Breeding and Profits

[IliamnasQuest]

This may be an interesting topic. I'm not bringing it up to create a heated discussion, so I hope things can remain "cool" .. *L*

I see people talking about how a good breeder should never make a profit on breeding - how they should at best break even. In all honesty, this doesn't make sense to me.

Let's say I decide to breed my dog. I have all the health tests done on my bitch (let's estimate $550, which is about what it will cost to finish the six tests I'm actually doing on my current bitch). I find an appropriate stud dog and pay a stud fee. I pay for the brucellosis tests, progesterone testing, etc. Since I would have my dog anyway, I can't really take into account the costs for regular feeding and showing, since I just plain enjoy that. But there would be an additional cost for increased food and maybe supplements, of course.

Let's assume she has a normal natural birth with no complications. The puppies thrive and are healthy. Let's also assume she has a litter of eight. I have costs for feeding puppies, vaccinating, general health exams. And then let's say I get the going rate for pups from health-tested parents of this breed - maybe $1200 per puppy. I keep one pup, so I sell seven. Seven times $1200 is $8400.

There's just no way that I can make the cost add up to $8400. Does that mean, to be a respectable breeder, I would have to take all the expenses, add them together, and then divide by seven and charge no more than that for the puppies even if the going rate is higher, and these are quality pups?

And what about the next litter? For the next litter you wouldn't have the additional costs of health tests on the bitch (those were figured into the cost for the first litter) as well as already having the whelping box. So if she were to have the same sized litter and everything went well, these pups would theoretically cost less.

Of course I know that there's always a likelihood of having the need for a c-section, or having a small litter, etc. Expenses have a way of happening. But I think it's completely possible for a responsible breeder to make money and to do it honestly and morally. Maybe it doesn't happen very often, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge that profit to someone who was doing everything right.

Now, if someone is popping out litter after litter, breeding the same bitch and stud together over and over, having huge litters and charging really high prices, failing to do all the proper health certification, etc. then I do have a problem with that. Numerous litters often means a lack of proper handling and socialization on the part of the breeder .. a person only has so much time, and logistically they can't put the time into too many puppies at once.

I just don't think someone should assume that a breeder is bad because they manage to make some sort of profit. If they're doing the right things - health, management, proving their dogs, proper handling of the pups, selling the pups for a non-inflated price - then more power to them if they manage a profit too.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[ravennr]

Aside from the costs you listed, I believe the breeder should put money into other things as well, even if they do just plain enjoy doing them. I admire a breeder who uses any extra money to put forth to rescue. I also have known breeders who keep separate bank accounts, so to speak, for their breeding plans and their dogs in general. I don't like to just them obviously pocketing the money, ever. That has always irked me even before learning more into the world of breeding.

But instead of just using money for things happening there and then, they should also be putting it to things that could happen, or things they know will happen in the future.

 

[showdawgz]

You also have to take into consideration training and titling the dog(s).

Regardless, all the money you "made" off the litter will go towards the rest of your dogs, that you have to support. JMO

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I don't have any problem with them pocketing the money, IF they're doing everything right. Why should anyone begrudge them the right to earn a bit of money by raising healthy, quality puppies? I think that the bad breeders have put such a disturbing light on things that it tarnishes the rights of the good breeders too. And that's not fair.

On the training and titling - for myself, I don't take them into account because those are things I've been doing for the past 18 years without EVER breeding. Those are expenses that would happen anyway for me. And most breeders don't put anything except conformation titles on their dogs, and training for that is pretty minimal.

Yes, the money you make off of puppies will go toward your other dogs, and if I were to breed my bitch there is not much likelihood that - on paper - I would show a profit if I take all my "dog expenses" into account. But if I only list the additional expenses that I would have over what I would have anyway, there just isn't that much more UNLESS something happens. And, of course, that's always the risk.

Breeding properly takes a lot of commitment, time and energy .. I just don't see good reason why a breeder shouldn't be allowed to make some profit for the time and effort put in.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[SisMorphine]

And as far as I know you are supposed to add in the costs of competitions if you are showing and/or working your dog as those titles do go into the reasons why your dog is acceptable to breed to.

The breeders that I respect most are the ones who keep a very closed circle and give most of their pups away to friends and family. They may sell one or two, but most are responsibly placed at no charge to places that the breeder know are going to work the puppies. You definitely don't break even when you breed once every 5 years and give them away. I've found a lot of working dog breeders to be like this. Conformation breeders not as much.

 

[Dekka]

In my breed, 600-800 a pup is a 'good' price to get. You can get a pet pup from some of the best JRT breeders for under 900. The litters are typically
small. Average about 3-4. Singletons are not unheard of.


Now I sell my pups for 700. Lets do some math... I plan to breed Dekka in a year or two. Not sure at this point who the dad will be. So lets leave the stud fee out of it.

