Pinch/Prong Collars?

He does not respond to ANY flat collar. AT ALL. This is the point I am trying to make. No, I will not admit that I am hurting him. I will admit that it is a discomfort to him and that is why he listens when it is on. That is why is works much better than a flat collar. Flat collars obviously do not do that for him. If I was hurting him I would not use it, simple as that. I even put it on myself to make sure and yes, I tugged hard. Harder than he has ever tugged on it. It also has a lot to do with making sure it fits properly. A loose collar will actually pinch them when they tug.

Have you thought about why your dog won't listen to you without the assistance of an aversive?

I realize that my post back there is very long and no one wants to take the time to read it. But I explained in so many words the answer to that. Dogs become disengaged when training is a drugery or is uncomfortable. They lose interest and drive, they can't think, they're confused by pain and discomfort. They're too busy thinking about what's happening to them to be able to think. Even if there is no pain...just handling them is distracting to them. It adds too many variables to the situation. I'm not going to write another long post because I guess it means nothing to anyone. But I know first hand from working with lots of dogs that if they're made participants in their training by engaging them instead of forcing them, they become smarter and much more willing. There ARE ways to teach down. There are several different tricks one can use. It's a matter of learning how.

Dogs can learn things fairly quickly when they're motivated and engaged so they're doing more than half the work themselves. When you have to manipulate the dog into position, it's like taking the hands of a 12 year old child and making him put the proper puzzle pieces of an entire puzzle into place rather than giving a hint of help and letting him think and do it by himself. He gets confident and his brain gets exericised. It's no different for dogs.

To answer your question, I think it is probably because this is the way he was trained once before. Before I got him he went through a ton of training by a trainer that was a man. He was also trained in czech. When we got him we had to try and retrain him in english because the trainer never sent us the sheet with all the commands on it. I tried looking them up on the internet but there are so many czech words for just one word that it was nearly impossible. Not only that but we didn't know what the commands were in english to even translate. He will listen a bit more to my husband, but not at all to me. Its my dog and I am the one that is training him for FR, I need him to listen to me.

I must have missed your post, Carrie. But I very much respect you and your opinion and I think you know that by now as much as I bug you and Doc about things.

My question, however, was for Save to answer about her dog specifically.

The reason being is that hubby and I bought a prong collar for Buddy way back when. I put it on him and it took me a matter of seconds to get it right back off of him and I was in tears.

For me, it is NOT a proper training tool just for whatever. If your dog can't walk in a well mannered way, find out why. If your dog can't go to a down, find out why. Find your dogs motivation instead of using force and mechanisms that cause pain.

I'd much rather someone put forth the effort to try to understand me and find a humane way to communicate with me and teach me something than to use unnecessary force.

Just my 0.02.

I know I said I was done but I had to throw this in too.

If a person is going to use physical punishment, I'd almost rather see a scruff grab than a yank on the prong collar. My reason for this is because people know exactly how much pressure they're putting on the dog. To me, yanking on a device around the dog's neck with a leash in between you is detaching people way too much from what they're doing to the dog. Not to say that people shouldn't use prong collars ever, I just think that often times people take for granted what the dog puts up with. When you're hands-on, you're undoubtedly going to be more conscious of what you're doing and how the dog is responding. Then again, a hand doesn't cause as much pain as metal spikes and might not be effective enough to force a dog into a down. Really.. People don't want to know what they're doing. I'm not saying you are totally ignorant of what you're doing, Bullied, but the fact that you say it doesn't hurt him speaks volumes.

I've used pinch collars and choke chains on my own dogs, but no correction was more effective than placing a hand on their side and firmly telling them "stop that, NOW." Again, I do have Border Collies and they're generally very biddable, but this also works for my high-strung, stubborn-as-hell Papillon who would give a Shiba a run for their money in terms of independence and willfulness. No dog needs to be yanked around the neck in order to interpret something as a correction.

I will not, however, correct a dog for a behavior which is insufficiently trained. A dog not lying down during distractions is not a dog that's blowing you off or being rebellious. It's a dog that has not been proofed properly under that kind of distraction. Instead of using the pinch collar to force Magnus into a down, you could be teaching him that the sooner he lies down, the sooner he'll be able to do another bite. That kind of motivation is very, very powerful and it will give you a more reliably trained dog, IMO, than telling him that he needs to lie down OR ELSE!

