed when we know breastmilk is safer and prevents all sorts of ailments. Is formula feeding high risk?
What about parents who turn the car seat around too soon, or switch to a booster seat too soon, or put the kids in the front seat?
What about second hand smoke exposure? Shall we prosecute all parents who smoke around their kids? What about the ones who's 4 year olds are obese? Shall we prosecute them too?

Ooooorr shall we educate people as best we can and acknowledge that in the end people have free will?

exactly. with that way of thinking I could have been persecuted for drinking soda while I was pregnant or working. Or even raising my kids (stressful with connor)

let people be. Its their body!

 

[noludoru]

I will point out that the difference between trolling and "devil's advocate" is that first, you don't put up obnoxious graphics when people get mad, and two, it is considered polite to state that you are playing devil's advocate.

I'm going to ditto this. He had a point until the pics.

Might have been nice if you all had waited to ban him until he could read the replies to the thread, though.

Necho, dad says, and I quote, Quote: You dumbass, knock it off before you get assassinated.

I love your dad, haha. I'm coming out to CO so your parents can adopt me now. :rofl1:

 

[Lilavati]

But there are MARRIED people who dont want kids for VERY good reasons. Like me another kid could KILL me. We cant afford anymore currently either. So am I not to have sex with my HUSBAND until I have menopause to make sure that doesnt happen? Im not using it to have sex with all kinds of other guys Im using it to have sex with my HUSBAND.

Just because we live in a society with BC doesnt mean women dont want love and marriage.

Oh, I agree. Its just that I have always been mystified by the conservative distaste for contraceptives. I always suspected (and I've heard many liberals say) that it was related to a distaste for women's sexual freedom. But I've never actually heard them speak for themselves on the issue . . . and it turns out . . . well, that they believe that sexual freedom is destructive to society or sinful, or both.

I will, however, take it a step further than the gentleman who runs Outside the Beltway (whose opinion I respect) and say that this sort of thing is not only a war on freedom, but that is in particular a war, if not on women, than on the freedom of women.

 

[Bunny82]

Interesting read thank you Renee and something to think about. To a large extent I do agree with it but I would be lying if I did not say I would like to see something done to punish those who are guilty. I dont suppose there is anyway to really do that though so I guess it has little importance.

The only thing else I am going to say on this topic is I did not think by offering a different opinion I would need to be made to feel like a dumb ass.

Obviously I am not talking about people who are following doctors orders as your mom was when she was told to smoke and drink.
Or people who cosleep.

Or formula feed over breastfeed.
Or drink sodas when pregnant.

Thats just assinine.

Im talking about those woman for example that are doing some very hardcore drugs when they are fully aware of being pregnant.

Sorry I had offered a different opinion. I thought the topic could really be discussed from both sides aside from just saying "those poor women" because there are some women who do bring their miscarriages on themselves and they mean to do so.

In the future I will refrain from posting on threads that my thoughts may differ.

 

[darkchild16]

Oh, I agree. Its just that I have always been mystified by the conservative distaste for contraceptives. I always suspected (and I've heard many liberals say) that it was related to a distaste for women's sexual freedom. But I've never actually heard them speak for themselves on the issue . . . and it turns out . . . well, that they believe that sexual freedom is destructive to society or sinful, or both.

I will, however, take it a step further than the gentleman who runs Outside the Beltway (whose opinion I respect) and say that this sort of thing is not only a war on freedom, but that is in particular a war, if not on women, than on the freedom of women.

I figured you did I wasnt particularly replying to you but to the ideas in the article LOL.

Yes it is, and its shocking that people who claim they want freedoms are willing to supress those that dont concern them.

 

[darkchild16]

Interesting read thank you Renee and something to think about. To a large extent I do agree with it but I would be lying if I did not say I would like to see something done to punish those who are guilty. I dont suppose there is anyway to really do that though so I guess it has little importance.

The only thing else I am going to say on this topic is I did not think by offering a different opinion I would need to be made to feel like a dumb ass.

Obviously I am not talking about people who are following doctors orders as your mom was when she was told to smoke and drink.
Or people who cosleep.

Or formula feed over breastfeed.
Or drink sodas when pregnant.

Thats just assinine.

Im talking about those woman for example that are doing some very hardcore drugs when they are fully aware of being pregnant.

Sorry I had offered a different opinion. I thought the topic could really be discussed from both sides aside from just saying "those poor women" because there are some women who do bring their miscarriages on themselves and they mean to do so.

