Breeding and Profits

[malndobe]

none of us are in the business of selling dogs and very rarely do we do so.

I thought you didn't sell dogs at all, but only gave them away? Now you are saying you do on occasion sell dogs?

Then maybe taking on another legitimate job would ease the financial burden? Or better yet, don't take on activities and hobbies you cannot afford.

I shouldn't have to pay someone for them to feed their own dogs and travel to shows with them. That's their choice, not mine.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I see no reason why someone should be expected to pay all the costs of a litter, just so other people can have a dog for free. I have no problems giving a pup for free to certain people, and I see nothing wrong with selling pups to others. And I don't think either of these is any indication of whether a breeder is responsible or not.

As far as legitimate jobs, the vast majority of responsible breeders I know already have a legitimate job. That's how they can afford to pay for their dogs, because they sure aren't doing it from puppy sales.

 

[MelissaCato]

but most breeders do breed with the intent of keeping 1-2 pups from each litter as their next additions, but not all puppies are quite the quality.

Interesting. Sounds like a puppymill in the making. :yikes:

 

[animalcraker]

Interesting. Sounds like a puppymill in the making. :yikes:

Huh??? how does a breeder keeping 1-2 pups for themselves and placing the pet quality pups turn into a puppymill in the making? please explain.

 

[FoxyWench]

i was going to say how does that mean a puppy mill in the making, breeders breed to better their breed, and to better theri own bloodlines, responsible breeders breed for themselves, the goal being to find the next champion in the litter to strangthen their lines and in turn the breed. Since a RESPONSIBLE breeder also only breeds their females every other heat at most no younger then 2 yrs old AND retire them at 6...how can keeping back your next hopefull be contributing to turing said breeder into a puppymills, especially since mills breed their dogs on mass wiht no care for their breeding dogs health in order to produce mass quantite sof puppies to SELL for profit. they only keep ones that wont sell because hey it can make em more money pumping out more subpar dogs, breeders however keep back SHOW potential pups and in one way or another rehome those that are not quite show potential to pet homes on a spay neuter contract, this keeps the best examples in the lines. If there are multiple prospects in a litter most repuatable breeders have wating lists for the next show potential pups from other responsible breeders looking to add to their lines.

this is also why MOST responsible breeders do NOT breed every year or have a set litter schedual, because most ONLY breed when there looking for a puppy themselves, and this is usually NOT every year.

 

[MelissaCato]

Huh??? how does a breeder keeping 1-2 pups for themselves and placing the pet quality pups turn into a puppymill in the making? please explain.

If they keep 1-2 puppies per litter it all adds up.

Think yearly.

You go from a bitch and 1-2 puppies per litter.

Or Stud, bitch and 1-2 puppies per litter. Given only one (1) pair of dogs in the home.

Most breeders have more than one bitch ...

...you do the math.

It's easy to see who profits and who doesn't.

The guess is how long they keep "ethical" to breeding till neglect sets in.

This is another reason dogs are in shelters.

Personally, I like these breeders outcasts in a way .. because they always find the best of homes after the shelter and in a short while. The dogs that are mixed have a longer uncertain stay.

I would think a breeder would test the ability or looks of each dog in the litter @ a decent age before "sold". Actually, the breeder should have more than birthrights and 8 weeks to come to this conclusion of elimination. But, that's just me. Spay/Neuter should be done by the breeder before any sale (?). I spend too much time and money on shelters to think otherwise.

 

[fillyone]

I really don't get this responsible breeders only breed for themselves thing.

So a GSD breeder who has a litter of 8 where all 8 go to Schutzhund homes, were all 8 at 18 months old are excelling at Schutzhund, where all 8 have OFA prelimed at good or better hips and normal elbows is NOT a responsible breeder? Give me a break!!

And I have another question. If all responsible breeders only breed "to better the breed" then how does that happen if they only breed for themselves? Seems that having an excellent litter and selling those pups to excellent homes who have the same commitments and dreams as the breeder is the way to "better the breed" not to keep all the pups yourself.

 

[showpug]

I really don't get this responsible breeders only breed for themselves thing.