CERF test done anually-50 each. So 200.

Other misc testing- 300

Cost of trialing. well the average day of agility sets me
back about 52.50 =gas. So say 75. so far that is... 600
and we still have a year or two to go. (this does not count
hotel rooms etc)

Then we have obed compitions and terrier
trials. 400

Lessons for the last year.* 600

Lets say we even forget the things like high quality food, and
regular vet care....

So we have 2100 dollars, without counting stud fee and the vet bills inherent with the litter. And things like the locator collars (600) to see if she will hunt. AND this is only to this point, I have just started trialing her. Costs will be much higher by the time I breed.

So she has a litter of 4 pups. lets say I sell them all (I will be keeping one) 4 X 700 = 2800...so you can see I do this because I love it. Not to make money.

Now there is a JRT breeder that breeds many many litters (4) a year. Yes she shows her dogs, but just conformation. There is no training fees, no seminars etc. There are only so many Terrier trials to enter (though she does go to the states to show) Now I am sure she makes money at it. Am I against it, no, but its not the way I do it.

 

[Fran27]

I have always wondered that myself

I find the reasoning a bit odd seeing that lots of people show without any intention of breeding, so I don't think those expenses are linked to the litter personally.

I think the idea is more that good breeders won't really make money in the end from breeding, as they spent a lot on their dogs already. But they probably do make money off the litter, even including food, vet care, and puppy packages.

 

[Dekka]

Fran..I wouldn't show all my dogs if I wasnt going to breed them. So it would be much cheaper.

And I didn't count lots of other stuff (as it was depressing me lol) like the purchase or breeding cost of the mom. (Dekka's litter was a $$ one, mom didn't have enough milk, I had to hand feed the litter. One pup failed to thrive and was in and out of the vet 5 times in her short 3 weeks, Rigby died..so that cost was never recouped-not that I would have done it anyother way)

Not saying they shouldn't. If I could get 1500 for a pup, then I might make money...if I bred ever year.

 

[Boemy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a reputable breeder who has shown their dogs, done all the tests, etc, making a profit off a litter.

I just think it's uncommon for a reputable breeder to make a profit. I imagine people with rarer breeds would be most likely to make a profit and people with more common breeds would be getting in red or barely breaking even.

 

[FoxyWench]

i agree that the cost of showing your dog in whatever trials should also be included in the cost.
which as we know bumps the price up quite a bit.

i do however thing that it also depends on what breed is involved...

lets take my chis for example, TINY itter size (usually 1-4 pups) and a HIGH occurance of c-sections, and since were not stupid, normal prices run 7-900 depending on puppy (none of this $1500 for a "rare tcup chi") on this litter with showing, vet costs ect, due to the high risk then NO theres NO profit to be had, i was lucky to JUST break even with vixieis litter due to the fact i didnt keep a single pup (yes my parents paid for Rosie!)

however a larger dog, who has a tendency for a larger litter size and are not prone to complications in the precnancy or delivery, especially a breed that you cna get higher asking price on the pups, then yes there is the posiblilty to make some small profit

 

[malndobe]

When deciding if a breeder is making a profit, the first thing people will argue about is what expenses are allowed to be figured into the cost of a litter. Do you treat it like a business, where any expense related to the business is added in? Ie food, vet bills, training, competition, etc. After all, competition = marketing for a breeder. Or do you say "they would do that anyway, so that doesn't count". And then you have the occasional breeder who breeds once every few years, because they have a single dog they feel is worth breeding, and you have breeders who are actually trying to create a bloodline, who are breeding more often. These breeders also have the expense of dogs who were initially purchased hoping they would mature into something breed worthy, who didn't. Can the breeder add into their expenses the cost of those dogs?

Regardless of what expenses you feel the breeder can deduct from their "profit", you also have to look at it long term. It's easy to say "X in expense, Y pups at Z dollars = this much profit" But that's assuming nothing goes wrong with that litter. What about the litter before that, or the litter after that, who got sick, required a lot of vet care, etc?

I usually avoid calculating my costs to be a breeder, it's way to depressing and every time I do it I start to seriously rethink the entire thing. However, with all the anti-breeder legislation going on, I sat down and calculated costs for last year, to help someone with an article they were putting together for AB1634. These are my expenses for the year. True, some of these I would have regardless of whether I ever bred another litter in my life. But I would say I'd have less than 20% of these expenses, since I wouldn't own nearly as many dogs as I do, and therefore wouldn't have nearly the food, vet, and training/trial bills I have.

