E collar i want to buy? is this ok
- Thread starter hedwig
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He's gone. I think you guys nailed it on who he really is. Either way he was obviously trolling. 
You know what I find interesting? That some trainers use 'all positive' methods on 100% of the dogs they work with (100s or 1000s) and never have a problem or have to resort to 'other' methods. Yet there are trainers who swear that all positive doesn't work on all dogs. Seems to me that it's more a lack of creativity by some trainers if they have to resort to other methods.
And I'm not judging. Really. If a method works and that's all there is available and it helps keep a dog happy and safe then maybe that's the best in that situation. I'm no trainer!
BUT I bet there is always an all-positive trainer out there that can find a way to make it work for the same dog. If the effort was put in. I think that all other resources should be exhausted before shying away from positive training. Just my 2¢.
You know what I find interesting? That some trainers use 'all positive' methods on 100% of the dogs they work with (100s or 1000s) and never have a problem or have to resort to 'other' methods. Yet there are trainers who swear that all positive doesn't work on all dogs. Seems to me that it's more a lack of creativity by some trainers if they have to resort to other methods.
And I'm not judging. Really. If a method works and that's all there is available and it helps keep a dog happy and safe then maybe that's the best in that situation. I'm no trainer!
BUT I bet there is always an all-positive trainer out there that can find a way to make it work for the same dog. If the effort was put in. I think that all other resources should be exhausted before shying away from positive training. Just my 2¢.
Hedwig, my advice for you is to start all over training the recall with a different word. There are some fantastic posts that go into great detail, by Doberluv, Dr2little, and Sam.
It will take more work, but it will be well worth it when your dog is coming all the time, ever time. If you need, I will dig up those threads for you.
It will take more work, but it will be well worth it when your dog is coming all the time, ever time.
If you need, I will dig up those threads for you.
set yourself up for success..start back at square one. Use a hallway, that is closed off at one end. Sit stay back up come. Take it to the garage..again, you blocking the outside world. If you think he is going to dodge past you, use a line. Sit stay down come. THen go to the yard, line if necessary. SIt down stay come. Incredible praise. Not too many words but lots of love. ONe million walks around the block with sit down heel...all business..work in sit everytime a car comes...in hopes that it might make them listen for cars.
Do that day in and day out. EVery day without fail. NEver give a command you do not inforce...make sure they are having 50 percent of the fun AND ALWAYS leave them wanting more. More you.. more of your time. Keep the walks brisk paced at first just for that reason. Make a reward for sit down and stay a quick little run oh boy. Do not yell, hit, or hurt your animal IN ANY WAY and maybe just maybe you will get his respect. And once you have that, you have everything a good dog can bring you. THere is no reason except lack of training that a dog doesnt' reach his full potential. Most people just do not want to work that hard and because of it, their dogs fail in their eyes. It is just a **** shame. I worked as a trainer for a kennel that raised hunting dogs. Labradors and golden retrievers. OUr dogs by the age of two had to walk OF LEASH to line. WHere they had to sit while guns went off birds flew and Heaven cracked open the doors and beckoned them. THey had to SIT STEADY until the judge called dog. THEY HAD TO SIT STEADY BY AGE 2 until you leaned down and said BACK quietly in their ear. THey could run half across the field after the fallen bird and sit on a dime when the whistle blew facing not the bird but the HANDLER and take directions. LEft right or back. THey had to not run the bank which is the easiest and fastest way for a dog to reach a bird in the water, they had to hit the water no matter how cold because we asked them to. I know what i am talking about. By age 12 i started obedience with the puppies and i worked there until my boss's alzhiemers took his mind and the kennel was closed 20 years later. He held national championship 1 and 2 with two dogs brother and sister. Nip and tuck. He was the best trainer i have ever known and some people have even gathered info on him to write a book. I know all his training methods by heart. THAT IS WHY I KNOW WHAT A GOOD BIRD DOG CAN DO. WIthout prongs, without hot collars without choke chains. Even for no treats. THey do it out of love.
I have to add this. You could tell who used hot methods of training, those that made their dog do this out of fear. THose dogs cowered in front of their owners. They ran through the field but with their tails straight out, not flagging with joy that they found the fall. THey crawled out of the water and it broke my heart each and everytime. IT so does not have to be that way.
Do that day in and day out. EVery day without fail. NEver give a command you do not inforce...make sure they are having 50 percent of the fun AND ALWAYS leave them wanting more. More you.. more of your time. Keep the walks brisk paced at first just for that reason. Make a reward for sit down and stay a quick little run oh boy. Do not yell, hit, or hurt your animal IN ANY WAY and maybe just maybe you will get his respect. And once you have that, you have everything a good dog can bring you. THere is no reason except lack of training that a dog doesnt' reach his full potential. Most people just do not want to work that hard and because of it, their dogs fail in their eyes. It is just a **** shame. I worked as a trainer for a kennel that raised hunting dogs. Labradors and golden retrievers. OUr dogs by the age of two had to walk OF LEASH to line. WHere they had to sit while guns went off birds flew and Heaven cracked open the doors and beckoned them. THey had to SIT STEADY until the judge called dog. THEY HAD TO SIT STEADY BY AGE 2 until you leaned down and said BACK quietly in their ear. THey could run half across the field after the fallen bird and sit on a dime when the whistle blew facing not the bird but the HANDLER and take directions. LEft right or back. THey had to not run the bank which is the easiest and fastest way for a dog to reach a bird in the water, they had to hit the water no matter how cold because we asked them to. I know what i am talking about. By age 12 i started obedience with the puppies and i worked there until my boss's alzhiemers took his mind and the kennel was closed 20 years later. He held national championship 1 and 2 with two dogs brother and sister. Nip and tuck. He was the best trainer i have ever known and some people have even gathered info on him to write a book. I know all his training methods by heart. THAT IS WHY I KNOW WHAT A GOOD BIRD DOG CAN DO. WIthout prongs, without hot collars without choke chains. Even for no treats. THey do it out of love.
I have to add this. You could tell who used hot methods of training, those that made their dog do this out of fear. THose dogs cowered in front of their owners. They ran through the field but with their tails straight out, not flagging with joy that they found the fall. THey crawled out of the water and it broke my heart each and everytime. IT so does not have to be that way.
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hedwig, again find a good trainer in your area to help you with your recalls. Someone referanced Leerberg and Koehler as sources for training information. Please ignore those, they're known in the industry as being some the most "old school', harsh and controversial training methods used, to date. Good luck!
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Just a few comments.
I agree that Leerburg and Koehler are not good resources. Use of the e-collar as a purely positive punishment, as a high level "zap", is a huge mistake in most circumstances. If a person is going to use a tool like an e-collar, they need to ALWAYS keep in mind what they are using and not EVER take it lightly. I certainly don't encourage people to run out and buy one.
There ARE levels on the collar that are merely a tingle - much like what you would feel with the TENS units that use electrical stimulation to help alleviate arthritis pain. And there are levels on the collars that are quite painful. I'm not going to pretend that a collar is pleasant in any way. But it also doesn't have to be really painful. "Tapping" is a way to describe the sensation - if you take the first two fingers of one hand and tap them on the back of the other hand you will get an idea of how it feels. Vary the intensity of the tapping and you can change it from a slight sensation to something very uncomfortable. The proper use is NOT at a level that creates a yelp or other pain reaction.
I don't use an e-collar as a shortcut. In my case, it was after nearly a year and a half of consistent training using positive methods. It was a matter of "keep the dog on leash forever" or "let her run and play and have a good time". I know that many will say "keep her on leash" - but none of you know my dog nor do you know what her needs are. Exercise is vitally important to this dog. The collar gives her freedom and safety that she would otherwise not have.
As far as the "would you put a shock collar on a child" question - in all honesty, that's a pretty ludicrous question. I wouldn't put a collar and leash on a child at all. I also wouldn't have my dog sit at the dinner table and ask "please pass the butter". But I do think there's a place for a swat on the butt with children, just like there's a place for a correction with dogs.
Dekka - a collar, regardless of brand, that only has eight levels is not a decent e-collar. If a person is going to use the lowest level of stimulation possible then you have to have a collar that increases sensation in tiny levels. Any collar with less than 100 levels is not appropriate for the type of training described here.
Even if a trainer intends to never use a shock collar, it is important to understand the concepts and methods used. The low level stimulation training is not the e-collar training of old. When I see people post ranting and raving about how harsh the collar is, I know immediately that they are not knowledgable about the modern e-collar and the use of it.
Like I said, I'm not recommending it. But there is so much blatant misinformation being thrown around about the use of these collars by people who don't understand the concepts of using low level stimulation as a negative reinforcement. Please, people, research and understand before just going with a gut reaction. Proper use of a collar like this - for particular cases - is NOT cruel or inhumane.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I agree that Leerburg and Koehler are not good resources. Use of the e-collar as a purely positive punishment, as a high level "zap", is a huge mistake in most circumstances. If a person is going to use a tool like an e-collar, they need to ALWAYS keep in mind what they are using and not EVER take it lightly. I certainly don't encourage people to run out and buy one.