So a GSD breeder who has a litter of 8 where all 8 go to Schutzhund homes, were all 8 at 18 months old are excelling at Schutzhund, where all 8 have OFA prelimed at good or better hips and normal elbows is NOT a responsible breeder? Give me a break!!

And I have another question. If all responsible breeders only breed "to better the breed" then how does that happen if they only breed for themselves? Seems that having an excellent litter and selling those pups to excellent homes who have the same commitments and dreams as the breeder is the way to "better the breed" not to keep all the pups yourself.

Again, I think it's important that breeders are viewed on an individual basis. With that said, when a breeder breeds for themselves, they are breeding for their own goals, not just for the ability to sell a litter of puppies. When an ethical breeder plans a litter, it's usually to get their next dog that they are going to compete with etc. Most of the time, a breeder can't keep the whole litter, so the rest are placed.

 

[FoxyWench]

thank you showpug you explained that better than i could.

 

[animalcraker]

If they keep 1-2 puppies per litter it all adds up.

Think yearly.

You go from a bitch and 1-2 puppies per litter.

Or Stud, bitch and 1-2 puppies per litter. Given only one (1) pair of dogs in the home.

Most breeders have more than one bitch ...

...you do the math.

It's easy to see who profits and who doesn't.

The guess is how long they keep "ethical" to breeding till neglect sets in.

This is another reason dogs are in shelters.

Personally, I like these breeders outcasts in a way .. because they always find the best of homes after the shelter and in a short while. The dogs that are mixed have a longer uncertain stay.

I would think a breeder would test the ability or looks of each dog in the litter @ a decent age before "sold". Actually, the breeder should have more than birthrights and 8 weeks to come to this conclusion of elimination. But, that's just me. Spay/Neuter should be done by the breeder before any sale (?). I spend too much time and money on shelters to think otherwise.

Sooo... To sum this up, your basically saying that every reputable breeder will enevitably become a puppy miller, correct?

 

[SisMorphine]

Wow this thread has gotten . . . interesting?

As far as my views on responsible breeders:

I like to see a breeder who breeds for themselves and a pretty tight circle. I feel that if more breeders did this you would have less litters each year, and less dogs falling into undesirable hands.

Now this doesn't seem fair to people outside of the circle, but here's the deal: If you truly want a dog you get yourself INTO the circle. You go to shows, competitions, etc. You start talking to breeders and owners that you admire, learn from them, etc. That way when someone they know has a litter, they can recommend you. Thus, you become part of the circle.

I know it's slightly more effort than slapping down $1800 and taking your pup home, but personally I think it's a more personal way to go about it. It shows that you truly are interested in these dogs, and proves to the breeder that you will be a good home.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

SIS, that is some of the best advice I have ever seen given. I tell people constantly....

TAKE THE TIME TO GET TO KNOW SOME PEOPLE IN THE BREED YOU WANT. Join mailing lists. Go to shows. Find the breed specific bulletin boards, and join. Just like this board, when you spend some time on mailing lists and boards, you sort of get to "know" people. Some people you will really like, and admire their principles and procedures. Others, maybe not so much. Some you might love their dogs but have a personality conflict with.

But the very best thing is to get to KNOW people first, and then decide, from the ones you like, admire, and respect, which dogs you like the best, and get on that waiting list.

 

[MelissaCato]

Sooo... To sum this up, your basically saying that every reputable breeder will enevitably become a puppy miller, correct?

Well, more like every breeder has that potential, yes.
Wouldn't you think? They have to start somewhere's you know. I'm sure puppymills and pimps didn't just go out one day and buy 10 dogs to start.

Good advise RR. :hail:

 

[FoxyWench]

actually most true millers are amish farmers, they were raised the way to belive that ALL animals have their job and their dogs, if not used for jobs around the farms are used for breeding...
Because of this most actually DO go out and buy 10 dogs at a time, mostly from other millers at large scale auctions!

most BYB's get their start when they decide their pet fluffy shoudl have a litter...they have no issues, fluffy has 6 puppies and they sell em...make some money and think, hey that was easy and go get a couple more to repeat...

Sis you said that PERFECTLY!

