Breeding and Profits

[IliamnasQuest]

Yikes, no need to get so worked up! I gave a hypothetical example with a certain number of costs, nowhere did I say that it wouldn't cost MORE .. *L* .. don't get your knickers in a knot, as they say! You make it sound like you don't enjoy it at all.

The POINT of all of this is that IF a breeder managed to turn a profit AND they were doing all the "right" things, I don't see that it's wrong.

Melanie and the gang

 

[MaryAndDobes]

I'm not sure why you assume my "knickers are in a knot." I was just replying to your post, that's all.

There really are a lot of things about breeding that I don't enjoy, to be honest. And of course there are some things that I enjoy immensely. To me, it is just a simple fact that it is a very costly endeavour to do it right and to do it well. It's probably something most would never grasp until / unless they did it.

When you speak in "ideals", it is rarely something that happens. Murphy's Law is definitely a big part of breeding. *If*, as you say, a breeder did manage to turn a profit on one litter, chances are there were a boatload of losses before that one and there will be after if you do it for any length of time.

Your premise also relies on every puppy staying in its home for its lifetime with no need for a breeder to step up. We constantly see statistics saying that 50% or less of puppies manage to stay in their original home. Now, personally, I think that the percentage is higher for responsible breeders who screen well, but as breeders, we are always aware that even though the litter may be gone and you think your expenses may be over, they very well may not be. If a puppy has to come back, there are going to be more expenses for the breeder. If a puppy develops a problem, there may be more expenses for the breeder. Honouring guarantees later may be something else that costs the breeder, if you need to provide a replacement puppy, for eg.

 

[fillyone]

....The POINT of all of this is that IF a breeder managed to turn a profit AND they were doing all the "right" things, I don't see that it's wrong.

Melanie and the gang

Hey Melanie I know what you're saying and I agree.

Don't do it for the money but if you do make a bit here and there fabulous.
Ok, well that's what I'm saying and said in another post.


I think between that and the fact that I admitted to feeding kibble and raw all at the same time in the same bowl now makes me invisible on this board.

 

[bubbatd]

In my 40 plus years of breeding , I may have broken even . My interest was in my line I was proud of and very selective breeding . Profit was never in my mind ... only the best pups to my ablity and and the best homes . From my 1st litter , and profit was put into a puppy fund . This bought books for new owners , but more important tests on all dogs to be bred . In the beginning , testing wasn't that important .... when it was , I paid out . So whether you're a small breeder ( as I was ) or a big breeder with top show dogs .... there's not much profit . Only in Puppy Mills and BYB's where profits go into more pups and more profits . I think my last balance of my puppy account went to my Bubba's cremation . My heart dog was gone ... my Kennel name was over . Thank you , to all my Hawthorn Hill's dogs for making me what I am today .....

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Hey Melanie I know what you're saying and I agree.

Don't do it for the money but if you do make a bit here and there fabulous.
Ok, well that's what I'm saying and said in another post.


I think between that and the fact that I admitted to feeding kibble and raw all at the same time in the same bowl now makes me invisible on this board.

Thank you, Barb, for actually understanding the point I was making! *LOL* I was in DEFENSE of breeders, not attacking them, although you wouldn't know it by some of the responses.

I've heard that some people think it's wrong to mix kibble and raw in the same meal, but I did it for years and my dogs thrived. We just cut back the dog food that my Mom's 12 year old shepherd gets and we now mix raw hamburger with the dog food he still gets and he looks better now than he has in a LONG time. And he was eating expensive dog food! My nearly 16 year old chow ate mixed raw/kibble for several years. Sure hasn't affected her badly either.

Maybe there ARE dogs that have problems with it, but some dogs have problems with raw and some dogs have problems with kibble too. I think it's an individual thing, not a "set in stone" concept on the mixing of foods.

I don't find you invisible in the least! In fact, I have found you to be very reasonable, level-headed person in this hothouse of extremes .. *LOL* .. there's a middle-ground to most things!

Melanie and the gang

 

[Psyfalcon]

The above totals $3968.16

Now...could someone please tell me how I am going to make money doing this especially when pugs average anywhere from 2-4 pups in a litter and I am keeping one for myself? If you have any ideas then I would love to know, LOL!

Not with a Pug i guess!

There are some corners you can cut though... cheap hotel rooms, drive an old fuel efficient car and live in an area with more shows/ competitions closer to where you live!

 

[RD]

I actually see your point and in some breeds, I can't help but wonder HOW people don't make some sort of profit on their litters. I was looking into another breed last year and pet puppies cost around $2000 and up from reputable breeders. Show prospects could go up to $5000. With anywhere from 5 to 10 puppies in a litter, that's a fair bit of money. I understand fully that breeding is a very costly venture, but I certainly think sometimes a profit is made, even if the breeder does things ethically. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[FoxyWench]

i dont see anythign wrong with making some profit under the right circumstances IF everythings being done properly and no corners are being cut in terms of care ect.

but im terms of the kind of profit, i see good breeders possibly making a SMALL profit if any...

if your making enough of a profit from breeding to not only run your kennel but to pay your house bills, buy you nice fancy things ect, thats when that line is crossed.

 

[Miakoda]

I must be in the minority in my thinking (if not the only one on this forum).

In my opinion, one isn't breeding to "bless others" with the chance of owning their dogs. I will speak from my own experience first. We've had 4 litters in 10 years. We breed only when we need new dogs for ourselves to hunt with and show. And then it's usually a year's worth of thought and input that goes into a breeding. After that, we try to keep all the pups. If we cannot, we will place them, not sell them, but place them with people that we know and trust 100% to raise the dog properly and work the dog as well. We keep almost daily contact with those very very very few. Why do we do things this way? Because if you sell all your dogs, how do you know the breeding was successful? If you can't be there, you have absolutely no idea and once a dog is out of your hands, you have no control any longer.

I don't breed for other people. I don't really give a hoot if they ever own one of my dogs. My goal is to improve upon the breed by improving upon my own dogs. Not to fill the market with "quality" dogs. The puppy market is the last place I want to be.

To continue, once a breeding is planned, I am the one responsible for all financial responsibility involved with the breeding because it was MY choice. No one made me do it therefore I don't expect anyone else to pay for it. The price of the dogs, the price of working and showing those dogs, testing those dogs, possible stud fee, vet care, puppy care, nutrition, etc. is all on me again because it was my decision. I cannot in good conscience ask someone else to foot the bill for me to show and test my dogs. IMO it's not much more than wanting other people to pay you for a whole lot of nothing as it should be a hobby....a passion, not a stinking business. And I have a real job that pays for my dogs and all that I choose to do with them.

When I have a litter, if I cannot keep all the pups, I will give them to people that meet the qualifications and standards that I have. I bred the dogs for me, not for them and not for anyone else so therefore I foot the bill.

Yes I've paid for a dog here or there, but the majority of my dogs are farmed out to me or given to me in good graces....and I'm talking about top notch quality dogs.

To make a long story short, if you are breeding for anyone other than yourself or if you are breeding just to sell dogs then you are a puppy peddler. Plain and simple.

 

[fillyone]

To make a long story short, if you are breeding for anyone other than yourself or if you are breeding just to sell dogs then you are a puppy peddler. Plain and simple.

Wow, I'm so glad that not everyone thinks that way. How in the hell would I get my dog(s) if they did?

 

[FoxyWench]

in some ways i agree, when i breed i breed in hopes of getting the next champion...unfortunatly however not all puppies from every litter are show prospects, a good breeder DOES breed for themselves and the general public gets those that are not quite there, these are sold on a spay/neuter contract as pets.

so those that breed because they want to breed and sell all the pups YES these are puppy peddlars, but most breeders do breed with the intent of keeping 1-2 pups from each litter as their next additions, but not all puppies are quite the quality.

 

[fillyone]

in some ways i agree, when i breed i breed in hopes of getting the next champion...unfortunatly however not all puppies from every litter are show prospects, a good breeder DOES breed for themselves and the general public gets those that are not quite there, these are sold on a spay/neuter contract as pets.

so those that breed because they want to breed and sell all the pups YES these are puppy peddlars, but most breeders do breed with the intent of keeping 1-2 pups from each litter as their next additions, but not all puppies are quite the quality.

So if you had a litter that was incredibly uniform, let's say 3 pups with 2 that could be champions you wouldn't sell one to someone that was looking to show?

I'd hate to think that the great working line GSD breeders would only breed for their own dogs, I'd never have a chance at a Schutzhund dog!