There ARE levels on the collar that are merely a tingle - much like what you would feel with the TENS units that use electrical stimulation to help alleviate arthritis pain. And there are levels on the collars that are quite painful. I'm not going to pretend that a collar is pleasant in any way. But it also doesn't have to be really painful. "Tapping" is a way to describe the sensation - if you take the first two fingers of one hand and tap them on the back of the other hand you will get an idea of how it feels. Vary the intensity of the tapping and you can change it from a slight sensation to something very uncomfortable. The proper use is NOT at a level that creates a yelp or other pain reaction.
I don't use an e-collar as a shortcut. In my case, it was after nearly a year and a half of consistent training using positive methods. It was a matter of "keep the dog on leash forever" or "let her run and play and have a good time". I know that many will say "keep her on leash" - but none of you know my dog nor do you know what her needs are. Exercise is vitally important to this dog. The collar gives her freedom and safety that she would otherwise not have.
As far as the "would you put a shock collar on a child" question - in all honesty, that's a pretty ludicrous question. I wouldn't put a collar and leash on a child at all. I also wouldn't have my dog sit at the dinner table and ask "please pass the butter". But I do think there's a place for a swat on the butt with children, just like there's a place for a correction with dogs.
Dekka - a collar, regardless of brand, that only has eight levels is not a decent e-collar. If a person is going to use the lowest level of stimulation possible then you have to have a collar that increases sensation in tiny levels. Any collar with less than 100 levels is not appropriate for the type of training described here.
Even if a trainer intends to never use a shock collar, it is important to understand the concepts and methods used. The low level stimulation training is not the e-collar training of old. When I see people post ranting and raving about how harsh the collar is, I know immediately that they are not knowledgable about the modern e-collar and the use of it.
Like I said, I'm not recommending it. But there is so much blatant misinformation being thrown around about the use of these collars by people who don't understand the concepts of using low level stimulation as a negative reinforcement. Please, people, research and understand before just going with a gut reaction. Proper use of a collar like this - for particular cases - is NOT cruel or inhumane.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Ok, I just tapped my finger on the back of my other hand. I actually tried in on my wrists too, where I have a little tendonitis. I varied the intensity but never to the point of pain. It actually felt good! Like a massage. It helped relax me, kind of like accupuncture. I think it could be used as a massage or relaxing device. Or a reward. I still don't get how something that feels so good can make a dog stop doing whatever he is doing. You'd think he'd keep doing what he was doing so he could get more of those little mini massages.
Know why i don't like cats? Cause i got no respect for an animal that doesnt come when it is called. I wish i could find the words to explain that if your dog doesn't come when you call, it is because you have not crossed that line your still in my dog is training me instead of i am training my dog. It is so much harder to start obedience when a dog is not a baby anymore, but that trust bond must be met by both sides. I wish someone could put it in better words then i can and maybe it would be more obvious why teaching by anything other then postive methods is wrong. THat doest mean let the dog get away with things it means you approach the sitiuation differently. Making it obvious to them what you want. AS in the hallway lesson. THere is no other way for the puppy/dog to go but to you. WHat a joy yay love the dog he came to you. DO it enough in similar situations and he will get the point. That do not give a command you do not enforce is something i wish half the parents around me whould learn. THe dog gets the same message the child does. Maybe he means it, and maybe he doesnt' so sit should always result in a fanny on the floor. YOu keep at it daily and the dog is gonna start thinking of you as his leader, and that he is a part of the team. It is the most wonderful thing in the world when a dog reaches that point and if he doesn't come when you call, you aren't there yet.
My cats always come when I call them. They also greet me at the door every time I come home. I have been doing fire drills with my cats for years. They also hop on my lap when I invite them. The problem with people with cats is they don't take the time to treat them like real family members. A cat will adapt. You treat him like he's not supposed to learn a thing or respond or expect any real affection and he won't. Cats get a bum rap when, just as with dogs, they are a product of how you treat them. Frankly, cats are a great deal when it comes to how much affection you get in return for comparatively VERY little work.
u kinda missed my points. Geez Catlovers. Eddie my cat comes when he thinks i have food. Or if he thinks the door is being shut for the last time. But i have seen him fake sleeping when he was called, or under a bush focused on something. he comes when he feels like it cause "all places are the same to him".
Eddie my cat comes when he thinks i have food. Or if he thinks the door is being shut for the last time. But i have seen him fake sleeping when he was called, or under a bush focused on something. he comes when he feels like it cause "all places are the same to him".
Dizzy, that doesn't surprise me. They really do learn well if they are shown. I think cats are fabulous because you really have to EARN their respect, don't you agree? Once you do, there is no end to what they are capable of learning and doing. Their little sccret hiearchy is very interesting too, that's why I love multiple cats in a house.
