Pinch/Prong Collars?

[DanL]

Perhaps she is just training with a FR instructor for now and they will solidify the OB commands before moving on to the bitework Still call it FR training simply because it is at the FR training facility with a FR training instructor and is building towards doing FR...or maybe i''m just crazy....

That could be- but I'd think that experienced trainers, even in a bite sport who may use adversives more as a rule than an exception, are going to want a dog learning it's basics without a corrective collar. Teach, then reinforce. Don't teach by correcting/reinforcing something the dog doesn't understand. I've never taught Gunnar a single task by using a prong collar and I don't need it to reinforce him doing any of those tasks. What good is a prong if you are recalling your dog and putting him in a down or sit when he's 50 yards from you? It's physically impossible. We only use it on walks and it's my own fault he needs it for that, I allowed him to develop bad habits while walking. It's funny that he'll do a fairly good heel off leash but as soon as the leash goes on without the prong he feels the need to pull.

 

[DanL]

RD I'm not familiar with French Ring, but in Sch, there is an entire segment based on OB, and that is taught along with the other disciplines. The dog earns it's BH 1st, which is like an AKC CD title before it can earn anything that involves tracking or protection. Not to say that it can't be learning the other 2 facets, but it's done based on the dog's ability. A dog that can't listen to basic commands isn't going to be doing any difficult bite work or tracking. It's all based on obedience.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Perhaps she is just training with a FR instructor for now and they will solidify the OB commands before moving on to the bitework Still call it FR training simply because it is at the FR training facility with a FR training instructor and is building towards doing FR...or maybe i''m just crazy....

Nope you are NOT at all crazy. You are EXACTLY right. We are trying to get him to the point to start training in FR. But yes, it is with an FR trainer on and FR field.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yes, some do offer BO and many require a bare minimum of BO before registration in the FR or Schutz.

It's funny but even my Canine Einstein class has prerequisites so that people who don't have the foundation don't slow the rest of the group.

That is the thing there. There is NO club. They moved from BC two years ago and are wanting to start another one here. There aren't many people where I live and so they don't mind me and two other people coming out and helping us get started.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Nope you are NOT at all crazy. You are EXACTLY right. We are trying to get him to the point to start training in FR. But yes, it is with an FR trainer on and FR field.

And they feel it necessary to train basic obedience with a prong?

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yeah, I suppose so, when the dog had already been trained once in the same manner and will not respond to any other form. And it is not just for basic obedience. He needs to get used to using the collars for correction once we get more into the FR side of it.

Don't thing that I am just using the prong collar, he also gets rewards.

I still don't get how using a prong is not training him? Seems to be working pretty well for me.

Also its nice to have someone agree with me that when the prong is used correctly and properly fitted it does not hurt the dog. Thanks OC.

Edited to add:

The reason the prong was used for the down command is because that is a huge command in FR. He needs to know it.

 

[RD]

So he was trained initially with a prong collar to lie down? Maybe that's the source of your problems, rather than just blaming it on the dog's wilfulness. He is insufficiently trained. The prong is "training" him, but it isn't doing anything for the behavior. It just turns the down command into a threat. I completely agree with DanL. Teach first what you DO want, rather than correcting the dog for not knowing that. (Imagine your teacher in grade school slapping you for not understanding calculus! How DARE you?)

I don't correct for non-compliance unless the dog has known and responded to a command for a LONG time. Seems to me that Magnus barely knows it now.

when the prong is used correctly and properly fitted it does not hurt the dog.

Then why does he go into a down the instant the prong tightens? Does it magically penetrate into his brain and send "lie down" signals to every part of his body? Or does he do what all animals do, and lean away from what's hurting him?

 

[DanL]

The reason the prong was used for the down command is because that is a huge command in FR. He needs to know it.