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Well, more like every breeder has that potential, yes.
Wouldn't you think? They have to start somewhere's you know. I'm sure puppymills and pimps didn't just go out one day and buy 10 dogs to start.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I have seen written on a board recently.

People who will mill and pimp dogs rarely have the potential to be caring responsible breeders. Persons who are caring responsible breeders take the time to LEARN and RESEARCH before they start. The vast majority of responsible breeders would NEVER mill puppies, or sell to someone who would make poor breeding decisions. Responsible breeders take steps to make sure they can keep track of puppies they produce, screen new owners carefully, and would repossess any animal bred improperly or indiscriminately.

People decide to start farming dogs all the time, and go out and buy multiple breeding bitches and a stud dog. You read the boards, you should know that.

Do not come on here and insult all the responsible breeders by saying they are a couple bitches away from becoming millers.

That is not only ridiculous, it's offensive.

 

[malndobe]

What are the lines on your Malinois pup Melissa?

I think you would be surprised at just how many Malinois breeders in Europe would be considered puppymills by your standards.

 

[Miakoda]

I thought you didn't sell dogs at all, but only gave them away? Now you are saying you do on occasion sell dogs?

I have never sold a dog. My brothers & good friend, who are all in this with me, have sold under 10 dogs put together. And I know for a fact that 4 of those "sold" dogs were sold for the price of shipping and a crate. I apologize for the confusion.

I like to see a breeder who breeds for themselves and a pretty tight circle. I feel that if more breeders did this you would have less litters each year, and less dogs falling into undesirable hands.

Now this doesn't seem fair to people outside of the circle, but here's the deal: If you truly want a dog you get yourself INTO the circle. You go to shows, competitions, etc. You start talking to breeders and owners that you admire, learn from them, etc. That way when someone they know has a litter, they can recommend you. Thus, you become part of the circle.

THANK YOU for saying what I'm been trying to say. I knew I could count on you.

 

[MelissaCato]

What are the lines on your Malinois pup Melissa?

I think you would be surprised at just how many Malinois breeders in Europe would be considered puppymills by your standards.

Granduer is the best in Belgium Working Breeding IMO. Through experience and reading these boards I know better than to post her parents. I waited 3 years for her.

RR, if what you say is true and I'm wrong .. then you should be ashamed of yourself for bashing my Falcon and his breeder. She had a pair of crested's and you called my falcon a (scrap) mill dog till the day he died.

And I might add .. the owner of the stray dog was a board member of BBC. Interesting how small this world is isn't it? Don't worry though, I slapped it to her and so did 4 other neighbors who's livestock were killed.

Let's learn from those days, I know I did.

 

[MelissaCato]

actually most true millers are amish farmers

.. I think to say that is very nieve.

 

[fillyone]

Wow this thread has gotten . . . interesting?

As far as my views on responsible breeders:

I like to see a breeder who breeds for themselves and a pretty tight circle. I feel that if more breeders did this you would have less litters each year, and less dogs falling into undesirable hands.

Now this doesn't seem fair to people outside of the circle, but here's the deal: If you truly want a dog you get yourself INTO the circle. You go to shows, competitions, etc. You start talking to breeders and owners that you admire, learn from them, etc. That way when someone they know has a litter, they can recommend you. Thus, you become part of the circle.

I know it's slightly more effort than slapping down $1800 and taking your pup home, but personally I think it's a more personal way to go about it. It shows that you truly are interested in these dogs, and proves to the breeder that you will be a good home.

And what if the breeder I am really interested in is across the US from me?

Oh wait, I'm NEVER EVER supposed to buy a dog using the internet. Well crap that means I have way fewer choices of working line GSD breeders, since it would be impossible for me to get INTO a circle of folks with fabulous Schutzhund dogs on the other side of the US.

Sorry I don't buy into it just like I don't buy into the fact that great breeders can't sell their pups and just like I don't buy into never ever buying a dog using the internet.

 

[MelissaCato]

Well filly, we can always look at it this way. Forget that tight circle. That "pretty tight circle" and the internet must be a big thing to reputables, they even webcam birthing from dogs that have degraded elbows.

:yikes: opcorn: