I used to like them when I first started training, now I think they're mainly unnecessary. There a few caveats to that statement, but precious few (mainly concerning my size and teaching a ginormous dog how to properly walk...haven't run into many yet that I can't use tile floors to my advantage and don't have to use the collar) I try to avoid recommending and/or using them as much as possible these days, though if the choice comes between me showing a client how to properly use the collar and then showing them how to wean off of it later on, or them go somewhere else that will be content to have them keep the dog on a collar for the rest of it's life, I'd rather the client stays with me.
S
The reason I am asking is because I have never used one. Magnus started training for French Ring the past weekend and they asked me to get one. I don't see a problem with it for now but we will not be using it forever. It's just that he is a knothead and that seems to be an amazing way of training him. I have seen great improvements with his attentiveness and such since even just this weekend.
I know of a man in this area who competes in FR. He doesn't use pinches/chokes etc.
But I think he is the minority in the aspect of the sport. From what I've learned the past few weeks while speaking with many of the reputable SchH or ring sport people, is pinches are used often to create drive/intensity.
Much like many field trialers use shock collars.
It's your own personal choice as always
I guess it all depends on HOW it's being used and why.
The average joe pet owner isn't amping their dog Lassie up with that drive and intensity that SchH or even more so FR people do.
Good luck though! From what I hear FR sport is a blast!
But I think he is the minority in the aspect of the sport. From what I've learned the past few weeks while speaking with many of the reputable SchH or ring sport people, is pinches are used often to create drive/intensity.
Much like many field trialers use shock collars.
It's your own personal choice as always
I guess it all depends on HOW it's being used and why.
The average joe pet owner isn't amping their dog Lassie up with that drive and intensity that SchH or even more so FR people do.
Good luck though!
From what I hear FR sport is a blast!Some dogs respond well to it, others simply dont need it at all. As long as there is proper training when using one I have no problem with it Ive used them a couple times when taking a large/powerful dog out for a walk for the first time if I know they have a history of pulling or lunging at things.
Ive used them a couple times when taking a large/powerful dog out for a walk for the first time if I know they have a history of pulling or lunging at things.
They use prongs in ring because Ring is about 100% precision, 100% attention 100% of the time. They are very useful tools in the hands of someone who knows how to use them well. I know many dogs that get so very, VERY excited when they see their prong collar come out. They know it's working time.
You will also eventually need to purchase a basket muzzle for your dog, as there are things in Ring that they must do muzzled. Again, the dogs that I have seen that do Ring LOVE Ring, and when they see the Ring tools come out, the excitement level rises exponentially.
I wish we had a Ring club around here.....
You will also eventually need to purchase a basket muzzle for your dog, as there are things in Ring that they must do muzzled. Again, the dogs that I have seen that do Ring LOVE Ring, and when they see the Ring tools come out, the excitement level rises exponentially.
I wish we had a Ring club around here.....
I used a prong on Tosca during some of her training, she was just too strong for me, and I spent too much time keeping her pulled back and not enough time training. Also, I felt that a choke chain was just not the right tool as an alternative. I weaned her off it though, but I admit I still use it if we are going somewhere where I am concerned that she might be distracted, places like, say, a parade. She really never seemed to mind that prong at all. It certainly instantly made being able to focus on other things easier.
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You know, I have to step in here and say something that I'm sure some of you will disagree with.
First of all, I'm not 100% against the prong collar. It's a training tool, mostly unneccesary for those who are willing to teach their dogs proper behaviors instead of relying on a collar to provide control.
The prong collar provides pain. That's how it works. The dog pulls (or the person yanks) and the metal prongs poke in and it's uncomfortable and downright painful for some dogs. Because of this, a person gets that "power steering" feeling (although that's a complete misnomer - the dog is responding only from a desire to avoid pain and not because he's learned anything). If you're willing to use pain in your handling of your dog, then a prong collar may be for you.
And before people jump at me - I've used a prong collar, I have prong collars here and I may use one again. I can't say I've used one in a long time, though.
Now, when people start talking about how dogs get excited when they see the prong collar - if that's what you use and the dogs associate the prong collar with actually getting to DO something other than sit around the house, yes that dog will get excited when they see it. Mine get excited when they see the leash. They get excited when I pick up my keys. They have associated certain items with getting to go and do something. This doesn't in any way mean the dog LIKES the prong collar, though. People should be able to understand a dog's association with action (creating excitement) and not assume that the dog LIKES the prong.