Thanks Nicole. I'm sorry I butted in like that. I was thinking more in general terms rather than specific.

Basically, it takes aproximately two weeks to modify behavior in most things with dogs. Another point I think I should make is that your cues, whether they're in Czech, English, German or Swahili don't make much difference in whether your dog "listens" to you or not...unless you're only relying on language to communicate with your dog. Cues aren't what drive behavior anyhow. Reinforcment is what really drives behavior. So, if you can elicit a behavior by other means; luring, hand signals or by capturing behavior...whatever.... the cues can be added later. They can be changed too.

Most dogs have learned hands signals or other body language very easily and before any verbal had any meaning to them by luring....body language etc and sufficient reinforcement for correct responses.

For example, when one teaches down, one normally takes a tasty treat and gets the dog into a sit, which he's already learned and then holds it down in front of the dog and a little out right along the floor. That lowering of the hand is gradually made more subtle as the dog begins to connect the lowering hand with the behavior and lies down more and more easily as time goes by. (I usually throw in a little fun by treating this as a game, complete with my happy voice) So, this body language, this showing the dog generally has more meaning to the dog than the verbal cue, not only because it's the first thing he learns and therefore has had a longer history of this visual cue being used, but because dogs learn better by visual than by verbal. It's how their brain is wired. They're just very visually oriented.

So, the reason your dog is not "listening" to you is not in a big part due to the language mix-up IMO. Those behaviors can still be elicted or captured and/or re-taught or refreshed with whatever kind of cue you want to stick in there. The dog wouldn't have to have a verbal cue at all. That's just one extra way to communicate with him, but it's not what makes him do the behavior. Dogs don't understand language the way we do. They make associations with words and behavior when they're reinforced in a timely way for correct responses. But they can just as easily make associations with something else as a cue.

What's going to cause the behavior to happen, for the dog to "listen" to you is by your showing him what you mean, for you to find out what motivates him (something does) and when he gives a correct response, he needs a valueable (to him) reinforcer immediately. He needs a strong history of reinforcement and many repititions to stop him from guessing at what you mean. I recommend clicker training. It helps with your timing which is imperative.

When a dog has been trained with a lot of aversives, he is not as well able to learn HOW to learn. Aversives make a dog rather dull IMO and detached. They're not "with it." They're a little bit nervous because they're somewhat in that state of readiness, where their brain is on the edge of producing hormones for flight or fight. Even if it's not severe aversives. Pulling on a dog's neck with a prong collar to force him into a down position, I imagine to be somewhat unpleasant...enough so, that the dog learns that training isn't particularly fun. He's trying to figure out how to keep those prongs from poking him instead of trying to throw out the correct behavior. (he's guessing at first what behavior he should try.)

Conversely, when a dog has nothing to worry about, what's going to happen to him, he is more attentive to his owner, he's more curious and curiosity is necessary for learning. When dogs are trained with aversives, they are often afraid to throw new behaviors for fear of punishment and this is not condusive to learning.

I understand that a lot of people figure that if the dog is "trained" and he still doesn't do it right, then he deserves an pain or discomfort, intimidation, whatever...(there are many such ways to punish a dog.) They think he's being stubborn. (a human thing, not a dog thing. Dogs don't know the ins and outs of our value system) Well, if he's trained well, he WILL do it right. So, that doesn't make much sense to me. If he doesn't do it, he needs more practice. If he's thoroughly trained, he'll do it right. When things don't go right with dogs, it is typical to blame the dog. Dogs learn just the way they're suppose to learn. It's all laid out. It is we, who fail to do things just right at times. I catch myself all the time doing things wrong. "woops...no wonder...." LOL. They're on schedule. There's nothing wrong with their brains or morality. They're just dogs.

It's about finding an adequate motivator, reinforcing behavior you want consistantly and showing the dog what you mean, making it worth his while to comply. It's about good timing and delivery of reward. If it's good enough and it works for him, he WILL do it.

I recommend you find some good training books which will help you. My fav is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. But there are other great ones too.

That is all nice but not very practical for french ring. You don't start teaching the bit command and the obedience at the same time. You have to first have your dog under complete control. If it takes me to put that prong on him for a little bit a day to train him I will. Again. I DO NOT tug hard or "pop" the prong collar. Once the collar was on he never even tried to run to the end of the leash.

I guess you all have your training methods and I have mine. The same training methods my trainers have been using for 10 years. And I must say their dogs are amazing.

Again, using it properly does not hurt them. You can say that is speaks volumes about me and that is fine. I am not going to repeat myself again. I tried it on and pulled, it was uncomfortable but not painful. If I ever, for one second thought my dog was in pain due to the collar I would not be using.

At least I now know how people are so against the use of these collars. Unfortunately I am not just training for basic obedience here. If I was, I would find another way, but as someone already said. In FR the dog has to be attentive and under control 100% of the time.

Again, that all in a perfect world is great when training for obedience. FR is much different. I think I will stick to what I have been taught by my trainers with 9 dogs, all of them with FR titles. If the methods we are using are so useless etc, etc, etc, Im pretty sure their dogs wouldn't respond as they do.

Again. This collar is not a forever thing. It is only for training until I don't need it anymore and so far it is working excellent. Im already starting to train a bit without it.

Thank you for all your suggestions though. Its appreciated.

Personally I dont think you should feel the need to justify your training methods. Everyone does whats suited for the dogs they work with. People will disagree with you but guys remember there is a difference between offering a differing opinion,. and preaching

Savethebullies has already explained that different methods dont work for her dog or this sport and she is sticking to the prong. You have stated your opinion, leave it at that and let her do her own thing. I think its awesome that she has taken the time to do more work with her dog than just a bit of obedience and I applaud her greatly for it. I also applaud her for going ahead and trying different training methods to find the ones that suit her and her dog best instead of just going by what everyone else says about things. People have told me that escargo is disgusting and for the longest time I wouldnt try it. But then finally one day I did and you know what? Its delicious! Not everybody (or dog) is the same so not one method will work for all, not all dogs respond to stimulus the same. A perfect example is with my own two dogs, I wave a treat and OC is performing every trick he knows hoping he gets something right to earn that food reward (a slight exaggeration, but you get my drift) whereas Ronan may pick up his head and look at what all the commotion is about but soon loses interest and goes back to sleep. Another example is with my BF''s AmBulls. Marina respects the prong collar and behaves at her very best (although thats really not much different from when she is on any other collar - she''s an awesome dog!) whereas Tank actually leans into the prong collar and pulls more!!!! (he enjoys the feel of it - its fitted properly and sits at the proper spot too) But if he is on the choke chain he behaves at his best.

I find nothing wrong with the prong collar either, like Savethebullies has said over and over and over again, it doesnt HURT the dog!

We all know that some people hate the prong collar, some people love it, and others are indifferent to it. We know your reasons for it. Lets just leave it at that (good ol' agree to disagree thing) and support Savethebullies in her quest to further her dogs training and working ability. AND I''d also like to add a PICS PLEASE!!!! in there too for good measure....

OC....the OP made this thread and asked what people thought of the prong collar. I assumed she was asking for opinions. She also complained that her dog doesn't "listen" to her and I assumed she was having trouble and offered my opinion based on my education of canine learning behavior. You can't have a dog "obey" and lie down without training it. She is talking about fr. apparently, they want the dog to be under control with discomfort or pain and do certain things but don't want to train him to do them. ? That just doesn't make sense to me. I must be missing something. I'll keep my opinions to myself here on where this thread is concerned. I see I wasted my time. Why do people ask for opinions and state that they're having problems with their dog responding to them.... and then insist that what they're doing is working? All in the same breath? Oh well....I'm just confused and addled in my old age I guess. Carry on. Don't pay any attention to me. :lol-sign:

I asked for your opinions on prong collars, not your opinions of my training methods. How am I not training him?? I also posted this thread the day I started using it. I have now found they work very well.. Also I will insist that they work because if they didn't work how come I can now get him in the down position without the collar. I only had to use if for a short time until he got the hang of it. I do not need it for that anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you have all said. It it very nice to hear of other peoples training methods.