It's a huge command in any dog sport, and a huge command for people who don't do sports. To me, a reliable down, recall, and stay are really the only 3 commands any dog needs to know to make it a "good" dog. They CAN be taught without a prong. You need to find out what makes your dog tick- a toy, a ball, a treat, a tug, hugs and kisses, whatever your dog goes nuts for, and use that to reward for doing what you want. You'll get better results, the dog will WANT to do a down because he'll know he's getting a reward. The prong is not a reward and shouldn't be used to teach a command, it should be used to enforce a non compliant dog once they have been proven to know the command under distraction.

 

[otch1]

Hello! I admit I was not able to go thru all posts, so my apologies if I'm repeating info already given. The original post "what do you think about prong collars", followed by the reason your trainer put your dog on one... "we are training for FR sport and my dog is kind of a knot head". Use a Halti or Gentle leader for basic obedience training for this dog for the added control that you do not have on a flat buckle collar. Secure a "sit", "down", "off" and correct heelwork on this equipment. When you're ready to move to FR training, you will use a chain common to this sport (very, very large link) less chance of collapsing a trachea or a harness, so your dog can put his weight into it with no correction to the neck. Undesirable to use a prong collar, especially in early stages of training as it will inhibit drive. You don't want to give conflicting messeges to the dog. This old school type of training, while it generally "works", is also the cause of some rather serious behavioral problems some owners experience with some dogs, down the road. Encouraging this kind of "drive", combined with adrenaline, and then pain, all at the same time, certainly requires an incredibly stable dog, to not backfire in some instances. I've had clients come to me with very nasty bite marks from their own dogs, these bites having occured during FR training while the dog was on a prong. Be aware, it can be very confusing for the dog. It can backfire. Use a head collar first for the added control this particular dog needs and make your dogs execution of obedience commands so solid, a prong is not nessecary when you move onto more advanced training.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

The reason a prong collar works when used properly is because it is uncomfortable to him. It does not have to hurt to make it work.

I have tried a halti. It did not work. He pulled.

From what I understad the common collar used in this sport is a prong.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

The common collar used in this sport is a prong.

But I thought you were just doing basic obedience right now?

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Well kind of yes. For the first couple of weeks and then we are going to start on agility. He needs to get used to having the collar on.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

*shakes head*

I really suggest you complete basic obedience with Magnus before starting any other rigorous training. You two need to come to a level of respect and understanding before advancing to something so high caliber like FR.

I hope you know what you're doing. Good luck. Keep Magnus safe.

*I'm done*

 

[DanL]

IF Magnus is even capable of doing FR. Not all dogs can do that sport, and a bully type breed isn't bred for human aggression that a FR dog would need to display, so if anything, it could be harder to train him in those aspects.

 

[otch1]

There's no differenciating between "discomfort" and "pain" for the dog, it is basically the same. It's simply a matter of degrees of discomfort and this depends on that particular dogs tolerance for pain. I have used prong collars. You are right, it is very common to use them in certain types of training. I am simply telling you what "can" and has happened for some individuals. Now a days, there are other equipment alternatives in this type of training. My preferance is to approach this with the mind set that you are teaching the dog what to do, verses what not to do. A prong collar is simply a deterant/devise. It can take away some of the thought proccess required in learning an exercise, in my opinion. And when clients are chosing to do particular sports like these with their dogs, I generally encourage them to make sure they have a very stable, responsive, focused dog first. Responsive because it's very, very motivated to respond willingly to owners commands verses responding appropriatly because it's learned to avoid discomfort for non-compliance. (I.e. never moving onto this kind of training, if your dog's still a "knot head". Lol) Again, I have used prong collars in the past. I would not use one in this instance and certainly not when you move onto agility training. It can give very conflicting messeges to the dog, and cause anxiety when you want real "drive". If a Halti, GL, martingale collar weren't effective, for basic obedience training and your dog has no behavioral problems, the equipment probably was just being used incorrectly at the time. If you're being told you have to use a prong collar, it really is as a last resort to control the dog or sometimes is used as a short cut. I think you may have that in the back of you mind about your particular dog or you wouldn't have had any question or doubt about it in the first place?