In the future I will refrain from posting on threads that my thoughts may differ.

but when you put something like that in law its BOUND to go to the extreme like the things we are saying. Also if they dont want the baby that much why do you think making it a law will change anything. It is their body to do as they see fit. They are not walking incubators and neither am I. Lawmakers getting into pregnancy and all that is what is keeping me from having my tubes tied because I am just a walking incubator to them. Even WHEN another baby CAN and most likely WILL KILL ME.

Its gone tooo far.

 

[TehNando]

"no human involvement whatsoever in the causation"

Waitaminute... So a miscarriage is not human?
Those filthy liars in school! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

 

[Bunny82]

Breeze, making it a law wont change anything aside from holding people accountable.

The problem is there is no way this can be fairly done and yes if passed it will go to the extreme and be a bad situation to those undeserving.

All I have ever meant was that if there was a way to hold accountable and responsible women who are intentionally practicing behaviors that result in miscarriages to be held liable for what they do I dont think that is so horrible an idea.

Ugh I said I would not reply on this thread anymore. Sorry.

I'm bowing out now and giving myself a time out from the board until I can stop being so sensitive sorry to disrupt the thread.

 

[Danefied]

Interesting read thank you Renee and something to think about. To a large extent I do agree with it but I would be lying if I did not say I would like to see something done to punish those who are guilty. I dont suppose there is anyway to really do that though so I guess it has little importance.

The only thing else I am going to say on this topic is I did not think by offering a different opinion I would need to be made to feel like a dumb ass.

Obviously I am not talking about people who are following doctors orders as your mom was when she was told to smoke and drink.
Or people who cosleep.

Or formula feed over breastfeed.
Or drink sodas when pregnant.

Thats just assinine.

Im talking about those woman for example that are doing some very hardcore drugs when they are fully aware of being pregnant.

Sorry I had offered a different opinion. I thought the topic could really be discussed from both sides aside from just saying "those poor women" because there are some women who do bring their miscarriages on themselves and they mean to do so.

In the future I will refrain from posting on threads that my thoughts may differ.

Sorry you were offended by my reply.
I was told that getting pregnant at 30 qualified my pregnancy as "high risk", so forgive me that I did not understand from your post exactly what you meant by "high risk" behaviors.

Lawmakers like to make things muddy too

FWIW, when I was at the regional hospital with a rare issue with one of my twins' umbilical cord, there was another woman with the same problem. Hers was caused by heroin use. She was also an inmate who showed up to the ultrasound room in shackles. I have decent insurance and it still took us 4 years to pay off those hospital bills. Guess who paid for the other mom's bills? Hint - it wasn't her.

 

[Romy]

Interesting read thank you Renee and something to think about. To a large extent I do agree with it but I would be lying if I did not say I would like to see something done to punish those who are guilty. I dont suppose there is anyway to really do that though so I guess it has little importance.

The only thing else I am going to say on this topic is I did not think by offering a different opinion I would need to be made to feel like a dumb ass.

Obviously I am not talking about people who are following doctors orders as your mom was when she was told to smoke and drink.
Or people who cosleep.

Or formula feed over breastfeed.
Or drink sodas when pregnant.

Thats just assinine.

Im talking about those woman for example that are doing some very hardcore drugs when they are fully aware of being pregnant.

Sorry I had offered a different opinion. I thought the topic could really be discussed from both sides aside from just saying "those poor women" because there are some women who do bring their miscarriages on themselves and they mean to do so.

In the future I will refrain from posting on threads that my thoughts may differ.

People who are doing hardcore drugs are breaking a totally different set of laws already though. Why would we need to pass more laws to hold them accountable if we can't even enforce the ones in place?

 

[Renee750il]

"The Womb Wars" There's a good title for a fiction piece . . . Hmmmmm . . . .

 

[-bogart-]

People who are doing hardcore drugs are breaking a totally different set of laws already though. Why would we need to pass more laws to hold them accountable if we can't even enforce the ones in place?

My thoughts on this! I think instead of trying to legislate every little thing , maybe enforce the ones we have now.

 

[darkchild16]

My thoughts on this! I think instead of trying to legislate every little thing , maybe enforce the ones we have now.

exactly.

 

[Renee750il]

It seems that as a society we are becoming increasingly polarized between the schools of Punish Everyone and Everyone's a Victim and Must Be Understood. Both sides are fueled by our obsession with everyone else's lives and choices. We must be investigator, accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner.

It feels like it's reaching critical mass and society as a whole is invested in micromanaging everyone's lives and lifestyles in order to eradicate the individual, the one who has to make choices for their own life, and live with those choices and jettison the concepts of personal responsibility and conscience in favor of a collective (un)conscious where no one is responsible and everyone is culpable.

Like Tim Wilson says, "it's a sorry world."

 

[release the hounds]

amen to that