For 2006 this was my total expenditure, with some slight rounding
Food Bill - 3000
Vet Bill - 7900
Dog Purchases - 5400
Training/trials -
Herding - 2500 (training fees and gas)
Protection sports - 3000+

I haven't even figured in the costs for flyball, obedience, agility, etc. And I'm already way over 20,000 for the year. And I know I'm low on my protection sport costs, since I spent over 1200 on travel to competitions, training costs 40.00 a session between gas, field fees and club dues, and I train 2-4 days a week. I spent over 400.00 a month on gas last year, and I only work 8 miles from my house. Some of this is high for a regular year, I don't purchase dogs every year, and last year was just a bad year for vet bills with a broken canine that required a root canal and cap, and a litter of pups that got Parvo

Now lets figure "income" from pup sales. I had 3 litters last year, but 1 was a litter with a co-owner. The parvo litter. Since they paid the bulk of the vet bills for the pups, I gave them most of the money from the litter. I gave away some pups to friends, and also stud dog owners. I took in a total of 5700 for the pups I sold.

Good thing I have my day job :lol-sign:

 

[showpug]

I was going to post about my recent experience breeding my bitch for this very reason. People are right when they say "there's no money in breeding dogs." That is IF you do it the right way. I am not saying the occasional large litter won't bring in some profit, but for the most part, I think a breeder would jump for joy if they just broken even...I know I will.

Here is my breakdown-

Initial pre-breeding exam, progesterone & vaginal cytology= $191.50

Exams, progesterones, vaginal cytologies, semen handling and shipping, ultrasound and surgical implant = $1436.66

Stud fee =$ 1000.00

Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy in a couple of weeks = $140.00

Elective c-section = $800

Litter supplies, vaccines etc. = $400.00

The above totals $3968.16

That doesn't take into consideration what I paid in health testing or show entries etc.

Now...could someone please tell me how I am going to make money doing this especially when pugs average anywhere from 2-4 pups in a litter and I am keeping one for myself? If you have any ideas then I would love to know, LOL!

 

[Fran27]

Thanks Showpug it's exactly what I wanted to see

 

[hbwright]

I read this on a site and thought it was interesting. I know there is a direct link somewhere but I can't find it. It is the article at the very bottom of this page.

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/breedingposts.htm

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Interesting .. thanks for all the opinions, it definitely gives us all something to think about!

Of course I'm looking at this in good part from my point of view. I compete with my dogs because I enjoy them and I enjoy being out around other dog people, so I would compete and title my dogs regardless of whether or not I was going to breed. After all, I've been competing since 1989, have more than 30 performance titles on my dogs (mostly obedience) and I have yet to breed a litter! I guess I expect that anyone who wants to breed also just plain enjoys having their dogs and would want to do a certain amount of competition just to be doing something with their dogs and with other dog people. So to me, that's an expense that would happen anyway. It's like people who have horses because they love horses will have a certain amount of expense they expect to put out for their hobby, regardless of whether or not they actually use the horses for any sort of monetary gain.

Feeding a dog happens anyway, too, other than the extra amounts or supplements you might give to a pregnant or lactating bitch, which is why I didn't figure in food costs in the actual breeding expenses. The costs I'm thinking of are those linked directly to the production of puppies: stud fees, health tests, vet costs, material costs, expenses on the puppies themselves.

If I go back and figure out all the money I've spent over the past 18 years .. thousands upon thousands of dollars in travel, motels, entry fees, seminars, etc. (including twice traveling by car from Alaska to the lower 48 for the Chow Nationals, three times flying down for shows/seminars) in addition to food costs, supplies, veterinary care - well, I'd have to sell a LOT of puppies to even break even! But since I would have done all of this anyhow, I guess I just can't see making it part of the breeding expenses.

Anyhow, I can't fault someone who is making a profit if they're providing all the proper health testing, breeding selectively, not over-breeding their bitches, not breeding so many puppies that they can't do hand's-on socializing and training from four weeks on, not making their dogs all live out in kennels because they have so many they can't keep them in the house. It's probably uncommon that someone who is doing it right will also make a profit, but if they DO then I'm certainly not going to put them down for it.

Unfortunately we don't hear of many breeders who are doing it right. Most cut corners so as to make profit and of course it's the dogs who suffer for it.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

OMG I can't even BEGIN to add up how much I have spent making my way to this litter. WELL over 10K, not counting my van to show dogs, etc.

I have no issue with selling well bred puppies for a good price, I don't care if someone makes profit as long as they are not cutting corners.

The way I have it figured, if I can breed 2 litters a year, with each one having 12 puppies in it, and selling 10 puppies for 1K each out of each of these litters, I should catch up in about 6 years if I have NO more expenses.

yeah right....

haha.

 

[sparks19]

So it seems that basically what it boils down to is WHAT you consider to be part of the "Cost". if you don't factor in how much that area of your house costs you.... or how much food will cost you.... or how much show titles cost you.... etc etc then you will be making more money (on paper) than someone who DOES factor in these things. That seems to be the big difference here..... other than litter sizes and costs of pups of course.