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Oh wow now I shouldn't be doing FR with Magnus? I have full and complete trust in my trainers.

The trainers discussed with me that we have to get to a certain point with him before we can move on. I completly understand that.

How is there not a difference between pain and discomfort for a dog? That I don't think can be said as a fact.

The reason I had asked about prongs in the first place is because I had heard people say a lot of bad things about them and I had never tried one. Now that I have I do not and will not regret it.

Also, I wouldn't say that the prong is being used as a last resort for all of FR. That is what a lot of FR people use. Yes it was a last resort for the down command.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Oh wow now I shouldn't be doing FR with Magnus?

No one said that.

Dan said this:

IF Magnus is even capable of doing FR. Not all dogs can do that sport, and a bully type breed isn't bred for human aggression that a FR dog would need to display, so if anything, it could be harder to train him in those aspects.

IMO, if you can not get your dog to a down without the use of an aversive, your dog should not be competing in FR. You must have ultimate control over your dog and you don't even have that right now with basic obedience.

Magnus started training for French Ring the past weekend and they asked me to get one... It's just that he is a knothead and that seems to be an amazing way of training him.

You said this in the beginning and then said you were just doing BO and now you're going back to FR. I think you need to prioritize. Get BO down first. Then inflict pain on your dog to teach a "sport".

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

No one said that.

IMO, if you can not get your dog to a down without the use of an aversive, your dog should not be competing in FR. You must have ultimate control over your dog and you don't even have that right now with basic obedience.

You just said it. Yes, that is what we are doing, we are trying to get him to that point.

You said this in the beginning and then said you were just doing BO and now you're going back to FR. I think you need to prioritize.

As explained once before we are training with FR trainers at a FR field. Right now we needed him to know the down command and get him to pay attention. When are at that point then we will start FR training.

Basically what I can say, is this.

We needed him to learn to pay attention and to learn the down command. Using the prong collar is working wonders. I don't even need the prong for that anymore. Obviously me and the collar did the job without inflicting pain on him. Some methods work for other people and their dogs and that is great, all the power to them.....this one worked for me.

 

[Spiritus]

A very important component to Ring-sport is obedience. Without a complete foundation in obedience, there is a risk of lacking control in later exercises. The fact that Savethebullies has started TRAINING with a Ring Club tells me that they ARE working on obedience. Obedience first, then on to the other stuff. Teaching Ring obedience is slightly different than other competitive obedience. The heel must be very presise, in a very specific position, with a very specific look. The dog must also be able to heel backwards. The down is a sphynx position down with intent attention on the handler. The sit is very precise, again, with complete attention on the handler. People who train and trial in ring start their young dogs with this kind of precision. Sloppiness at any point can lead to failure later.

Savethebullies - have FUN, work with your dog, listen to your trainers at Ring. If it's a good club, they won't steer you wrong. I look forward to hearing how things go in the future.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

A very important component to Ring-sport is obedience. Without a complete foundation in obedience, there is a risk of lacking control in later exercises. The fact that Savethebullies has started TRAINING with a Ring Club tells me that they ARE working on obedience. Obedience first, then on to the other stuff. Teaching Ring obedience is slightly different than other competitive obedience. The heel must be very presise, in a very specific position, with a very specific look. The dog must also be able to heel backwards. The down is a sphynx position down with intent attention on the handler. The sit is very precise, again, with complete attention on the handler. People who train and trial in ring start their young dogs with this kind of precision. Sloppiness at any point can lead to failure later.

Savethebullies - have FUN, work with your dog, listen to your trainers at Ring. If it's a good club, they won't steer you wrong. I look forward to hearing how things go in the future.

Ahhh, *breaths out*, thank you for explaining FR to them. And thank you for understanding.