 

[MafiaPrincess]

I got a show prospect. Breeder wasn't looking for a male out of that litter. She kept the 2 female prospects for herself. Petted out the 2 pets..

She bred for her to improve her lines. Not for other people.

 

[FoxyWench]

oh no, if i had an extrodinary litter in which there were a couple of great prospects i would be willing to offer other prospects to others after theyve proved worthyness lol.
it would be insane for a breeder to keep EVERY one...
but first and foremost i breed for me with the hopes of keeping at least one from each litter, and because of that i only breed very occasionally when im looking to add to my lines.

 

[Miakoda]

So if you had a litter that was incredibly uniform, let's say 3 pups with 2 that could be champions you wouldn't sell one to someone that was looking to show?

I'd hate to think that the great working line GSD breeders would only breed for their own dogs, I'd never have a chance at a Schutzhund dog!

I think it's great for these people to get a few dogs out there in the right hands (those who will raise the dog properly and work the dog as it should be). However, if these people were truly doing things for the dogs and the breed, the wouldn't have a problem with simple placement versus selling for profit.

Like I stated, I didn't get into the dogs to end up having people pay my expenses for me. I assume all financial responsibility and if that means I end up with some big monetary "losses", then so be it because the gain in the dog world is worth it.

And to answer the first part of you question, probably not as I bred the litter for myself not for others. If someone really wants a dog from me, then they can and will wait until I've got a large enough litter, possibly of a repeat breeding, to where I can let a few dogs go. I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't breed for what other people necessarily want. If that were the case, I'd slip right into the tragic downfall of the APBT as we are seeing it today.

 

[malndobe]

Like I stated, I didn't get into the dogs to end up having people pay my expenses for me. I assume all financial responsibility and if that means I end up with some big monetary "losses", then so be it because the gain in the dog world is worth it.

What gain? You said you keep all the dogs for yourself, or farm a few out to friends. I see personal gain for yourself (nothing wrong with that), but how does the dog world gain from these dogs?

 

[malndobe]

I think it's great for these people to get a few dogs out there in the right hands (those who will raise the dog properly and work the dog as it should be). However, if these people were truly doing things for the dogs and the breed, the wouldn't have a problem with simple placement versus selling for profit.

I disagree. Breeding to improve the dogs and the breed, and selling pups, are not mutually exclusive. If every breeder was expected to give away all pups to be considered responsible, you'd see a couple of things happen. A lot of breeders would no longer be breeding. Breeders who are currently making a solid contribution to their breed. They'd be unable to afford it. And a lot more puppymill dogs and BYB dogs would be produced to fill the gaps.

 

[Miakoda]

What gain? You said you keep all the dogs for yourself, or farm a few out to friends. I see personal gain for yourself (nothing wrong with that), but how does the dog world gain from these dogs?

I have 3 brothers involved in the dogs with me as well along with 1 good friend as it's no possible for me to keep 40+ dogs nor would I do so even if it was possible. The gain is that we do stud dogs out, but only those that we know will produce will quality dogs and we only stud out to females that have exceeded all expectations. My brothers tend to place more dogs than I do (like 3-4 out of a large litter), but none of us are in the business of selling dogs and very rarely do we do so.

We have great pride in our dogs and to me it's an honor that someone would want to own, raise, and work a dog from us. That's why I have no issues with giving them the dog (however, I mean people that I know and trust here).

I'm not bashing anyone, I just don't see a reason to make people pay someone for something that they alone chose to do. I'm not a breeder and owner. I'm an owner, fancier, and lover who will breed a litter every few years or so.

 

[Miakoda]

I disagree. Breeding to improve the dogs and the breed, and selling pups, are not mutually exclusive. If every breeder was expected to give away all pups to be considered responsible, you'd see a couple of things happen. A lot of breeders would no longer be breeding. Breeders who are currently making a solid contribution to their breed. They'd be unable to afford it. And a lot more puppymill dogs and BYB dogs would be produced to fill the gaps.

Then maybe taking on another legitimate job would ease the financial burden? Or better yet, don't take on activities and hobbies you cannot afford.

I shouldn't have to pay someone for them to feed their own dogs and travel to shows with them. That's their choice, not mine.

 

[fillyone]

The gain is that we do stud dogs out,

Do you charge a stud fee?