 

[showpug]

So it seems that basically what it boils down to is WHAT you consider to be part of the "Cost". if you don't factor in how much that area of your house costs you.... or how much food will cost you.... or how much show titles cost you.... etc etc then you will be making more money (on paper) than someone who DOES factor in these things. That seems to be the big difference here..... other than litter sizes and costs of pups of course.

Well, my breakdown is JUST the cost of this particular litter and there really isn't a chance at making a profit unless Alice were to surprise me with a giant litter. I didn't even consider adding in the cost of food, showing etc. because I would do those things regardless of if I were to breed or not.

I think the breeders that really have a chance at making a profit use their own stud dogs, breed naturally, don't progesterone test and breed many litters a year and their bitches free whelp.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

My showing activities are CERTAINLY a breeding expense, since I would be very unlikely to breed an untitled dog. I like to prove dogs, I like dog shows, and I like titles. And yes, it's very expensive. With the current cost of gasoline, and entries approaching 25+ per, it is easy to spend 4-5 hundred dollars on a show weekend. Of course with no guarantee of any success!

To be honest, I don't keep a close account of my expenses, because I am afraid I would be too horrified. :yikes:

 

[MaryAndDobes]

The costs I'm thinking of are those linked directly to the production of puppies: stud fees, health tests, vet costs, material costs, expenses on the puppies themselves.

The problem is that you're still not considering or adding a lot of costs directly related and you're also talking ideal situations where nothing goes wrong, and after 8 litters I can certainly say that everything rarely goes as it should.

First of all, you mentioned in your first post that one health tests the bitch before her first litter but for the second litter, you say there is no health testing. Since when??? CERF tests have to be redone annually. Thyroid tests have to be done every 12 - 18 months. I always run a CBC along with liver and kidney panel just prior to breeding any female to make sure she's well. You've got to test for brucellosis again. In my breed, cardiac testing is an annual event, both ultrasound and 24 hour ecg. Testing is not a one-time affair! And frankly, some of these tests go on for the lifetime of the bitch, and the responsible breeder is going to be keeping their puppy owners up to date on what is happening with her (and with the stud and littermates) so that they are aware what to be on the lookout for in the puppy they bought.

You've completely left out expenses related to getting the bitch to the stud dog, which might include flights or roadtrips/hotel expenses. I just spent a week in Illinois (I'm in Ontario) to breed a bitch. Nearly $200 in gas expenses, over $500 in hotel expense, over $200 in wireless calls home (I know this doesn't directly relate to the puppies but I wouldn't have had a $200 cell bill had I been at home). Fast food meals twice a day - again, I would have had to pay to eat at home by buying groceries but obviously eating at home is cheaper than having to go out twice a day. What about the time lost off work??

There are tons of things you're not considering that may or may not effect certain breeders. For instance, I have to pay $1.25 for every bag of garbage I set out. Do you have any idea of how many bags of garbage are produced weekly when one has puppies??? Heat/electricity costs rise when one has puppies because you have to keep them warm. The washing machine and dryer runs all day keeping them clean. Extra detergent, extra bleach, extra mopheads, extra towels, extra blankets, extra garbage bags, extra paper towels, etc.

What about advertising? Puppy packages? Photos? Long distance calls? Registrations? And probably the most controversial thing of all -- the breeder's time? I take the first 2 weeks off work completely. My husband usually takes the first week off. We spell each other in the whelping room - one of us is almost always there as we have a docked breed and we are diligent in making sure mom is not taking out tail stitches for a week. All the time that is spent socializing the puppies ... all the time that is spent talking with / screening puppy owners ... more time spent guiding them later ... keeping in touch with them throughout the years ... If time were included as an actual expense, no one could afford a puppy.

Anyway, I wrote an article about expenses from a Canadian perspective towards Dobermans, my breed. It's here
http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/Cost.htm
As you can see, I left out the cost of showing/titling and concentrated on the other stuff.

And ... what about situations where the bitch is co-owned and puppies have to be surrendered to her breeder? That lessens what you receive in compensation. This is a fairly common situation.

What about the times that a breeder takes back a dog later and reimburses families for returning it? The dog is older now and the breeder has no hope of rehoming it at a normal puppy price. I had the above 2 situations combined! The co-owner / breeder of the bitch sold two of the puppies from my first litter and when the owners couldn't keep them, it was me who stepped up and took them back and I had never received a dime for them! I had to pay airfare *and* a purchase price to get the one back safely and then I had neutering costs on both of them before rehoming.

My 5th litter - we literally spent $5400 in simply health testing the bitch prior to breeding, in direct breeding expenses and we had one puppy. The same thing happened a year later only expenses were minus the stud fee as it was a return visit. Again, we had one puppy but SHE DIED. You have a couple of litters like that and they leave you so far in the hole, you never come out.