OC thank you. I also completely agree that not everything will work the same for each person or more importantly, each dog. I have a chihuahua that knows about 20 commands (not including basic obedience commands). I trained her without a collar or a leash and with treat rewards. That works for her but it does not work for Magnus.

Thanks again everyone.

Bullied, STOP twisting my words. I said it speaks volumes about your understanding of the pinch collar, not about you. This is not an attack on your character or anything like that, so stop interpreting it that way. I am attacking your training method. Why on earth would you correct a dog for a command it doesn't know.

Your pinch collar works even when it is off because you have a soft dog who is afraid of being hurt. Not the tail-tucked, ears-back, urinating kind of afraid, but afraid nonetheless. There is a quieter, less obvious fear that we as humans feel all the time, and I'm convinced that dogs do too. When we drive, we're VERY careful to go the speed limit around cops because we've been punished for going over the speed limit. It doesn't matter what car we're in, when we hear police sirens or see a police car we're going to immediately go the speed limit. We aren't going to scream and cry and shake and drool, but we're worried nonetheless. Operant conditioning at its finest, and this applies to dogs as well IMO. Do you want a dog that's heeding your commands out of fear of punishment, or because he WANTS to work with you?

If your dog is not under control why are you even thinking about training for bitesport in the near future? :yikes: Especially a Pit Bull type. I'd say a good ol' regular obedience class would be better for Magnus until he's a little more solid on his commands. FR sounds like fun but IMO it isn't something you guys are ready for yet in terms of obedience.

I'm not telling you how to train, but as usual I have to throw in my .02 because I do not think this is okay or fair to the dog. No I don't think it's abuse but . . . There are so many other ways to teach basic obedience and none require the use of force or pain, and yes they work just as well! I guess my dog isn't a good example because he's not a "stubborn" breed (waiting for that excuse to be used) but I get virtually 100% obedience from him and he's never had a pinch collar on. He's never been forced into any command. He's been corrected for non-compliance but it was in the form of a verbal reprimand rather than a yank on a collar. I've also worked with shelter dogs and, yes, Pit Bulls using the methods I talk about and these dogs learn how to be completely reliable on their obedience commands in a shelter environment. So think about it before you say it's impossible.


Why can't I leave this thread alone?

Right. So why are you teaching your dog obedience and the FR at the same time? If your dog will not go "down" when given the command, he does not have basic obedience skills.

I have to agree and say that this is exactly what I was thinking. Why would anyone want to BEGIN with something like FR, it just makes no sense.

One more thing, FR and Schutz are being taught all the time without the use of prongs. Relationship, understanding, obedience, control and then competition/sport....not the other way around.
It seems that all too often its the people who have problem dogs who start to reach for the sky instead of keeping their feet firmly planted and working on the basics. This is not the first instance that I've seen here where a dog was put into a position it was clearly not ready or suited for. Obedience (basic) seems a much more appropriate place for this dog so that the "need" for a prong would be non-existent.

We have clubs here (most actually) that will not allow such novice dogs in for that very reason. There's something to be said for earning a place by doing the work first.

I agree. If the dog doesn't have the ob part down there is no use in starting the bite work. Most sports like that have you do the ob part until the dog is reliable then you can move onto the other disciplines. If your dog won't down on command without a collar tug (regardless of collar type) how is it going to perform the more advanced commands the off leash bite work requires.

Perhaps she is just training with a FR instructor for now and they will solidify the OB commands before moving on to the bitework Still call it FR training simply because it is at the FR training facility with a FR training instructor and is building towards doing FR...or maybe i''m just crazy....

The Sch club I visited didn't want a prong on the dog because it could hold a dog's drive back by giving them correction when you don't want correction to be given. I can see using it for certain situations on certain dogs who need their agitation built up, but even then it would probably be best used on an as needed basis.

Most clubs will allow novice dogs. They just don't participate at the same level. A beginner to bite work isn't going after "bad guys" the 1st day, they are getting used to the sleeves and doing exercises to build and use their drives.

Do reputable bitesport clubs even offer obedience lessons? I was always under the impression that the dog needed to be sufficiently obedience trained before starting any bitework.

Yes, some do offer BO and many require a bare minimum of BO before registration in the FR or Schutz.

It's funny but even my Canine Einstein class has prerequisites so that people who don't have the foundation don't slow the rest of the group.