It kind of amazes me that people simplify things so much that they think the dog enjoys wearing the prong collar when the entire basis of the prong collar is that it creates pain. It's not the collar itself that they get excited about, it's the actions surrounding the collar.
I may use corrective collars at times but I won't fool myself into thinking the dogs ever enjoy them. If we humans are going to use tools that create pain, we should at least acknowledge that we understand and accept that. It helps keep us from over-using these tools.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
First of all, I'm not 100% against the prong collar. It's a training tool, mostly unneccesary for those who are willing to teach their dogs proper behaviors instead of relying on a collar to provide control.
The prong collar provides pain. That's how it works. The dog pulls (or the person yanks) and the metal prongs poke in and it's uncomfortable and downright painful for some dogs. Because of this, a person gets that "power steering" feeling (although that's a complete misnomer - the dog is responding only from a desire to avoid pain and not because he's learned anything). If you're willing to use pain in your handling of your dog, then a prong collar may be for you.
And before people jump at me - I've used a prong collar, I have prong collars here and I may use one again. I can't say I've used one in a long time, though.
Now, when people start talking about how dogs get excited when they see the prong collar - if that's what you use and the dogs associate the prong collar with actually getting to DO something other than sit around the house, yes that dog will get excited when they see it. Mine get excited when they see the leash. They get excited when I pick up my keys. They have associated certain items with getting to go and do something. This doesn't in any way mean the dog LIKES the prong collar, though. People should be able to understand a dog's association with action (creating excitement) and not assume that the dog LIKES the prong.
It kind of amazes me that people simplify things so much that they think the dog enjoys wearing the prong collar when the entire basis of the prong collar is that it creates pain. It's not the collar itself that they get excited about, it's the actions surrounding the collar.
I may use corrective collars at times but I won't fool myself into thinking the dogs ever enjoy them. If we humans are going to use tools that create pain, we should at least acknowledge that we understand and accept that. It helps keep us from over-using these tools.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Well... Mine get excited for the prong, But will run and hide for a gentle leader. I used a GL on barry for a few straight months and he would just sulk.
As far as the prong not training anything, It seems to have worked with him as i can take barry out with me to stores, etc and he doesn't pull a bit on a flat buckle or a harness.
As far as the prong not training anything, It seems to have worked with him as i can take barry out with me to stores, etc and he doesn't pull a bit on a flat buckle or a harness.
Mel I don't deny that a prong's whole premise is discomfort, but obviously my dog doesn't mind the discomfort if he knows he's going to do something he enjoys. He will also go nuts if I touch his leash, or if I go to the plastic bag holder to get a bag in case he poops while we're out. In the afternoon all I need to do is get up from my desk in the office and he runs to the back door because he knows we're going out to play. A prong is a good training aide for those of us who are not as experienced or gifted as some of the other dog owners here.
I do understand the premise of a prong. For me, at that point, there were Three choices:
1 Choke chain, which I tried, and which caused her, expectedly, to choke.
2. Prong
3. An untrained dog too "pully" for me to control. And to fall. Again. Perhaps succeeding in breaking something next time.
Not all of us are in the profession of training. Some of us are just regular schmucks who love their dogs and need some help along the way. I wrote radar and infra-red tracking software for many years. I wouldn't expect a professional dog trainer to catch onto it very fast. They would need a LOT of help, perhaps someone else to do it for them. But at least their task wouldn't be getting "bigger" by the day while they had to figure it out. I realized my dog was getting bigger and I was not succeeding whenever a dog or a little kid or other major distraction came along for her to herd or jump on, which was often in real life. Given those three choices, I feel I made the right one, else I wouldn't have gotten past the part where I had to keep pulling her back before she dragged me and I got hurt.
1 Choke chain, which I tried, and which caused her, expectedly, to choke.
2. Prong
3. An untrained dog too "pully" for me to control. And to fall. Again. Perhaps succeeding in breaking something next time.
Not all of us are in the profession of training. Some of us are just regular schmucks who love their dogs and need some help along the way. I wrote radar and infra-red tracking software for many years. I wouldn't expect a professional dog trainer to catch onto it very fast. They would need a LOT of help, perhaps someone else to do it for them. But at least their task wouldn't be getting "bigger" by the day while they had to figure it out. I realized my dog was getting bigger and I was not succeeding whenever a dog or a little kid or other major distraction came along for her to herd or jump on, which was often in real life. Given those three choices, I feel I made the right one, else I wouldn't have gotten past the part where I had to keep pulling her back before she dragged me and I got hurt.
About the "pain" or "discomfort" of a prong....
I had mentioned that a prong was a good tool when used properly. When used properly, there is no pain, nor discomfort, except for maybe a puller the first time the prong goes on.
What I mean when I say power steering is that they can feel the slight pressure. Correct use of a prong does not implement pop-corrections. A dog, their first time with one on, might go to the end of the leash once or twice, but after that, they know its there and usually don't (though some heavy pullers might ignore it).
The best thing I can compare it to is a bit in a horses mouth. Typically you start training with a snaffle - a light bit. Sometimes, as horse progresses in training, you need to go to a heavier bit or one of a different shape. One that the horse will feel the slightest change in your hands. This is what a prong is like. The dog can actually feel the collar cues, not in an uncomfortable way, but just be able to feel that there is a cue. Power steering. The slightest cue is felt.
Correct usage does not inflict pain. If you think about it, anything around the dog's neck keeping it from where it wants to go has to be uncomfortable. The key is that we are teaching the dog that it WANTS to be with us. I believe that dogs get used to the pressure on their necks and learn to ignore it. When I use a prong, it is usually to refine heeling, so that the dog can feel when it is out of position. It is never used to actually correct (in the "pop" correction kind of way). And if I am using it to stop a puller, I use two collars and two leashes the first few times so that the dog does not all of a sudden lunge to the end of the leash and get a hard correction with the prong. One collar is a flat collar, the other the prong. I hold the prong leash slightly looser than the flat collar leash. When the dog hits the end of the flat collar leash, I apply pressure with the prong. It doesn't take them long to figure out not to lunge out...
Every collar out there can be used in a cruel manner. At my dog club, we have a few Kohler-type trainers. A friend of mine has been using an e-collar on his Rottie (very high drive, silly boy) because he was having problems with everything else. The trainers at the club told him that they don't want to see the e-collar in the building anymore. They have no problem with stringing a dog up on a choke chain when it misbehaves, but refuse to allow proper stim usage of an e-collar. I was at a puppy class at a different club where the trainer said that the only collar you can actually give correction to a dog with is a choke collar. What???? Any pop on anything that is attached to something wrapped around your dog's neck IS a correction, no matter what it is that is around that dog's neck.
Any correction based training is about making the dog uncomfortable when it does not do the desired behavior. My stand on prong collars is that when used correctly, an actual correction is never needed....
I had mentioned that a prong was a good tool when used properly. When used properly, there is no pain, nor discomfort, except for maybe a puller the first time the prong goes on.
What I mean when I say power steering is that they can feel the slight pressure. Correct use of a prong does not implement pop-corrections. A dog, their first time with one on, might go to the end of the leash once or twice, but after that, they know its there and usually don't (though some heavy pullers might ignore it).
The best thing I can compare it to is a bit in a horses mouth. Typically you start training with a snaffle - a light bit. Sometimes, as horse progresses in training, you need to go to a heavier bit or one of a different shape. One that the horse will feel the slightest change in your hands. This is what a prong is like. The dog can actually feel the collar cues, not in an uncomfortable way, but just be able to feel that there is a cue. Power steering. The slightest cue is felt.
Correct usage does not inflict pain. If you think about it, anything around the dog's neck keeping it from where it wants to go has to be uncomfortable. The key is that we are teaching the dog that it WANTS to be with us. I believe that dogs get used to the pressure on their necks and learn to ignore it. When I use a prong, it is usually to refine heeling, so that the dog can feel when it is out of position. It is never used to actually correct (in the "pop" correction kind of way). And if I am using it to stop a puller, I use two collars and two leashes the first few times so that the dog does not all of a sudden lunge to the end of the leash and get a hard correction with the prong. One collar is a flat collar, the other the prong. I hold the prong leash slightly looser than the flat collar leash. When the dog hits the end of the flat collar leash, I apply pressure with the prong. It doesn't take them long to figure out not to lunge out...
Every collar out there can be used in a cruel manner. At my dog club, we have a few Kohler-type trainers. A friend of mine has been using an e-collar on his Rottie (very high drive, silly boy) because he was having problems with everything else. The trainers at the club told him that they don't want to see the e-collar in the building anymore. They have no problem with stringing a dog up on a choke chain when it misbehaves, but refuse to allow proper stim usage of an e-collar. I was at a puppy class at a different club where the trainer said that the only collar you can actually give correction to a dog with is a choke collar. What???? Any pop on anything that is attached to something wrapped around your dog's neck IS a correction, no matter what it is that is around that dog's neck.
Any correction based training is about making the dog uncomfortable when it does not do the desired behavior. My stand on prong collars is that when used correctly, an actual correction is never needed....